'A Cloud Still Hangs Over Bhopal'

Good man! :D

The problem is the law of corporations. A company can shuffle some papers and assets and bevcome a whole new entity with a clean slate, or become a wholly owned part of a new company which can shuffle more papers to obscure ownership, liability or both. An individual cannot just go file some papers and take on a whole new identity, leaving the liabilities of the old one behind. Fact is, because of the structure of corporate laws they are held to a much lower standard of legal responsibility than any of us could hope to be. Forget most of the lawyers, they have an obligation to apply the laws to the advantage of their clients. Damn the lobbyists and the pols they buy.

Not the least of which are those lobbying on behalf of the corporate legal profession!

Lawyers paying lawyers to lobby lawyers which WE hire and pay handsomely to make up rules that help people avoid legal responsibility if they can pay the price and which require lawyers to interpret.

Good (insert your preferred Deity here), we must look stupid from space......

The lawyers don't make law though, unless they happen to be elected to public office. That's a common misperception. They have an ethical obligation to use the existing law to the advantage of their clients. Some of them really are scumbags who don't take their oaths seriously, others are just doing their jobs working within a crappy system.

And yes, we probably do look pretty stupid to anybody who doesn't take corporatism for granted.

I'm going to disagree using the example of our Health-care 'reform' being crafted, for the most part, by lobbyists, most of whom have a law degree.
 
The "Superfund" can't even get a program through our politics to clean up Hanford in Washington State... I can't imagine Bhopal India even making their short list.

Sounds like a State Issue.

It should be, but it took a specified visit from then Vice President Gore just to start the negotiations.

Probably because the corporate culprits that are using the law to dodge a responsibility toward funding the 'Super Fund' are not exactly confined to one state.
 
Not the least of which are those lobbying on behalf of the corporate legal profession!

Lawyers paying lawyers to lobby lawyers which WE hire and pay handsomely to make up rules that help people avoid legal responsibility if they can pay the price and which require lawyers to interpret.

Good (insert your preferred Deity here), we must look stupid from space......

The lawyers don't make law though, unless they happen to be elected to public office. That's a common misperception. They have an ethical obligation to use the existing law to the advantage of their clients. Some of them really are scumbags who don't take their oaths seriously, others are just doing their jobs working within a crappy system.

And yes, we probably do look pretty stupid to anybody who doesn't take corporatism for granted.

I'm going to disagree using the example of our Health-care 'reform' being crafted, for the most part, by lobbyists, most of whom have a law degree.

You ever worked the Hill? Now it's been a while, and I can't claim to know the majority of that army, but the corporate lobbyists I knew were mostly MBA's. Go figure. :rolleyes:
 
The lawyers don't make law though, unless they happen to be elected to public office. That's a common misperception. They have an ethical obligation to use the existing law to the advantage of their clients. Some of them really are scumbags who don't take their oaths seriously, others are just doing their jobs working within a crappy system.

And yes, we probably do look pretty stupid to anybody who doesn't take corporatism for granted.

I'm going to disagree using the example of our Health-care 'reform' being crafted, for the most part, by lobbyists, most of whom have a law degree.

You ever worked the Hill? Now it's been a while, and I can't claim to know the majority of that army, but the corporate lobbyists I knew were mostly MBA's. Go figure. :rolleyes:
....
Most lobbyists are college graduates, and many have advanced degrees. Of these advanced degrees, the most prevalent is legal training, with other common backgrounds being communications, teaching, public relations and journalism. ....
AllDC.org
 
The "Superfund" can't even get a program through our politics to clean up Hanford in Washington State... I can't imagine Bhopal India even making their short list.

Sounds like a State Issue.

It should be, but it took a specified visit from then Vice President Gore just to start the negotiations.

Probably because the corporate culprits that are using the law to dodge a responsibility toward funding the 'Super Fund' are not exactly confined to one state.

I'm not sure what you mean.:confused:

Superfund is defined under Federal Statute. The EPA is the regulatory agency. If Al Gore was the VP, then he was Executing his Duty to manage the EPA (hence the name "Executive Branch").

In this example, how are "corporate culprits" able to "dodge" anything?
 
Sounds like a State Issue.

It should be, but it took a specified visit from then Vice President Gore just to start the negotiations.

Probably because the corporate culprits that are using the law to dodge a responsibility toward funding the 'Super Fund' are not exactly confined to one state.

I'm not sure what you mean.:confused:

Superfund is defined under Federal Statute. The EPA is the regulatory agency. If Al Gore was the VP, then he was Executing his Duty to manage the EPA (hence the name "Executive Branch").

In this example, how are "corporate culprits" able to "dodge" anything?

They were the ones holding leash on the lawyers and lobbyists that successfully tied things up in court for no apparent reason save profits in the present quarter and foisting the inevitable off on their children.

Shameful.
 
It should be, but it took a specified visit from then Vice President Gore just to start the negotiations.

Probably because the corporate culprits that are using the law to dodge a responsibility toward funding the 'Super Fund' are not exactly confined to one state.

I'm not sure what you mean.:confused:

Superfund is defined under Federal Statute. The EPA is the regulatory agency. If Al Gore was the VP, then he was Executing his Duty to manage the EPA (hence the name "Executive Branch").

In this example, how are "corporate culprits" able to "dodge" anything?

They were the ones holding leash on the lawyers and lobbyists that successfully tied things up in court for no apparent reason save profits in the present quarter and foisting the inevitable off on their children.

Shameful.

So...you're saying the EPA and Superfund laws have had no effect on industry because "corporate culprits" are able to "dodge" regulators by "holding leash" on the entire judiciary.

Extraordinary!

How is it that this thing can be "tied up," yet, all the forests in North America aren't dieing of Acid Rain, The Cuyahoga River isn't catching fire, and sulfur must be removed from all internal combution fuel used on US roadways to a maximum of 15 ppb?
 
I'm not sure what you mean.:confused:

Superfund is defined under Federal Statute. The EPA is the regulatory agency. If Al Gore was the VP, then he was Executing his Duty to manage the EPA (hence the name "Executive Branch").

In this example, how are "corporate culprits" able to "dodge" anything?

They were the ones holding leash on the lawyers and lobbyists that successfully tied things up in court for no apparent reason save profits in the present quarter and foisting the inevitable off on their children.

Shameful.

So...you're saying the EPA and Superfund laws have had no effect on industry because "corporate culprits" are able to "dodge" regulators by "holding leash" on the entire judiciary.

Extraordinary!

How is it that this thing can be "tied up," yet, all the forests in North America aren't dieing of Acid Rain, The Cuyahoga River isn't catching fire, and sulfur must be removed from all internal combution fuel used on US roadways to a maximum of 15 ppb?

Whoa there Samson! I'm trying desperately hard to NOT make the example I flipped out on to the table be treated as black or white, all or none.

My entire point is that for the most part, the corporate agenda in this country is much more heavily focused on the profits for next quarter than it is considering the next generation. I have also pointed out that the business of harvesting and processing the resources humans demand is becoming more and more accountable with every passing decade, mostly because the people have demanded accountability via government.

I'll be the first to tell you that in spite of our problems and issues, I would rather live now than just about any time in history, assuming an existence limited to Western Civilization.

It's true that the system works, but it is also true that there is money to be made screwing over both people and the planet.
 
My entire point is that for the most part, the corporate agenda in this country is much more heavily focused on the profits for next quarter than it is considering the next generation.

Would you invest in a corporation that returned no profits to you? I wouldn't. In fact, I fervently hope to retire one day and live in a single wide whilst living off the herd of goats I plan to keep. I'm planning to use profits from investments I make today to live this dream.

I have also pointed out that the business of harvesting and processing the resources humans demand is becoming more and more accountable with every passing decade, mostly because the people have demanded accountability via government.

And, this is partially why the NYT must unearth Bhopal after 25 years: It cannot find anything current with which to beat "corporate culprits." But the other motive is to return to the "shameful" good 'ol days for the NYT.
 
Last edited:
My entire point is that for the most part, the corporate agenda in this country is much more heavily focused on the profits for next quarter than it is considering the next generation.

Would you invest in a corporation that returned no profits to you? I wouldn't. In fact, I fervently hope to retire one day and live in a single wide whilst living off the herd of goats I plan to keep. I'm planning to use profits from investments I make today to live this dream.

I have also pointed out that the business of harvesting and processing the resources humans demand is becoming more and more accountable with every passing decade, mostly because the people have demanded accountability via government.

And, this is partially why the NYT must unearth Bhopal after 25 years: It cannot find anything current with which to beat "corporate culprits." But the other motive is to return to the "shameful" good 'ol days for the NYT.

Possibly... but if the site is still poisoning the local environment, especially if it is resulting in sick and dead people, that alone makes the discussion current and newsworthy.

And if nothing else, this discussion has the final redeeming value of 'learning from history'.
 
Last edited:
My entire point is that for the most part, the corporate agenda in this country is much more heavily focused on the profits for next quarter than it is considering the next generation.

Would you invest in a corporation that returned no profits to you? I wouldn't. In fact, I fervently hope to retire one day and live in a single wide whilst living off the herd of goats I plan to keep. I'm planning to use profits from investments I make today to live this dream.

I have also pointed out that the business of harvesting and processing the resources humans demand is becoming more and more accountable with every passing decade, mostly because the people have demanded accountability via government.

And, this is partially why the NYT must unearth Bhopal after 25 years: It cannot find anything current with which to beat "corporate culprits." But the other motive is to return to the "shameful" good 'ol days for the NYT.

Regarding corporate profits: yes, I would be willing to forgo some yield today on a stock, knowing that the company was actively planning to be here and be a responsible and accountable citizen when my grandson inherits the stock.
 
.

And if nothing else, this discussion has the final redeeming value of 'learning from history'.

= Why No One is Reading "News"papers.

:night:

one of the worst disasters happened 25 years ago. this disaster is still ongoing.

a perfect time to report about it again. not only the NYT did this, all over the world on a 25 year anniversary (and other anniversaries) newspapers will report about this.

what is your problem, samson?

you want this buried and slam the NYT? how idiotic
 
.

And if nothing else, this discussion has the final redeeming value of 'learning from history'.

= Why No One is Reading "News"papers.

:night:

one of the worst disasters happened 25 years ago. this disaster is still ongoing.

a perfect time to report about it again. not only the NYT did this, all over the world on a 25 year anniversary (and other anniversaries) newspapers will report about this.

what is your problem, samson?

you want this buried and slam the NYT? how idiotic

My problem is I'd like to read about "NEWS" in a Newspaper. Yep, pretty wild concept, but apparently, based on the NYT and other so-called "Newspapers" failing subscribership, I'm not the only one that would prefer to have 25 year old events published in History Texts.

But there's a bigger issue than my problem: Yours.

You seem to be quite satisfied that declining organizations like the NYT are trying to survive off stories that are a quarter century old. Why aren't you demanding the results of CURRENT INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS?

For christssakes, while you and the NYT are wringing your hands over Bhopal, there are chemical plants all over China that could be spewing untold toxins TODAY.
 
= Why No One is Reading "News"papers.

:night:

one of the worst disasters happened 25 years ago. this disaster is still ongoing.

a perfect time to report about it again. not only the NYT did this, all over the world on a 25 year anniversary (and other anniversaries) newspapers will report about this.

what is your problem, samson?

you want this buried and slam the NYT? how idiotic

My problem is I'd like to read about "NEWS" in a Newspaper. Yep, pretty wild concept, but apparently, based on the NYT and other so-called "Newspapers" failing subscribership, I'm not the only one that would prefer to have 25 year old events published in History Texts.

But there's a bigger issue than my problem: Yours.

You seem to be quite satisfied that declining organizations like the NYT are trying to survive off stories that are a quarter century old. Why aren't you demanding the results of CURRENT INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS?

For christssakes, while you and the NYT are wringing your hands over Bhopal, there are chemical plants all over China that could be spewing untold toxins TODAY.

for the last time, it is not history. if you still think that, take all your pets and your loved ones to an extended picnic on the historic site in bhopal. bon appetit.
 
one of the worst disasters happened 25 years ago. this disaster is still ongoing.

a perfect time to report about it again. not only the NYT did this, all over the world on a 25 year anniversary (and other anniversaries) newspapers will report about this.

what is your problem, samson?

you want this buried and slam the NYT? how idiotic

My problem is I'd like to read about "NEWS" in a Newspaper. Yep, pretty wild concept, but apparently, based on the NYT and other so-called "Newspapers" failing subscribership, I'm not the only one that would prefer to have 25 year old events published in History Texts.

But there's a bigger issue than my problem: Yours.

You seem to be quite satisfied that declining organizations like the NYT are trying to survive off stories that are a quarter century old. Why aren't you demanding the results of CURRENT INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS?

For christssakes, while you and the NYT are wringing your hands over Bhopal, there are chemical plants all over China that could be spewing untold toxins TODAY.

for the last time, it is not history. if you still think that, take all your pets and your loved ones to an extended picnic on the historic site in bhopal. bon appetit.

Events that happened 25 years ago are history.

But I'm certain you'd gladly invest in a "Newspaper," that printed a story regarding the negligance surrounding the sinking of the Titanic rather than any negligance among transportation companies Today.:cuckoo:
 
My problem is I'd like to read about "NEWS" in a Newspaper. Yep, pretty wild concept, but apparently, based on the NYT and other so-called "Newspapers" failing subscribership, I'm not the only one that would prefer to have 25 year old events published in History Texts.

But there's a bigger issue than my problem: Yours.

You seem to be quite satisfied that declining organizations like the NYT are trying to survive off stories that are a quarter century old. Why aren't you demanding the results of CURRENT INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS?

For christssakes, while you and the NYT are wringing your hands over Bhopal, there are chemical plants all over China that could be spewing untold toxins TODAY.

for the last time, it is not history. if you still think that, take all your pets and your loved ones to an extended picnic on the historic site in bhopal. bon appetit.

Events that happened 25 years ago are history.

But I'm certain you'd gladly invest in a "Newspaper," that printed a story regarding the negligance surrounding the sinking of the Titanic rather than any negligance among transportation companies Today.:cuckoo:

you are a broken record, and i guess that fact is history.
 
for the last time, it is not history. if you still think that, take all your pets and your loved ones to an extended picnic on the historic site in bhopal. bon appetit.

Events that happened 25 years ago are history.

But I'm certain you'd gladly invest in a "Newspaper," that printed a story regarding the negligance surrounding the sinking of the Titanic rather than any negligance among transportation companies Today.:cuckoo:

you are a broken record, and i guess that fact is history.

You'd better get it in the NYT for tomorrow's Headlines.:razz:
 
Last edited:
There's no "Morality" question here, only one of incompetance.
Incompetence is typically caused by cutting corners; safety training and certifications are skimped. They cut into profits and the 'savvy' company avoids such costs whenever possible.

Lawyers are experts at 'gaming' regulation; they determine, with the help of actuaries and other specialists, whether compliance or paying expected claims is cheaper. The human cost is ignored for profits, as any human cost is covered by expected litigation losses.

CEO's should be held accountable for failures in their companies; criminal negligence charges might make some of them rethink their business models.
 

New Topics

Forum List

Back
Top