'A Cloud Still Hangs Over Bhopal'

[Si modo]

i was asking for a link that is supporting your insinuation that bayer owns the UCC subdivision which was responsible for the disaster. not that bayer produces carbaryls.

never mind.

Dow never owned the the Union Carbide division that manufactured carbaryl (Sevin) in India. Ever. In 2002, Bayer purchased it.

i understand what you are saying, but i wanted to see a link.

btw, in 2001 dow purchased UCC without the indian branch which was chopped up, renamed, made up, given a new hairdo, bought by the indian government and then resold in parts.

no way would bayer be so stupid to buy this stinky shit directly from UCC.

no one wants this toxic asset.

just shows how muddying the water is effective in dodging responsibilities.

By the reasoning in this thread - some trying to hold Dow responsible - then Bayer's hands should be just as dirty by those with that mindset.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Bayer Cropscience - Sevin

i was asking for a link that is supporting your insinuation that bayer owns the UCC subdivision which was responsible for the disaster. not that bayer produces carbaryls.

never mind.

Dow never owned the the Union Carbide division that manufactured carbaryl (Sevin) in India. Ever. In 2002, Bayer purchased it.

Everybody go back and re-read my posts substituting "Bayer" for "Dow".

I type slow and I'm a drinker - it would take waaaaaay to long to edit them.

-J

 

[L.K.Eder]

Dow never owned the the Union Carbide division that manufactured carbaryl (Sevin) in India. Ever. In 2002, Bayer purchased it.

i understand what you are saying, but i wanted to see a link.

btw, in 2001 dow purchased UCC without the indian branch which was chopped up, renamed, made up, given a new hairdo, bought by the indian government and then resold in parts.

no way would bayer be so stupid to buy this stinky shit directly from UCC.

no one wants this toxic asset.

just shows how muddying the water is effective in dodging responsibilities.

By the reasoning in this thread - some trying to hold Dow responsible - then Bayer's hands should be just as dirty by those with that mindset.

sure, if they did purchase what you said they did. i tried to research it myself and gave up because it is obviously made unobvious. so if you have a source which makes this connection clear, please share it.

what is your mindset? who should pay for the clean up, just for starters?

 

[Samson]

The "Superfund" can't even get a program through our politics to clean up Hanford in Washington State... I can't imagine Bhopal India even making their short list.

Sounds like a State Issue.

 

[AVG-JOE]

A screw up of that nature should be the end of a corporation. Thank the lawyers that idiots can continue to stay in business.

Dow Chemical is right that they, as the vulture corporation that swooped in and bought the assets of another that perished in the marketplace are not culpable for its fuck-ups...

A screw up of that nature should have led to criminal prosecutions of an entire board of directors.

The worst thing about the concept of a 'legal corporate identity' is that no entrepreneur is required to be responsible for their actions in the marketplace if they can afford the right congressman and / or attorney.

Why do you insist on ignoring all the preceeding posts that are evidence that there is remediation and regulation of the chemical industry?

My guess is your intent is to smear corporations with outrageous conspiracy theories, rather than acknowledge anything genuine.

I never said that there was no regulations, quite the contrary I state clearly in one of my posts that things are better on this planet, thanks to government.

I merely use the incident to support a side thesis that The worst thing about the concept of a 'legal corporate identity' is that no entrepreneur is required to be responsible for their actions in the marketplace if they can afford the right congressman and / or attorney.

I really hate the fact that humans aren't criminally responsible for the actions of the corporations that they direct.

 

[Samson]

I really hate the fact that humans aren't criminally responsible for the actions of the corporations that they direct.

Why don't you think they ARE criminally prosecutable?

 

[Si modo]

i understand what you are saying, but i wanted to see a link.

btw, in 2001 dow purchased UCC without the indian branch which was chopped up, renamed, made up, given a new hairdo, bought by the indian government and then resold in parts.

no way would bayer be so stupid to buy this stinky shit directly from UCC.

no one wants this toxic asset.

just shows how muddying the water is effective in dodging responsibilities.

By the reasoning in this thread - some trying to hold Dow responsible - then Bayer's hands should be just as dirty by those with that mindset.

sure, if they did purchase what you said they did. i tried to research it myself and gave up because it is obviously made unobvious. so if you have a source which makes this connection clear, please share it.

what is your mindset? who should pay for the clean up, just for starters?

If? Union Carbide used to make Sevin brand carbaryl. Dow does not and never did. Bayer owns Sevin brand carbaryl. I don't understand your confusion.

As an aside:

(Beyond Pesticides, September 1, 2009) On August 26, 2009, Bayer CropScience announced plans to reduce by 80 percent the storage of methyl isocyanate (MIC), the chemical used in pesticide production that caused the explosion in Bhopal, India and Institute, West Virgina. Two workers were killed in August 2008 when the chemical, an intermediate chemical used in the production of aldicarb, carbaryl, carbofuran, methomyl and other carbamate pesticides, exploded at a Bayer facility in Institute, WV. Thousands died in a Bhopal in 1984.

Advocates point out that even if Bayer follows through with its 80% reduction promise, it would still allow up to 50,000 pounds of MIC to be stored on site. This would be similar to the amount of the chemical present in the 1984 Union Carbide (now owned by Dow Chemical) explosion in Bhopal, India. Last summer, when a pesticide tank exploded in West Virginia, comparisons between the site’s potential risk and the Bhopal disaster, in which an explosion and leak killed thousands, were drawn. Currently, the U.S. plant has the capacity to store more up to 40,000 pounds of MIC above ground and 200,000 pounds below ground. Bayer says it will eliminate all above ground storage.

Bayer Cropscience has previously rejected calls to eliminate or reduce MIC production. Bill Buckner, Bayer CropScience’s president, said the decision isn’t an admission the plant’s MIC stockpile was unsafe, but is an effort to address continued concerns from the public and local government officials.
....

Beyond Pesticides Daily News Blog » Blog Archive » After Deadly Explosion Bayer Reduces Chemical Stockpile to Still Hazardous Levels

August 26, 2009
Bayer to cut Institute plant's MIC stockpile by 80%
By Ken Ward Jr.
Staff writer


INSTITUTE, W.Va. -- Bayer CropScience's Institute plant will eliminate 80 percent of the huge methyl isocyanate stockpile that has fueled public safety concerns in the Kanawha Valley since a leak of the chemical killed thousands of people in Bhopal, India, a quarter century ago.

Bayer officials announced the plan just two days before Friday's one-year anniversary of the Aug. 28, 2008, explosion and fire that killed Institute plant workers Bill Oxley and Barry Withrow.
....

Bayer to cut Institute plant's MIC stockpile b ... - News - The Charleston Gazette - West Virginia News and Sports

 

[AVG-JOE]

Of course we should, and give credit where credit is due. But if we were talking about an individual, would giving to charity and being productive at work negate responsibility for his or her negligence killing a few thousand people? IMO, no. Why should a company be any different?

The short answer is they shouldn't.....

Damn the lawyers and the politicians! ​

Careful what you say about lawyers there, champ.

But I agree wholeheartedly that any system holding corporations to lower standards of responsibility than individuals through th euse of legal loopholes needs a serious overhaul.

Eh, lawyers are like neighbors... I only want to get rid of some of them.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I really hate the fact that humans aren't criminally responsible for the actions of the corporations that they direct.

Why don't you think they ARE criminally prosecutable?

Because there aren't enough directors of financial corporations sleeping poorly tonight.

 

[goldcatt]

The short answer is they shouldn't.....

Damn the lawyers and the politicians! ​

Careful what you say about lawyers there, champ.

But I agree wholeheartedly that any system holding corporations to lower standards of responsibility than individuals through th euse of legal loopholes needs a serious overhaul.

Eh, lawyers are like neighbors... I only want to get rid of some of them.

Good man!

The problem is the law of corporations. A company can shuffle some papers and assets and bevcome a whole new entity with a clean slate, or become a wholly owned part of a new company which can shuffle more papers to obscure ownership, liability or both. An individual cannot just go file some papers and take on a whole new identity, leaving the liabilities of the old one behind. Fact is, because of the structure of corporate laws they are held to a much lower standard of legal responsibility than any of us could hope to be. Forget most of the lawyers, they have an obligation to apply the laws to the advantage of their clients. Damn the lobbyists and the pols they buy.

 

[midcan5]

Interesting discussion, glad to see the thread treated with some serious examination. Derrick Jensen in the link in the first post questions whether Bhopal was an accident or negligence caused by the requirement for more profit (p283). Risk assessment was not sufficient and human error with no real information on steps required in the case of leak were missing.


"Western society has accepted as unquestionable a technological imperative that is quite as arbitrary as the most primitive taboo: not merely the duty to foster invention and constantly to create technological novelties, but equally the duty to surrender to these novelties unconditionally, just because they are offered, without respect to their human consequences." Lewis Mumford

 

[L.K.Eder]

By the reasoning in this thread - some trying to hold Dow responsible - then Bayer's hands should be just as dirty by those with that mindset.

sure, if they did purchase what you said they did. i tried to research it myself and gave up because it is obviously made unobvious. so if you have a source which makes this connection clear, please share it.

what is your mindset? who should pay for the clean up, just for starters?

If? Union Carbide used to make Sevin brand carbaryl. Dow does not and never did. Bayer owns Sevin brand carbaryl. I don't understand your confusion.

As an aside:

(Beyond Pesticides, September 1, 2009) On August 26, 2009, Bayer CropScience announced plans to reduce by 80 percent the storage of methyl isocyanate (MIC), the chemical used in pesticide production that caused the explosion in Bhopal, India and Institute, West Virgina. Two workers were killed in August 2008 when the chemical, an intermediate chemical used in the production of aldicarb, carbaryl, carbofuran, methomyl and other carbamate pesticides, exploded at a Bayer facility in Institute, WV. Thousands died in a Bhopal in 1984.

Advocates point out that even if Bayer follows through with its 80% reduction promise, it would still allow up to 50,000 pounds of MIC to be stored on site. This would be similar to the amount of the chemical present in the 1984 Union Carbide (now owned by Dow Chemical) explosion in Bhopal, India. Last summer, when a pesticide tank exploded in West Virginia, comparisons between the site’s potential risk and the Bhopal disaster, in which an explosion and leak killed thousands, were drawn. Currently, the U.S. plant has the capacity to store more up to 40,000 pounds of MIC above ground and 200,000 pounds below ground. Bayer says it will eliminate all above ground storage.

Bayer Cropscience has previously rejected calls to eliminate or reduce MIC production. Bill Buckner, Bayer CropScience’s president, said the decision isn’t an admission the plant’s MIC stockpile was unsafe, but is an effort to address continued concerns from the public and local government officials.
....

Beyond Pesticides Daily News Blog » Blog Archive » After Deadly Explosion Bayer Reduces Chemical Stockpile to Still Hazardous Levels

August 26, 2009
Bayer to cut Institute plant's MIC stockpile by 80%
By Ken Ward Jr.
Staff writer


INSTITUTE, W.Va. -- Bayer CropScience's Institute plant will eliminate 80 percent of the huge methyl isocyanate stockpile that has fueled public safety concerns in the Kanawha Valley since a leak of the chemical killed thousands of people in Bhopal, India, a quarter century ago.

Bayer officials announced the plan just two days before Friday's one-year anniversary of the Aug. 28, 2008, explosion and fire that killed Institute plant workers Bill Oxley and Barry Withrow.
....

Bayer to cut Institute plant's MIC stockpile b ... - News - The Charleston Gazette - West Virginia News and Sports

the confusion stems from your failing to sufficiently support your claim.

there are a lot of steps to be shown instead of just the fact that a pesticide which was produced by UCC is now produced by bayer.

why the repeated attempt to deflect attention from dow chemical to another chem giant?

 

[Si modo]

sure, if they did purchase what you said they did. i tried to research it myself and gave up because it is obviously made unobvious. so if you have a source which makes this connection clear, please share it.

what is your mindset? who should pay for the clean up, just for starters?

If? Union Carbide used to make Sevin brand carbaryl. Dow does not and never did. Bayer owns Sevin brand carbaryl. I don't understand your confusion.

As an aside:
Beyond Pesticides Daily News Blog » Blog Archive » After Deadly Explosion Bayer Reduces Chemical Stockpile to Still Hazardous Levels

August 26, 2009
Bayer to cut Institute plant's MIC stockpile by 80%
By Ken Ward Jr.
Staff writer


INSTITUTE, W.Va. -- Bayer CropScience's Institute plant will eliminate 80 percent of the huge methyl isocyanate stockpile that has fueled public safety concerns in the Kanawha Valley since a leak of the chemical killed thousands of people in Bhopal, India, a quarter century ago.

Bayer officials announced the plan just two days before Friday's one-year anniversary of the Aug. 28, 2008, explosion and fire that killed Institute plant workers Bill Oxley and Barry Withrow.
....

Bayer to cut Institute plant's MIC stockpile b ... - News - The Charleston Gazette - West Virginia News and Sports

the confusion stems from your failing to sufficiently support your claim.

there are a lot of steps to be shown instead of just the fact that a pesticide which was produced by UCC is now produced by bayer.

why the repeated attempt to deflect attention from dow chemical to another chem giant?

No deflection, more than equal inclusion, for those with that mindset that Dow is responsible. Bayer is now the owner of Sevin - the material that was being produced by Union Carbide in Bhopal. Dow NEVER owned it. And I still don't understand your confusion.

 

[uscitizen]

Corporations should not be treated as an individual. The people running the corp should be the ones responsible for the corporations actions.

The risk they take for the big money. As they themselves say to justify their massive salaries and bonuses.

 

[L.K.Eder]

If? Union Carbide used to make Sevin brand carbaryl. Dow does not and never did. Bayer owns Sevin brand carbaryl. I don't understand your confusion.

As an aside:
Beyond Pesticides Daily News Blog » Blog Archive » After Deadly Explosion Bayer Reduces Chemical Stockpile to Still Hazardous Levels

Bayer to cut Institute plant's MIC stockpile b ... - News - The Charleston Gazette - West Virginia News and Sports

the confusion stems from your failing to sufficiently support your claim.

there are a lot of steps to be shown instead of just the fact that a pesticide which was produced by UCC is now produced by bayer.

why the repeated attempt to deflect attention from dow chemical to another chem giant?

No deflection, more than equal inclusion, for those with that mindset that Dow is responsible. Bayer is now the owner of Sevin - the material that was being produced by Union Carbide in Bhopal. Dow NEVER owned it.

you don't need to repeat that, again. dow however owns almost everything else what was once the independent UCC. you think profits from the bhopal plant did stay in that one branch, and liability has now been turfed to bayer via the indian government, rhone-poulenc, hoechst and aventis? it sure looks like you do. maybe you work at 1776 I St NW

EDIT: in light of this relatively flame-free thread, i apologize for this unnecessary hit.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Careful what you say about lawyers there, champ.

But I agree wholeheartedly that any system holding corporations to lower standards of responsibility than individuals through th euse of legal loopholes needs a serious overhaul.

Eh, lawyers are like neighbors... I only want to get rid of some of them.

Good man!

The problem is the law of corporations. A company can shuffle some papers and assets and bevcome a whole new entity with a clean slate, or become a wholly owned part of a new company which can shuffle more papers to obscure ownership, liability or both. An individual cannot just go file some papers and take on a whole new identity, leaving the liabilities of the old one behind. Fact is, because of the structure of corporate laws they are held to a much lower standard of legal responsibility than any of us could hope to be. Forget most of the lawyers, they have an obligation to apply the laws to the advantage of their clients. Damn the lobbyists and the pols they buy.

Not the least of which are those lobbying on behalf of the corporate legal profession!

Lawyers paying lawyers to lobby lawyers, which WE hire and pay handsomely, to make up rules that help people avoid legal responsibility if they can pay the price and which require lawyers to interpret.

Good (insert your preferred Deity here), we must look stupid from space......

 

[AVG-JOE]

Interesting discussion, glad to see the thread treated with some serious examination. Derrick Jensen in the link in the first post questions whether Bhopal was an accident or negligence caused by the requirement for more profit (p283). Risk assessment was not sufficient and human error with no real information on steps required in the case of leak were missing.


"Western society has accepted as unquestionable a technological imperative that is quite as arbitrary as the most primitive taboo: not merely the duty to foster invention and constantly to create technological novelties, but equally the duty to surrender to these novelties unconditionally, just because they are offered, without respect to their human consequences." Lewis Mumford

Nice thread indeed. I miss the flame-free threads of yore... I cherish the rare minimal-flame threads of today.

 

[Si modo]

the confusion stems from your failing to sufficiently support your claim.

there are a lot of steps to be shown instead of just the fact that a pesticide which was produced by UCC is now produced by bayer.

why the repeated attempt to deflect attention from dow chemical to another chem giant?

No deflection, more than equal inclusion, for those with that mindset that Dow is responsible. Bayer is now the owner of Sevin - the material that was being produced by Union Carbide in Bhopal. Dow NEVER owned it.

you don't need to repeat that, again. dow however owns almost everything else what was once the independent UCC. ....

Yet, Dow never owned the Sevin brand. Ever.

.... you think profits from the bhopal plant did stay in that one branch, and liability has now been turfed to bayer via the indian government, rhone-poulenc, hoechst and aventis? it sure looks like you do. maybe you work at 1776 I St NW.

By those with the mindset that Dow is responsible, they need to include Bayer as well, lest they look hypocritical. Some obviously don't care about their reputations as hypocrites, though.

 

[goldcatt]

Eh, lawyers are like neighbors... I only want to get rid of some of them.

Good man!

The problem is the law of corporations. A company can shuffle some papers and assets and bevcome a whole new entity with a clean slate, or become a wholly owned part of a new company which can shuffle more papers to obscure ownership, liability or both. An individual cannot just go file some papers and take on a whole new identity, leaving the liabilities of the old one behind. Fact is, because of the structure of corporate laws they are held to a much lower standard of legal responsibility than any of us could hope to be. Forget most of the lawyers, they have an obligation to apply the laws to the advantage of their clients. Damn the lobbyists and the pols they buy.

Not the least of which are those lobbying on behalf of the corporate legal profession!

Lawyers paying lawyers to lobby lawyers which WE hire and pay handsomely to make up rules that help people avoid legal responsibility if they can pay the price and which require lawyers to interpret.

Good (insert your preferred Deity here), we must look stupid from space......

The lawyers don't make law though, unless they happen to be elected to public office. That's a common misperception. They have an ethical obligation to use the existing law to the advantage of their clients. Some of them really are scumbags who don't take their oaths seriously, others are just doing their jobs working within a crappy system.

And yes, we probably do look pretty stupid to anybody who doesn't take corporatism for granted.

 

[L.K.Eder]

No deflection, more than equal inclusion, for those with that mindset that Dow is responsible. Bayer is now the owner of Sevin - the material that was being produced by Union Carbide in Bhopal. Dow NEVER owned it.

you don't need to repeat that, again. dow however owns almost everything else what was once the independent UCC. ....

Yet, Dow never owned the Sevin brand. Ever.

.... you think profits from the bhopal plant did stay in that one branch, and liability has now been turfed to bayer via the indian government, rhone-poulenc, hoechst and aventis? it sure looks like you do. maybe you work at 1776 I St NW.

By those with the mindset that Dow is responsible, they need to include Bayer as well, lest they look hypocritical. Some obviously don't care about their reputations as hypocrites, though.

so, what is your mindset about the subject matter? who is responsible?