A Civil Debate on Creationism vs. Origin of Life, Evolution etc...

[IndependntLogic]

This is a carry over from another thread that got extremely hostile.

Now if you can manage to discuss and debate without slinging petty insults, I applaud you and would welcome your input. If you can't that says much more about you than whomever you might attack. I personally am able to appreciate and respect views that are different than my own. Okay Enough of the lecturing.

Two Subjects of Debate:
1. Creationism vs. Origin of Life Theories.
Most debates end up being Creationism v. Evolution. Two different subjects.
2. Evolution v. the THEORY of Evolution Flawed.
I love this debate!

So. I believe in God. Not an old guy with a "smite" button on his keyboard. Not a "guy" at all. Simply a life form so far beyond my understanding, it would be comparable to me trying to understand a woman
My understanding is that the Theory of the Origin of Life basically, it comes down to this:
The odds of life "just appearing" are extraordinary. Like real big. More zeros than I could type in days. So theory goes (and I'm paraphrasing a bit) "Yeah but so what! Life had FOREVER to show up! SOooooo (and here's the zinger) GIVEN ENOUGH TIME, ANYTHING CAN OCCUR!"
This is both the basis and the biggest flaw with their argument. Because when you throw in the possibility of a being beyond our understanding, which is all life and connects all life.... it's "Well no that couldn't happen."

Theory of Evolution:
I believe in evolution but I find the Theory to be flawed. I'll explain my next problem with The THEORY of Evolution from my book "The Las Vegas Times Politically Incorrect Dictionary"

Evolution, Theory of: The belief that at some point, a group of reptiles were sitting around and one of them suddenly jumped up and said “Hey, it won't help me survive or anything but I think I’ll be a bird and fly around!”, at which point another said “Well, if you’re going to do that, I’m going to suddenly become warm-blooded, grow hair and start giving live births!”. As a result of this Reptilian Rebellion, the exact same animal became Eagles, Ostriches, Giraffes, Porcupines and People. This theory went onto say that believing anything else was just plain silly. God gets a very big laugh out of all this.[/quote]

(that was humor folks - I don't really believe things "decide" to evolve or that lizards talk outside of Pixar movies.)

Last point on the Origin of Life vs. Creationism: Where's my danm Ferarri?!?!?

Remember: Throw an insult, prove the weakness of your position. We're looking for real debaters on this particular thread. Although humor which doesn't insult anyone is great!

 

[Dr.Drock]

The odds of life "just appearing" are extraordinary.-Your quote

If man can create life in a lab rather quickly, I'm confident it can happen in nature over billions of years.

Artificial life created by Craig Venter - but could it wipe out humanity? | Mail Online

"Dr Venter created the lifeform by synthesising a DNA code and injecting it into a single bacteria cell. The cell containing the man-made DNA then grew and divided, creating a hitherto unseen lifeform."

 

[IndependntLogic]

The odds of life "just appearing" are extraordinary.-Your quote

If man can create life in a lab rather quickly, I'm confident it can happen in nature over billions of years.

Artificial life created by Craig Venter - but could it wipe out humanity? | Mail Online

"Dr Venter created the lifeform by synthesising a DNA code and injecting it into a single bacteria cell. The cell containing the man-made DNA then grew and divided, creating a hitherto unseen lifeform."

Seems the good Doctor didn't create life at all. He injected a DNA code into something that was already life - a bacteria cell.

 

[Wiseacre]

They started with DNA from an existing lifeform, no fair. That's different from creating life from no-life. Really, it comes down to 3 possibilities:

1. Life started here through some sequence of events and with exisitng substances.

2. Life started somewhere else and migrated here via a comet or meteorite.

3. God did it. First 2 option presume God didn't.

I suspect at some point somebody will create a living cell out of non-living matter. Doesn't mean option 3 didn't happen, it just means life finds a way.


I also think evolution is the truth, too many fossils exist that show human and animal changes taking place over time to seriously doubt it. But again, that doesn't mean evolution wasn't God's plan all along, for those who believe in God. I do not believe that acceptance of evolution must mean that God doesn't exist and didn't create this world and everthing that lives in it.

Believe what you will, but please tolerate those with a different opinion.

 

[IndependntLogic]

They started with DNA from an existing lifeform, no fair. That's different from creating life from no-life. Really, it comes down to 3 possibilities:

1. Life started here through some sequence of events and with exisitng substances.

2. Life started somewhere else and migrated here via a comet or meteorite.

3. God did it. First 2 option presume God didn't.

I suspect at some point somebody will create a living cell out of non-living matter. Doesn't mean option 3 didn't happen, it just means life finds a way.


I also think evolution is the truth, too many fossils exist that show human and animal changes taking place over time to seriously doubt it. But again, that doesn't mean evolution wasn't God's plan all along, for those who believe in God. I do not believe that acceptance of evolution must mean that God doesn't exist and didn't create this world and everthing that lives in it.

Believe what you will, but please tolerate those with a different opinion.

A very reasonable and intelligent post.
The other problem with #2 is where did the life that brought the life here come from?

And if option #1 happened, my questions remains: Where is my danm Ferarri!

 

[IndependntLogic]

Creationism or Intelligent Design (virtually the same things) is an HYPOTHESIS in search of a single speck of observable, independently verifiable, evidence to back it up. Proponents of this hypothesis have no evidence and therefore the hypothesis is not even elevated to the level of "theory". The term "theory" is used to explain or describe something that can be "observed" or deduced from other available observations. We can "theorize" snow fell during the night when we wake up and see snow on the ground, even though we didn't see the snow fall. We can also theorize other facts about snow, that is is frozen water, that it reflects light better than water, etc etc.
We can TEST theories, and theories must stand up to the tests of logic, deductive reasoning, and direct observation.

I await the first speck of evidence in our lives that a "creator" exists. We have prematurely deduced that one exists because we exist. Yet we have no tangible, observable, nor logical evidence from which to base that assumption, other than the fact of our existence.

Evolution does NOT PRETEND to explain the phenomena of creation, it explains what happens AFTER the creation of the Earth. It leaves the story of the creation of the Earth to other branches of science, astronomy, cosmology, geology, physics, mostly, to explain those events in the history of the universe.

By contrast, EVOLUTION explains the change over time in life forms, and observes the different mutations in the DNA/RNA structures over time, as a key part of the logical explanation of that process.

The Theory of the Origin of Life is an HYPOTHESIS in search of a single speck of observable, independently verifiable, evidence to back it up....

 

[Wiseacre]

They started with DNA from an existing lifeform, no fair. That's different from creating life from no-life. Really, it comes down to 3 possibilities:

1. Life started here through some sequence of events and with exisitng substances.

2. Life started somewhere else and migrated here via a comet or meteorite.

3. God did it. First 2 option presume God didn't.

I suspect at some point somebody will create a living cell out of non-living matter. Doesn't mean option 3 didn't happen, it just means life finds a way.


I also think evolution is the truth, too many fossils exist that show human and animal changes taking place over time to seriously doubt it. But again, that doesn't mean evolution wasn't God's plan all along, for those who believe in God. I do not believe that acceptance of evolution must mean that God doesn't exist and didn't create this world and everthing that lives in it.

Believe what you will, but please tolerate those with a different opinion.

A very reasonable and intelligent post.
The other problem with #2 is where did the life that brought the life here come from?

And if option #1 happened, my questions remains: Where is my danm Ferarri!

It may be that life did not originate here, but rather somewhere else in the cosmos where the ingredients were more abundant or suitable or who the hell knows. We know that scientists can reproduce certain amino acids which are the building blocks of life, but recreating the necessary DNA or earlier RNA to facilitate reproduction is another matter. I suspect there was a precursor to RNA that was far simpler, or perhaps there were other conditions we haven't yet replicated. I think life did start here, we just can't prove it yet.

But that does not refute the possibility that God did it the 1st time around.


PS: Maybe you haven't evolved enough to get that Ferrari.

 

[IndependntLogic]

The fact remains that there is not one single shred of verifiable evidence that life just decided to make a guest appearance in the TV show I call "Welcome to Our Universe!". The belief in theories about The Origin of Life, require exactly the same thing as believing in God. A bit of faith.
Additionally, believing that a Being beyond our comprehension, which is and connects all life CAN'T exist, is a negative belief and therefore, both illogical and unscientific.

Oh and the Ferarri thing. I love science and science shows. They had a guy on a show (I think it was Nova) once who was explaining the OoL theory. While making his case as to why there is no God and life just "poofed" into existence one day, he talked about the odds of it happening. It was like 1x50^115 or something bigger than I can understand anyway. Then he made the comment that the odds of this happening are actually worse than the odds of a fully assembled Ferarri just showing up in your living room one day. He was great. One of those eccentric humorous types that actually makes learning interesting. Anyways, he went on to say that this was fine because Life had such a very long time to do its poofing.
So I've been waiting ever since then and danmit! No Ferarri has poofed into my living room.

 

[spectrumc01]

Here is the problem with this debate..."Faith". Faith cannot be proven or disproven it just is, Creationism is based on faith, therefore you cannot apply any factual evidence or proofs that will sway someone of faith. For someone to acknowledge that their faith is wrong is for them to admit the way they have been living their life up to the point of conversion has been wrong. That never happens, which is why the bloodiest wars in history have been over religion.

Evolution is a fact...bacteria and germs develope immunities to our antibacterial drugs through constant exposure to them. This is undisputable. However it doesn't mean we evolved from apes, it just means that lifeforms do evolve.

Creationism is a belief...people have faith that a God created everything. This belief is based on the shared acceptance of a God. The hope is that enough people will develope this acceptance of a God so that creationism can become viable. It won't because there are no facts involved in creationism. The absence of contrary proof does not prove anything.

 

[Wiseacre]

It may be that life did not originate here, but rather somewhere else in the cosmos where the ingredients were more abundant or suitable or who the hell knows. We know that scientists can reproduce certain amino acids which are the building blocks of life, but recreating the necessary DNA or earlier RNA to facilitate reproduction is another matter. I suspect there was a precursor to RNA that was far simpler, or perhaps there were other conditions we haven't yet replicated. I think life did start here, we just can't prove it yet.

But that does not refute the possibility that God did it the 1st time around.


PS: Maybe you haven't evolved enough to get that Ferrari.

But that does not refute the possibility that God did it the 1st time around.

The question I always ask people who "hypothesize" that God did it, I have to ask this question:

WHO OR WHAT was GOD'S CREATOR??? stated another way WHO OR WHAT CREATED GOD?

I imagine they'll come back to you and say God is infinite, has always existed and always will.

It's similar to the question for atheists, if God did not create the universe then who did? How could something start from nothing, what happened before time began?


Either way, no proof will ever exist to prove or disprove anything, unless God decides to make an appearance.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Here is the problem with this debate..."Faith". Faith cannot be proven or disproven it just is, Creationism is based on faith, therefore you cannot apply any factual evidence or proofs that will sway someone of faith. For someone to acknowledge that their faith is wrong is for them to admit the way they have been living their life up to the point of conversion has been wrong. That never happens, which is why the bloodiest wars in history have been over religion.

Evolution is a fact...bacteria and germs develope immunities to our antibacterial drugs through constant exposure to them. This is undisputable. However it doesn't mean we evolved from apes, it just means that lifeforms do evolve.

Creationism is a belief...people have faith that a God created everything. This belief is based on the shared acceptance of a God. The hope is that enough people will develope this acceptance of a God so that creationism can become viable. It won't because there are no facts involved in creationism. The absence of contrary proof does not prove anything.

"Creationism is a belief"
So is the belief that life just showed up. It is a belief. I'm not saying it's a bad belief or that I don't respect it. I do. But it a belief nonetheless.

There is certainly enough evidence of evolution for me to believe that life evolves. But there are holes in the Theory of Evolution.
Natural selection. Survival of the fittest.

The two most efficient creatures on Earth are the alligator and the shark. They have remained unchanged since Fred Flinstone played with his pet dinosaur (joke). So why isn't the Earth populated solely by sharks and alligators? Anything they would have evolved into, would not be as efficient as they already are?
And where are the danm flying lizards! I want a flying lizard danmit! Flight would obviously be beneficial to survival. Feathers, not so much.
What about species that have evolved into characteristics that are obviously COUNTER to survival? No matter how you slice it, a maximum speed of 1/10 mph is counter to survival. Yet those dang sloths.
And don't get me started on the fur-bearing, duck billed egg layer!
Oh yeah! And what about those NEW species! I want one! Could you imagine how much fun it would be to say "Fido sit!" and have Fido say "I don't feel like it!". Which, come to think of it, dogs being able to talk would be a LOT more handy in the survival thing, than parrots being able to talk. So why do parrots talk? How does that help their survival? What. Do they imitate panthers to scare off prey? And if not, why develop the ability to mimic if you can't mimic something useful?
Yes there is evidence of evolution but I find flaws in Darwins' theory.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Creationism is a belief, not science. It should not be taught in a science class.

 

[Steelplate]

May I just throw my two cents in?

I don't care. I do believe that God Created the Universe... but beyond that? I don't give a crap. I don't care whether he created every individual species, or he created life and allowed it to evolve on it's own. I don't care if he created the earth in 7 days or 7 million years.

Once again... it really does not matter... what matters is the message... Love one another... Judge not, lest ye be judged...etc. Both sides of this argument Cannot see the forest from the trees.

That is all... good luck on trying to prove the unprovable.

 

[Youwerecreated]

May I just throw my two cents in?

I don't care. I do believe that God Created the Universe... but beyond that? I don't give a crap. I don't care whether he created every individual species, or he created life and allowed it to evolve on it's own. I don't care if he created the earth in 7 days or 7 million years.

Once again... it really does not matter... what matters is the message... Love one another... Judge not, lest ye be judged...etc. Both sides of this argument Cannot see the forest from the trees.

That is all... good luck on trying to prove the unprovable.

Best post in the thread. The OP had some pretty good ones to.

 

[Youwerecreated]

May I just throw my two cents in?

I don't care. I do believe that God Created the Universe... but beyond that? I don't give a crap. I don't care whether he created every individual species, or he created life and allowed it to evolve on it's own. I don't care if he created the earth in 7 days or 7 million years.

Once again... it really does not matter... what matters is the message... Love one another... Judge not, lest ye be judged...etc. Both sides of this argument Cannot see the forest from the trees.

That is all... good luck on trying to prove the unprovable.

This kind of intellectual laziness and "devil may care" attitude leads to self-serving arrogance, a sense of superiority over other humans, and an inability to think rationally.
If you don't want to think, and would rather believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus, that's your choice, it has nothing to do with honest debate nor intellectual curiosity about the world you live in.

Debates don't change minds of the debaters,it may change the minds of viewers of the debates.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Creationism is a belief, not science. It should not be taught in a science class.

I don't think there is anyone on this thread that would disagree with you on that point.

 

[IndependntLogic]

May I just throw my two cents in?

I don't care. I do believe that God Created the Universe... but beyond that? I don't give a crap. I don't care whether he created every individual species, or he created life and allowed it to evolve on it's own. I don't care if he created the earth in 7 days or 7 million years.

Once again... it really does not matter... what matters is the message... Love one another... Judge not, lest ye be judged...etc. Both sides of this argument Cannot see the forest from the trees.

That is all... good luck on trying to prove the unprovable.

I think this is the wisest possible view - except the judgment of us as to not seeing the forest from the trees. We simply WANT to have a discussion about these concepts - without the usual hostility and insults that seem to permeate this board. If you're not here for discussions, why are you here?

 

[IndependntLogic]

May I just throw my two cents in?

I don't care. I do believe that God Created the Universe... but beyond that? I don't give a crap. I don't care whether he created every individual species, or he created life and allowed it to evolve on it's own. I don't care if he created the earth in 7 days or 7 million years.

Once again... it really does not matter... what matters is the message... Love one another... Judge not, lest ye be judged...etc. Both sides of this argument Cannot see the forest from the trees.

That is all... good luck on trying to prove the unprovable.

This kind of intellectual laziness and "devil may care" attitude leads to self-serving arrogance, a sense of superiority over other humans, and an inability to think rationally.
If you don't want to think, and would rather believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus, that's your choice, it has nothing to do with honest debate nor intellectual curiosity about the world you live in.

LOL! Okay, so right after writing about having a nice discussion without the usual hostilities & insults, I scroll down to the next post and read this. Ah, God doth have a sense of humor... Is it part of the person's personality? The anonymity of the net? Why are people such impolite uh, well nm. Fine.

Okay, so we've changed gears a bit to the "Is there a God?" debate.

Do you believe that life exist on other planets?

 

[Youwerecreated]

May I just throw my two cents in?

I don't care. I do believe that God Created the Universe... but beyond that? I don't give a crap. I don't care whether he created every individual species, or he created life and allowed it to evolve on it's own. I don't care if he created the earth in 7 days or 7 million years.

Once again... it really does not matter... what matters is the message... Love one another... Judge not, lest ye be judged...etc. Both sides of this argument Cannot see the forest from the trees.

That is all... good luck on trying to prove the unprovable.

This kind of intellectual laziness and "devil may care" attitude leads to self-serving arrogance, a sense of superiority over other humans, and an inability to think rationally.
If you don't want to think, and would rather believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus, that's your choice, it has nothing to do with honest debate nor intellectual curiosity about the world you live in.

LOL! Okay, so right after writing about having a nice discussion without the usual hostilities & insults, I scroll down to the next post and read this. Ah, God doth have a sense of humor... Is it part of the person's personality? The anonymity of the net? Why are people such impolite uh, well nm. Fine.

Okay, so we've changed gears a bit to the "Is there a God?" debate.

Do you believe that life exist on other planets?

Yeah he needs to put everyone on ignore or he won't last here.