A bet with anti-gunners

[Ray From Cleveland]

On the right, we believe that no matter what gun laws are created, the bad guys will always find access to firearms.

This delusion is shattered by the simple fact that advanced countries with strict gun laws have not only less gun homicides, they have lower homicide rates, period.

So you don't need to make a wager. You've already lost the bet. You just need to open your eyes.

I will wager, however, that you WON'T open your eyes and will keep them firmly shut.

And it's as I said repeatedly, you leftists think it's the lack of guns responsible instead of the people. Take all the guns we have here and give them to those people in the countries you speak of, and there will be little if any change in both countries.

Take all the guns out of the inner-city and give them to the people in a nice middle-class suburb. Same thing, nothing will change in either area. You still won't be able to walk down the street at night in the ghetto and still be able to walk anytime in the nice middle-class suburb.

Yes gangs are killing each other over who sells drugs 2 Suburbanites.

Yes, and what are gangs, guns or people?

Giving or taking guns from people won't change the people. Evil people will still be evil and good people will still be good people.

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

So when was the last mass murder by a person who purchased their guns by avoiding a background check?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Take all the guns we have here and give them to those people in the countries you speak of, and there will be little if any change in both countries.

Ipse dixit.

Just as I said. You will keep your eyes firmly shut. That means you have missed the target.

Baby........I never miss my target.

 

[bgrouse]

On the right, we believe that no matter what gun laws are created, the bad guys will always find access to firearms.

This delusion is shattered by the simple fact that advanced countries with strict gun laws have not only less gun homicides, they have lower homicide rates, period.

Those "advanced countries" also have far, far fewer blacks and latinos. This trend holds between European countries like Switzerland and the UK. The gun/violent crime rate between those two does NOT.

 

[francoHFW]

Yes gangs are killing each other over who sells drugs 2 Suburbanites.

Yes, and what are gangs, guns or people?

Giving or taking guns from people won't change the people. Evil people will still be evil and good people will still be good people.

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

Laws that do not exist yet? Brilliant

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yes, and what are gangs, guns or people?

Giving or taking guns from people won't change the people. Evil people will still be evil and good people will still be good people.

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

Laws that do not exist yet? Brilliant

You mean there aren't any laws against murder in this country?

 

[SmokeALib]

WTF is wrong with you people? Unbelievable LOL! Another 20 years of this and we are a banana Republic. Aaarrrggghhh hhhh

Nah. A banana republic is a country dependent on a single export. The only export we would have at mass quantities would be liberals. But nobody wants them because they don't work.

You are absolutely out of your mind. LOL.

I have lived in England France and Spain and got very drunk in Germany Munich and cologne and down the Rhine Valley

I think I bumped into you at a winefest in Ktown! I know you!!!

Oops no wine fest. But I did do the vendange in burgundy in 1977.

I was stationed at Hahn 80 and 81.

 

[Coyote]

Yes gangs are killing each other over who sells drugs 2 Suburbanites.

Yes, and what are gangs, guns or people?

Giving or taking guns from people won't change the people. Evil people will still be evil and good people will still be good people.

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yes, and what are gangs, guns or people?

Giving or taking guns from people won't change the people. Evil people will still be evil and good people will still be good people.

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Even you have to admit you just made that up to try and make a point. Crazy people don't care about laws. That's why gun legislation would never work on them. As pointed out, many of them did obtain their weapons legally WITH a background check. Making the background check even more difficult would only make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain a weapon.

 

[Coyote]

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Even you have to admit you just made that up to try and make a point. Crazy people don't care about laws. That's why gun legislation would never work on them. As pointed out, many of them did obtain their weapons legally WITH a background check. Making the background check even more difficult would only make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain a weapon.

That is the point...well there are two actually.

How would you know how many might be deterred? It isn’t like they would answer a poll saying....ya...I was thinking of shooting up a church but ....

And secondly...per your argument why have any laws then?

 

[bgrouse]

Yes, and what are gangs, guns or people?

Giving or taking guns from people won't change the people. Evil people will still be evil and good people will still be good people.

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Are you actually entertaining the idea? Mass murderers have absolutely nothing to lose from a gun enhancement or separate gun charge. They'll get either death or 500 years anyway. Gun laws deter only those people who weren't going to commit mass murder that day.

 

[bgrouse]

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Even you have to admit you just made that up to try and make a point. Crazy people don't care about laws. That's why gun legislation would never work on them. As pointed out, many of them did obtain their weapons legally WITH a background check. Making the background check even more difficult would only make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain a weapon.

That is the point...well there are two actually.

How would you know how many might be deterred?

Deterred by gun laws that might get them 10 years when they're going to commit mass murder netting them 100+ years? Are you really asking that?

 

[Coyote]

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Even you have to admit you just made that up to try and make a point. Crazy people don't care about laws. That's why gun legislation would never work on them. As pointed out, many of them did obtain their weapons legally WITH a background check. Making the background check even more difficult would only make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain a weapon.

That is the point...well there are two actually.

How would you know how many might be deterred?

Deterred by gun laws that might get them 10 years when they're going to commit mass murder netting them 100+ years? Are you really asking that?

So you admit gun laws have an effect.

 

[Coyote]

People who can buy guns all over the place without a background check.

They aren't evil, they are minorities who have been discriminated against by racist anti-poor GOP leaders and don't want to work at McDonald's for minimum wage. This has Been going on forever. Time 2 end the war on drugs and blacks. And fix the background check nonsystem.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Are you actually entertaining the idea? Mass murderers have absolutely nothing to lose from a gun enhancement or separate gun charge. They'll get either death or 500 years anyway. Gun laws deter only those people who weren't going to commit mass murder that day.

No. I am pointing out there is no objective way to prove a negative.

Murder is against the law. How many would be murdered were deterred?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

So you admit gun laws have an effect.

I am pretty sure the point was the exact opposite.

 

[Coyote]

So you admit gun laws have an effect.

I am pretty sure the point was the exact opposite.

Oh. Laws have no effect.

Or is it just gun laws?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

s have no effect.

Or is it just gun laws

For deranged mass murderers intent on dying? What do you think?

 

[bgrouse]

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Even you have to admit you just made that up to try and make a point. Crazy people don't care about laws. That's why gun legislation would never work on them. As pointed out, many of them did obtain their weapons legally WITH a background check. Making the background check even more difficult would only make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain a weapon.

That is the point...well there are two actually.

How would you know how many might be deterred?

Deterred by gun laws that might get them 10 years when they're going to commit mass murder netting them 100+ years? Are you really asking that?

So you admit gun laws have an effect.

Yeah, on deterring law-abiding bystanders from carrying them and saving a few lives.

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Are you actually entertaining the idea? Mass murderers have absolutely nothing to lose from a gun enhancement or separate gun charge. They'll get either death or 500 years anyway. Gun laws deter only those people who weren't going to commit mass murder that day.

No. I am pointing out there is no objective way to prove a negative.

Murder is against the law. How many would be murdered were deterred?

How many of all the people in the USA were deterred from committing murder because it was against the law? Plenty, because the difference between murdering and not murdering would mean the difference between a life sentence/death sentence and no sentence at all.

How many of the people who already made the decision to commit mass murder were deterred from using firearms by gun bans? Likely zero, because the difference between using a gun to commit mass murder and using a bomb to do so would mean the difference between a life/death sentence and a life/death sentence + 10 years in prison.

Sentences that have a practical effect on your expected time behind bars can deter crime. Sentences that don't have a practical effect on your time behind bars don't.

To make it easier: the first death sentence is scary. The second, third, and fourth don't have any effect. A 10 year enhancement on top of the death sentence is even less scary.

 

[bgrouse]

So you admit gun laws have an effect.

I am pretty sure the point was the exact opposite.

Oh. Laws have no effect.

Or is it just gun laws?

Would a jackhammer help you fix your monitor? No? Does that mean tools are useless when it comes to repairing things? Or is it that some tools are useful in some situations, with other tools being no use at all?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You can't buy guns all over the place without a background check, and criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check to buy their guns...or they steal them. Mass shooters pass background checks or they steal their guns....

So...where is the magic to background checks?

You keep making the same tired arguments. Laws don’t stop all mass killers...so why have them?

Well the make it more difficult and reduce the numbers.

What??????

Laws against mass killers reduce the numbers? Show me one person that was going to kill a bunch of people but opted not to because of laws.

You are asking to prove a negative.

Even you have to admit you just made that up to try and make a point. Crazy people don't care about laws. That's why gun legislation would never work on them. As pointed out, many of them did obtain their weapons legally WITH a background check. Making the background check even more difficult would only make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain a weapon.

That is the point...well there are two actually.

How would you know how many might be deterred? It isn’t like they would answer a poll saying....ya...I was thinking of shooting up a church but ....

And secondly...per your argument why have any laws then?

Because not all murders are the same.

For instance, a man finds out his wife is cheating on him, so he surprises her by coming home a few days early from out of town and finds her and her lover in bed. He'd love to kill both of them, but realizes she's not worth it and the satisfaction would only be temporary. It's not worth spending 25 years in prison for. He'll find another woman and she'll keep on being a tramp and eventually end up cheating on him.

A guy loses his job, and because he lacks the talent or skill to get a similar paying job, his life is over. He won't be able to make the mortgage, he won't be able to keep his car or even his house. His entire life collapsed before his eyes. So he seeks to get even with the person responsible. All the gun laws in the country won't stop him because as far as he's concerned, life is over anyway.