9-9-9 Attack Myths

[GHook93]

There are a lot of attacks on the 9-9-9 plan. Many are unfair attacks based on half-truths!

Attack 1 - The Bachmann Attack:
Bachmann states that all Cain is doing is providing another stream for the government to tax on and that once government has a tax stream they never close it. The first part is true! HOWEVER, this weak attack leaves out the fact that the 9-9-9 plan CLOSES/ENDS the payroll tax (which really is an income tax and is a SMALL BUSINESS KILLER!), the capital gains tax (which hurts investments from 401k to mutual funds) and gift and death taxes! The 9-9-9 plan might add a sales tax, but it gets rid of other devastating taxation that Bachmann disingenious leaves out of her attack.

Attack 2 - The Price of Good will Go Up:
The opposite is true! Yes there will be a 9% sales tax, but corporations and small businesses who produce those goods are getting a significant tax decrease along with more business certainity. The 35% corporate tax, the payroll taxes, capital gains taxes and high income flow-through taxes just get pushed onto the consumer in the form of higher PRICES. We might not pay the business taxes directly, but we still pay them!!! With the reduction in taxes and REGULATIONS on these businesses prices will go down. The sales tax will increase the cost, but the overall price at the end, even with the sales tax will be less, since the corps and small businesses are pushing less of the cost onto the consumer. The 9% tax increase will be offset by the less costs getting pushed onto the consumer.

Attack 3 - Raises Taxes on 84% of Americans:
First, true, many Americans don't plan Federal income taxes, but they pay payroll taxes. Payroll taxes on EMPLOYEES are roughly 6.2% (the business pays additional taxes), the POOR/Low Income Wage Earner pays this. Again some lower income earners (single, no children, non-homeowner making between $24K-$50K) pay income taxes, but many usually don't pay any Federal income taxes, so the increase might be 2.8%. So it could be true. However, not all the details on the plan are out! So not everything at this point is known. Cain might have a plan her (and he is a man that always has a plan). Second, the Cain campaign has said it's working on ways to lessen the burden on the poor. I bet there will be a 2.8% earned income tax relief (making it income tax neutral on them). Third, the vast majority of American's INCOME taxes will be reduced, when you take away the 6.2% payroll and federal income taxes. The reason they are still saying taxes still increase on these people is because of the sales taxes! HOWEVER, the tax people aren't taking into account that businesses will be pushing less tax costs onto consumers, therefore the price of goods will go down and offset the sales tax. In the end the MAJORITY of Americans will have lower income taxes and the sales tax will be offset by lower cost of goods.

84% would pay more under Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan - Oct. 18, 2011
First, while the Cain campaign has said it is working on ways to lessen the tax burden on low-income households, the Tax Policy Center said it didn't have enough detail to assume what that change would be. One way to address regressivity is to offer a rebate to low-income households.

The second reason has to do with how Cain would restructure taxes.

Under the current system, most of the lowest income households end up owing no federal income tax. That's because their incomes are so low that they're exempt, or because their tax liability is canceled out by the standard deduction and tax breaks, such as the Earned Income Tax Credit.

The Cain plan doesn't exempt very low incomes from taxation. And while it would eliminate the payroll tax, which is the heaviest tax for low-income families, that tax relief would be offset for many by the elimination of the EITC and other tax breaks they qualify for now.

Attack 4 - The Anderson Cooper Attack:
Here Anderson Cooper, without knowing all the facts of the plan, states as FACT that one study says Cain's plan would produce, $2.2 trillion in revenue, vs the $2.5 trillion on the current plan. Yet the non-partisan Tax Relief Center (who is critical of Cain's plan and is used as the ammo of the left in attacking it) says that in 2013, the Cain 999 Plan will raise $2.55 trillion. With the economic boom to come with Cain's 999 plan, I wouldn't be surprised to see $3 trillion by 2013!!! Means it revenue neutral in 2013 and a revenue increase in 2014!!!

TPC Tax Topics | Herman Cain
The Tax Policy Center estimates that, if fully phased in, the plan would raise about $2.55 trillion of revenues at 2013 levels of income and consumption, virtually the same amount that would be collected if current tax policy were in place that year

Attack 5 - Bruce Barlett Attack:
His second attack is Cain is proposing a VAT tax and capital gains don't hurt business and lowering them doesn't help economic growth. First, Bruce (who might have worked under many Republicans), but he that doesn't make him any less disingenuous! First, he admits he knows little details about the plan. Then he says its a VAT tax. Which is untrue. Then he says removal of capital gains won't help the economy. Yet even Obama acknowledged raising capital gains would hurt the economy. I mean the man's book is , The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, does anyone really think he doesn't have an agenda? He has an agenda alright!


Facts are this, business hire when economy is good, there is certainity and less burden on them. Cain's plan will provide a steroid shot to the business community. This bold plan will create a recovery the world has never seen before.

How Cain's Plan Does This:
(1) Overshore Incentive Gone:Gets rid of the corporate tax loop-holes, that essentially forces business to go over seas! Getting rid of these loop-holes takes away MANY of the unfair advantages large corps have over small businesses. It levels the playing field!
(2) Small Business BOOM:Gets rid of the small business killing payroll tax. 8-9% decrease and lowers the SUCCESSFULL small business owners income tax (since they have flow-through taxation), so they have more more to expand and HIRE WORKERS! Make no mistake small business hire the majority of Americans!
(3) Have the Lowest Corporate Tax in Industrialized World: The 35% corporate tax is what drives many corps overseas. Many will come back, many foreign ones will relocate here. Having low taxation (and reformed regulations under Cain), will offset the slave wages in much of the 3rd world (China still needs to be addressed though).
(4) No Capital Gains Means More Investments:
This means corps get to hold onto more of its money. Some will keep it, but many will use it to expand and hire people. Either way anyone with investments (401K, defined pension plan, mutual funds, variable life insurance, money market, IRA, Education IRA) which is the majority of Americans will see a boom in their investments value. This is key for the baby boomers trying to retire.
(5) Lower Costs of Goods: All Businesses do is push costs onto consumers. Take away the payroll tax, capital gains, lower income tax (for flow-through emtities) and reduction from 35% to 9% for C-Corps and business will push less costs onto consumers. No to mention the less burdensome regulation businesses will see under Cain. Cost of goods will go down, even with the 9% sales tax.
(6) Businesses will FINALLY have CERTAINITY: Businessman Herman Cain knows that businesses need certainity to expand. They can't take risks now without know if there will be changs. All Obama does is have temporary measures with the promises of added costs later. Businesses can't expand or take risks under those condition. Businessman Herman Cain knows this. His plan gives the business community certainity in order for them to take calculated risk of expansion.

 

[DaGoose]

A lot of those were the same arguements that were used to promote Trickle Down Economics.








And it failed too.

 

[GHook93]

A lot of those were the same arguements that were used to promote Trickle Down Economics.

And it failed too.

Towards the end of Reagan's Presidency in 1987 we produced 28% of the world's good. That is the highest percent ANY country has ever produced (including the USA) ever!
http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/andrew.bernard/bp-exporters.pdf

Productivity in the manufuctured increased by 3.8%, highest since WW II!!! Reagan economics decreased unemployment from Carter's 10% to getting it close to 4%!!!

He did fail in reducing the deficit and on illegal immigration, but he was a successes in growing th economy, growing the private sector, growing the manufacturing sector and decreasing unemployment!

Reaganomics, by William A. Niskanen: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty
The reduction in economic regulation that started in the Carter administration continued, but at a slower rate. Reagan eased or eliminated price controls on oil and natural gas, cable TV, long-distance telephone service, interstate bus service, and ocean shipping. Banks were allowed to invest in a somewhat broader set of assets, and the scope of the antitrust laws was reduced. The major exception to this pattern was a substantial increase in import barriers. The Reagan administration did not propose changes in the legislation affecting health, safety, and the environment, but it reduced the number of new regulations under the existing laws. Deregulation was clearly the lowest priority among the major elements of the Reagan economic program.

Monetary policy was somewhat erratic but, on net, quite successful. Reagan endorsed the reduction in money growth initiated by the Federal Reserve in late 1979, a policy that led to both the severe 1982 recession and a large reduction in inflation and interest rates. The administration reversed its position on one dimension of monetary policy: during the first term, the administration did not intervene in the markets for foreign exchange but, beginning in 1985, occasionally intervened with the objective to reduce and then stabilize the foreign-exchange value of the dollar.

Most of the effects of these policies were favorable, even if somewhat disappointing compared to what the administration predicted. Economic growth increased from a 2.8 percent annual rate in the Carter administration, but this is misleading because the growth of the working-age population was much slower in the Reagan years. Real GDP per working-age adult, which had increased at only a 0.8 annual rate during the Carter administration, increased at a 1.8 percent rate during the Reagan administration. The increase in productivity growth was even higher: output per hour in the business sector, which had been roughly constant in the Carter years, increased at a 1.4 percent rate in the Reagan years. Productivity in the manufacturing sector increased at a 3.8 percent annual rate, a record for peacetime.

Most other economic conditions also improved. The unemployment rate declined from 7.0 percent in 1980 to 5.4 percent in 1988. The inflation rate declined from 10.4 percent in 1980 to 4.2 percent in 1988. The combination of conditions proved that there is no long-run trade-off between the unemployment rate and the inflation rate (see Phillips Curve). Other conditions were more mixed. The rate of new business formation increased sharply, but the rate of bank failures was the highest since the thirties. Real interest rates increased sharply, but inflation-adjusted prices of common stocks more than doubled.

The U.S. economy experienced substantial turbulence during the Reagan years despite favorable general economic conditions. This was the "creative destruction" that is characteristic of a healthy economy. At the end of the Reagan administration, the U.S. economy had experienced the longest peacetime expansion ever. The "stagflation" and "malaise" that plagued the U.S. economy from 1973 through 1980 were transformed by the Reagan economic program into a sustained period of higher growth and lower inflation.

In retrospect the major achievements of Reaganomics were the sharp reductions in marginal tax rates and in inflation. Moreover, these changes were achieved at a much lower cost than was previously expected. Despite the large decline in marginal tax rates, for example, the federal revenue share of GDP declined only slightly.

 

[pgm]

Attack 2 - The Price of Good will Go Up:
The opposite is true! Yes there will be a 9% sales tax, but corporations and small businesses who produce those goods are getting a significant tax decrease along with more business certainity.

While it is true that some taxes (payroll tax, for one) will go down, it can hardly be said that most businesses will see a tax decrease. Without being to deduct the cost of labor or the cost of purchases of goods made overseas (gas?), many small businesses will see a tax increase. It will certainly help the larger, more profitable businesses, though.

 

[GHook93]

Attack 2 - The Price of Good will Go Up:
The opposite is true! Yes there will be a 9% sales tax, but corporations and small businesses who produce those goods are getting a significant tax decrease along with more business certainity.

While it is true that some taxes (payroll tax, for one) will go down, it can hardly be said that most businesses will see a tax decrease. Without being to deduct the cost of labor or the cost of purchases of goods made overseas (gas?), many small businesses will see a tax increase. It will certainly help the larger, more profitable businesses, though.

Corporate taxes are based on profits. Meaning purchases, overhead, wages, etc. are deducted from the gross and the net is what they are taxed on. See you are hearing Bruce Bartlett's lie that Cain wants a VAT. Anyway you put it this is a decrease of businesses.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There are a lot of attacks on the 9-9-9 plan. Many are unfair attacks based on half-truths!

Attack 1 - The Bachmann Attack:
Bachmann states that all Cain is doing is providing another stream for the government to tax on and that once government has a tax stream they never close it. The first part is true! HOWEVER, this weak attack leaves out the fact that the 9-9-9 plan CLOSES/ENDS the payroll tax (which really is an income tax and is a SMALL BUSINESS KILLER!), the capital gains tax (which hurts investments from 401k to mutual funds) and gift and death taxes! The 9-9-9 plan might add a sales tax, but it gets rid of other devastating taxation that Bachmann disingenious leaves out of her attack.

Attack 2 - The Price of Good will Go Up:
The opposite is true! Yes there will be a 9% sales tax, but corporations and small businesses who produce those goods are getting a significant tax decrease along with more business certainity. The 35% corporate tax, the payroll taxes, capital gains taxes and high income flow-through taxes just get pushed onto the consumer in the form of higher PRICES. We might not pay the business taxes directly, but we still pay them!!! With the reduction in taxes and REGULATIONS on these businesses prices will go down. The sales tax will increase the cost, but the overall price at the end, even with the sales tax will be less, since the corps and small businesses are pushing less of the cost onto the consumer. The 9% tax increase will be offset by the less costs getting pushed onto the consumer.

Attack 3 - Raises Taxes on 84% of Americans:
First, true, many Americans don't plan Federal income taxes, but they pay payroll taxes. Payroll taxes on EMPLOYEES are roughly 6.2% (the business pays additional taxes), the POOR/Low Income Wage Earner pays this. Again some lower income earners (single, no children, non-homeowner making between $24K-$50K) pay income taxes, but many usually don't pay any Federal income taxes, so the increase might be 2.8%. So it could be true. However, not all the details on the plan are out! So not everything at this point is known. Cain might have a plan her (and he is a man that always has a plan). Second, the Cain campaign has said it's working on ways to lessen the burden on the poor. I bet there will be a 2.8% earned income tax relief (making it income tax neutral on them). Third, the vast majority of American's INCOME taxes will be reduced, when you take away the 6.2% payroll and federal income taxes. The reason they are still saying taxes still increase on these people is because of the sales taxes! HOWEVER, the tax people aren't taking into account that businesses will be pushing less tax costs onto consumers, therefore the price of goods will go down and offset the sales tax. In the end the MAJORITY of Americans will have lower income taxes and the sales tax will be offset by lower cost of goods.

84% would pay more under Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan - Oct. 18, 2011
First, while the Cain campaign has said it is working on ways to lessen the tax burden on low-income households, the Tax Policy Center said it didn't have enough detail to assume what that change would be. One way to address regressivity is to offer a rebate to low-income households.

The second reason has to do with how Cain would restructure taxes.

Under the current system, most of the lowest income households end up owing no federal income tax. That's because their incomes are so low that they're exempt, or because their tax liability is canceled out by the standard deduction and tax breaks, such as the Earned Income Tax Credit.

The Cain plan doesn't exempt very low incomes from taxation. And while it would eliminate the payroll tax, which is the heaviest tax for low-income families, that tax relief would be offset for many by the elimination of the EITC and other tax breaks they qualify for now.

Attack 4 - The Anderson Cooper Attack:
Here Anderson Cooper, without knowing all the facts of the plan, states as FACT that one study says Cain's plan would produce, $2.2 trillion in revenue, vs the $2.5 trillion on the current plan. Yet the non-partisan Tax Relief Center (who is critical of Cain's plan and is used as the ammo of the left in attacking it) says that in 2013, the Cain 999 Plan will raise $2.55 trillion. With the economic boom to come with Cain's 999 plan, I wouldn't be surprised to see $3 trillion by 2013!!! Means it revenue neutral in 2013 and a revenue increase in 2014!!!

TPC Tax Topics | Herman Cain
The Tax Policy Center estimates that, if fully phased in, the plan would raise about $2.55 trillion of revenues at 2013 levels of income and consumption, virtually the same amount that would be collected if current tax policy were in place that year

Attack 5 - Bruce Barlett Attack:
His second attack is Cain is proposing a VAT tax and capital gains don't hurt business and lowering them doesn't help economic growth. First, Bruce (who might have worked under many Republicans), but he that doesn't make him any less disingenuous! First, he admits he knows little details about the plan. Then he says its a VAT tax. Which is untrue. Then he says removal of capital gains won't help the economy. Yet even Obama acknowledged raising capital gains would hurt the economy. I mean the man's book is , The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, does anyone really think he doesn't have an agenda? He has an agenda alright!


Facts are this, business hire when economy is good, there is certainity and less burden on them. Cain's plan will provide a steroid shot to the business community. This bold plan will create a recovery the world has never seen before.

How Cain's Plan Does This:
(1) Overshore Incentive Gone:Gets rid of the corporate tax loop-holes, that essentially forces business to go over seas! Getting rid of these loop-holes takes away MANY of the unfair advantages large corps have over small businesses. It levels the playing field!
(2) Small Business BOOM:Gets rid of the small business killing payroll tax. 8-9% decrease and lowers the SUCCESSFULL small business owners income tax (since they have flow-through taxation), so they have more more to expand and HIRE WORKERS! Make no mistake small business hire the majority of Americans!
(3) Have the Lowest Corporate Tax in Industrialized World: The 35% corporate tax is what drives many corps overseas. Many will come back, many foreign ones will relocate here. Having low taxation (and reformed regulations under Cain), will offset the slave wages in much of the 3rd world (China still needs to be addressed though).
(4) No Capital Gains Means More Investments:
This means corps get to hold onto more of its money. Some will keep it, but many will use it to expand and hire people. Either way anyone with investments (401K, defined pension plan, mutual funds, variable life insurance, money market, IRA, Education IRA) which is the majority of Americans will see a boom in their investments value. This is key for the baby boomers trying to retire.
(5) Lower Costs of Goods: All Businesses do is push costs onto consumers. Take away the payroll tax, capital gains, lower income tax (for flow-through emtities) and reduction from 35% to 9% for C-Corps and business will push less costs onto consumers. No to mention the less burdensome regulation businesses will see under Cain. Cost of goods will go down, even with the 9% sales tax.
(6) Businesses will FINALLY have CERTAINITY: Businessman Herman Cain knows that businesses need certainity to expand. They can't take risks now without know if there will be changs. All Obama does is have temporary measures with the promises of added costs later. Businesses can't expand or take risks under those condition. Businessman Herman Cain knows this. His plan gives the business community certainity in order for them to take calculated risk of expansion.

What a great post!

The 9% corporate tax is a fantastic idea!

1. Federal corporation taxes are 15%- 35%, depending on income...

2. State taxes on corporations run toward 10%. Wyoming is zero....but Iowa is 12%/

3. Only the ignorant don't realize that corporations don't pay that tax...the consumer does.

Drop the corporate tax and prices come down, (it's called free market competition) and jobs and businesses come running back to the Unitied States.


Thank you for this thread!!!

 

[GHook93]

What a great post!

The 9% corporate tax is a fantastic idea!

1. Federal corporation taxes are 15%- 35%, depending on income...

2. State taxes on corporations run toward 10%. Wyoming is zero....but Iowa is 12%/

3. Only the ignorant don't realize that corporations don't pay that tax...the consumer does.

Drop the corporate tax and prices come down, (it's called free market competition) and jobs and businesses come running back to the Unitied States.


Thank you for this thread!!!

Fed Corporate taxes are 15-35% depending on deductions, government incentives, shell companies or off-shoring operations. Or in the case of GE, being good friends with the President. Some smaller C-Corps by higher rates and dollars than some multinational Corporation like GE. Cain says keep it simple. No special deductions. Take your profits (Gross - expenses) and tax them all equally at 9%! No off-shore incentive. No shell corps etc.!

People want to think that the corps don't push the cost of taxation and burdensome regulation onto the consumer. My company got nailed with the Dodd Frank Regulator compliance expense, but who ultimately paid the bills? Our banks, credit union and finance customers. Who then passed it onto the consumer. Take those costs away and prices will go down. The 9% sales tax will add to costs, but the overall effect will be lower costs despite the sales tax!