9-11 Changed Everything -

[rayboyusmc]

I love the words she uses: "Fine legal points." The Geneva Convention is quaint and anything short of organ failure or death is not torture.

Destroy any credibility we had for a moral stance and for what? Torture is used to get the information you want, not necessarily what is true. Not only did they throw out the baby with the bathwater, but then they waterboarded the little bastard.

How many dictators and other lying politicians have used this same argument to justify whatever they wanted to do?

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Thursday defended tough interrogation techniques for terrorism suspects approved by the Bush administration in the wake of 9/11, saying they were necessary to protect America from new attacks.

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In her most extensive public comments about how the administration dealt with detainee interrogations in the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001, and the anthrax attacks that followed, Rice insisted the methods of questioning complied with both U.S. law and treaty obligations.

But she acknowledged that those rules had since changed and that the United States was a "different place" then, adding that the administration's top priority at the time had been preventing new attacks and not necessarily observing fine legal points.

"The fact is that after Sept. 11, whatever was legal in the face of not just the attacks of Sept. 11, but the anthrax attacks that happened, we were in an environment in which saving America from the next attack was paramount," Rice said.

"But even in that environment, President Bush made clear that we were going to live up to our obligations at home and to our treaty obligations abroad," she told an audience at the headquarters of Google Inc.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rice_waterboarding

 

[trobinett]

rayboyusmc posts:

Destroy any credibility we had for a moral stance and for what?

Credibility? Who's, ours? Surely you jest?

Moral stance, the United States record in war, is hands, and shoulders better than our contemporaries.

Just another attempt, though lame, on your part to bring shame to those that are charged to protect us.

 

[rayboyusmc]

ust another attempt, though lame, on your part to bring shame to those that are charged to protect us

Bullshit. Just a lame attempt on your part to cover up what Bush and company has done to this country.

I am not talking about our military who do their duty, so please don't give me the shit about not supporting our troops.

 

[Dogger]

The efficacy of torture as a means of extracting reliable information has been long established. American colonists used various forms of torture to secure confessions during the witchcraft trials; if we hadn't dunked all of those witches, they would have gotten away with it.

 

[Yurt]

yes, lets not make our prisoners, either of war or those that do not fall under the geneva convention (less respectful treatment there) feel in any way uncomfortable. we should sing kumbuya around a campfire roasting marshmallows and then give them gift certificates to disney world. lets ignore the fact that waterboarding did in fact produce credible evidence that resulted in arrests and stopped terrorist attacks.

 

[Swamp Fox]

The only thing we should be roasting on the campfire is the nuts of those prisoners we have for terrorism related activities. If certain liberal wishywashy presidents had shown a spine at the correct time, we would not have this current brand of terrorism. Al Qaeda's own statements show they have no respect for us because of our major history of cutting and running and treating terrorism as if it is a crime instead of an act of war.

 

[Dogger]

If certain liberal wishywashy presidents had shown a spine at the correct time, we would not have this current brand of terrorism.

Are you talking about Reagan, who cut and run from Lebanon after the Marine barracks were bombed, or Bush 2, who learned the identity of the Cole bombers during the transition and did nothing about it? I guess you could be talking about both.

 

[Yurt]

The only thing we should be roasting on the campfire is the nuts of those prisoners we have for terrorism related activities. If certain liberal wishywashy presidents had shown a spine at the correct time, we would not have this current brand of terrorism. Al Qaeda's own statements show they have no respect for us because of our major history of cutting and running and treating terrorism as if it is a crime instead of an act of war.

you can't blame clinton, his dick took over his brain in the late 80's ....which caused him to eventually send an impotent missile to osama in the late 90's

 

[TheGoodShepherd]

rayboyusmc posts:

Moral stance, the United States record in war, is hands, and shoulders better than our contemporaries.

Terribly inaccurate statement.

In fact, U.S. foreign policy through direct and indirect military operations in Iraq, Vietnam and throughout Latin America in the post world war 2 era has been horrific in scale and deadly in its efficiency. It's racked up far more bodies than France, the UK, Israel Germany, Canada etc.

In Vietnam alone, it is said over a million Vietnamese perished. It is Pentagon policy to not keep track of Iraqi civilian or military deaths in Iraq by American weaponry. This is on top of the thousands of Iraqi military deaths in Gulf War 1. The Pentagon refused to keep track in 1991. It is obvious why.

Jihadists only wish they could unleash the scope of destruction wrought on regions of the world by American power and policy.

Not my opinion, just the facts.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Terribly inaccurate statement.

In fact, U.S. foreign policy through direct and indirect military operations in Iraq, Vietnam and throughout Latin America in the post world war 2 era has been horrific in scale and deadly in its efficiency. It's racked up far more bodies than France, the UK, Israel Germany, Canada etc.

In Vietnam alone, it is said over a million Vietnamese perished. It is Pentagon policy to not keep track of Iraqi civilian or military deaths in Iraq by American weaponry. This is on top of the thousands of Iraqi military deaths in Gulf War 1. The Pentagon refused to keep track in 1991. It is obvious why.

Jihadists only wish they could unleash the scope of destruction wrought on regions of the world by American power and policy.

Not my opinion, just the facts.

Actually we killed over 2,000,000 N Vietnamese, which was about 10,000,000 to FEW. We have probably killed close to 1,000,000 Iraqi's in two Persian Gulf wars, again, apparently several million too few. Now we did kill over 10,000,000 Japanese, 1,000,000+ AFTER the end of the war, which seemed to get the job done there.

And yes, I could get rid of all Islamic terrorism inside of about 3 weeks.... Never be a problem again. Be about 200,000,000 fewer raghead muslims in the world, but it would do the trick. And I'd do it without a single moral reservation....

 

[midcan5]

"Terrorism require alienated individuals, a complicit community, and a legitimizing ideology motivated by a desire for revenge, renown, and reaction from the enemy." Louise Richardson

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Terrorism-Democracy/dp/041595438X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211630447&sr=1-2[/ame]

 

[rayboyusmc]

about 200,000,000 fewer raghead muslims in the world, but it would do the trick. And I'd do it without a single moral reservation.

Of course if you have no morals, you wouldn't have a reservation. That's why we put them on the reservation.

Stupid part of your remark is that you would just create more terrorist and religious enemies.

Just think, however, there is probably a Muslim raghead on the internet who would just as readily destroy all the baseball cap wearing western christians without a moral reservation either.

Once again, it's the small minority buttheads who cause the majority of the problems. Old Vilfredo Paretto was truly right.

 

[trobinett]

Terribly inaccurate statement.

In fact, U.S. foreign policy through direct and indirect military operations in Iraq, Vietnam and throughout Latin America in the post world war 2 era has been horrific in scale and deadly in its efficiency. It's racked up far more bodies than France, the UK, Israel Germany, Canada etc.

In Vietnam alone, it is said over a million Vietnamese perished. It is Pentagon policy to not keep track of Iraqi civilian or military deaths in Iraq by American weaponry. This is on top of the thousands of Iraqi military deaths in Gulf War 1. The Pentagon refused to keep track in 1991. It is obvious why.

Jihadists only wish they could unleash the scope of destruction wrought on regions of the world by American power and policy.

Not my opinion, just the facts.

NOT your opinion?

BULL SHIT!

Everything I've every read on this, and most every other board is total , unadulterated opinion.

YOU can call it what you want.

Jihadists only wish they could unleash the scope of destruction wrought on regions of the world by American power and policy.

No sir, YOU only wish YOU could unleash total destruction on the US, then, in some twisted way, YOU could feel vindicated.

FUCK YOU....

 

[Toro]

Of course if you have no morals, you wouldn't have a reservation. That's why we put them on the reservation.

Stupid part of your remark is that you would just create more terrorist and religious enemies.

Just think, however, there is probably a Muslim raghead on the internet who would just as readily destroy all the baseball cap wearing western christians without a moral reservation either.

Once again, it's the small minority buttheads who cause the majority of the problems. Old Vilfredo Paretto was truly right.

The funny thing was that I watched a video several months ago of Moroccan youths saying they were going over to fight the Americans in Iraq, and one guy was wearing an Ohio State Buckeyes t-shirt, another had a MLB cap on, etc. They certainly weren't "ragheads."

 

[TheGoodShepherd]

NOT your opinion?

BULL SHIT!

Everything I've every read on this, and most every other board is total , unadulterated opinion.

YOU can call it what you want.



No sir, YOU only wish YOU could unleash total destruction on the US, then, in some twisted way, YOU could feel vindicated.

FUCK YOU....

No, quite wrong.

It is not an opinion it is fact.

You don't like the conclusions?

Then take it up with the leading American and Western intellectuals in the field who have written prestigious studies assessing this very issue.

They retain - by far - more credibility and authority on the subject of American policy than anyone on this board.