7 Dec. 1941

[Annie]

Ditto! The USS Indianapolis soldiers always come to Indiana and have a memorial for those lost at sea, their numbers are dwindling rapidly.

*I would like to add that visiting or talking to these brave WW2 vets would be a wonderful thing to do. Like Annie said, they won't be around much longer.

I've known many 'idiotic' WWII vets in real life. Funny thing though, at least for the past 20 years or so they are increasingly ready to tell their stories in ways not before. What they did right or wrong since the war is of concern to their families, friends and communities; what I find fascinating is their honesty regarding the higher purpose, while never ignoring the stupidities of war and chain of command. I've never heard one of them talk that didn't bring me to tears over the sacrifices, (usually of others), and tears of laughter over the inanities that occurred.

 

[random3434]

EZ, SAILORS not soldiers.

They are all soliders to me, are they not? I KNOW they are sailors, I've heard, read and seen the tragic story a million times.


I never knew there was a difference, is there?

 

[DiveCon]

They are all soliders to me, are they not? I KNOW they are sailors, I've heard, read and seen the tragic story a million times.


I never knew there was a difference, is there?

YES

just ask a few

 

[Xenophon]

There is, sailors and soldiers are proud groups, but there is a real distinction between services.

Soldiers are those who serve in the US Army (NOT Marines).

Marines have their own class, their name is their profession.

Sailors serve proudly in the United states Navy.

Airmen are those who serve in the Air Force.

Calling a sailor a soldier is akin to spitting on his shoe, and vice versa.

 

[random3434]

There is, sailors and soldiers are proud groups, but there is a real distinction between services.

Soldiers are those who serve in the US Army (NOT Marines).

Marines have their own class, their name is their profession.

Sailors serve proudly in the United states Navy.

Airmen are those who serve in the Air Force.

Calling a sailor a soldier is akin to spitting on his shoe, and vice versa.

Ah, see, that's why I love this place, even an old broad like me learns something new everyday. I just thought anyone who fought in a war was a solider, like "Oh, those brave soliders!"

But I can see how the seperate divisions would want their own names.

Sorry, no disrespect intended to anyone!

 

[Gunny]

Personally, I plan to do more research on why we let it happen in memory of those who died needlessly.

It's an interesting search of history, and conspiracy theories abound. One of those events where some people can't just accept what happened for what it was.

The US expected an attack, but in the Phillipines, not Hawaii. They expected sabotage in Hawaii in Hawaii because of the large number of Japanese that lived there, but no one in their right mind expected Japan to attack the US Pacific Fleet. It would have been like someone telling you on 9-10 terrorists were going to fly 747s into the Twin Towers.

We got our asses smacked because of our own arrogance. On BOTH occasions.

The part to the story that stinks is Admiral Kimmel and General Short, the Navy and Army commanders, respectively, in Hawaii, were made the scapegoats when the fact is, our peacetime, pre-WWII military was underfunded, underequipped and it's weapons and aircraft especially outdated. A recurring vicious cycle and lesson we don't seem able to learn no matter how many times it happens in this country.

 

[Xenophon]

Ah, see, that's why I love this place, even an old broad like me learns something new everyday. I just thought anyone who fought in a war was a solider, like "Oh, those brave soliders!"

But I can see how the seperate divisions would want their own names.

Sorry, no disrespect intended to anyone!

Glad to help.

Servive rivalries also fuel the distinctions depending on the branch of service.

Getting back to the Indianapolis, many of the old WWII gang are almost gone now, for years the doolittle raiders met in texas each year, that stopped when jimmy doolittle passed away a decade ago.

This group, the WWII generation is almost gone and the world is sadder for their passing.

 

[DiveCon]

Glad to help.

Servive rivalries also fuel the distinctions depending on the branch of service.

Getting back to the Indianapolis, many of the old WWII gang are almost gone now, for years the doolittle raiders met in texas each year, that stopped when jimmy doolittle passed away a decade ago.

This group, the WWII generation is almost gone and the world is sadder for their passing.

totally agree

 

[DiveCon]

It's an interesting search of history, and conspiracy theories abound. One of those events where some people can't just accept what happened for what it was.

The US expected an attack, but in the Phillipines, not Hawaii. They expected sabotage in Hawaii in Hawaii because of the large number of Japanese that lived there, but no one in their right mind expected Japan to attack the US Pacific Fleet. It would have been like someone telling you on 9-10 terrorists were going to fly 747s into the Twin Towers.

We got our asses smacked because of our own arrogance. On BOTH occasions.

The part to the story that stinks is Admiral Kimmel and General Short, the Navy and Army commanders, respectively, in Hawaii, were made the scapegoats when the fact is, our peacetime, pre-WWII military was underfunded, underequipped and it's weapons and aircraft especially outdated. A recurring vicious cycle and lesson we don't seem able to learn no matter how many times it happens in this country.

the tin foil companies depend on these people

 

[Old Rocks]

It's an interesting search of history, and conspiracy theories abound. One of those events where some people can't just accept what happened for what it was.

The US expected an attack, but in the Phillipines, not Hawaii. They expected sabotage in Hawaii in Hawaii because of the large number of Japanese that lived there, but no one in their right mind expected Japan to attack the US Pacific Fleet. It would have been like someone telling you on 9-10 terrorists were going to fly 747s into the Twin Towers.

We got our asses smacked because of our own arrogance. On BOTH occasions.

The part to the story that stinks is Admiral Kimmel and General Short, the Navy and Army commanders, respectively, in Hawaii, were made the scapegoats when the fact is, our peacetime, pre-WWII military was underfunded, underequipped and it's weapons and aircraft especially outdated. A recurring vicious cycle and lesson we don't seem able to learn no matter how many times it happens in this country.

That is pretty much my take on that peice of history. I do find the xenophobia concerning the average shade of skin in Hawai on the part of those in the Army Air Force made the destruction of the planes there far easier by the clustering of them.

My father was in the Army Air Force, a mechanic on flying trucks, the Liberator. One of my uncle's worked on C-47s that were flying the Hump out of Northern India. Another landed in North Africa, Sicily, and was injured bad enough to be sent home in Italy proper. Another landed as a Marine in Okinawa, and fought for most of that campaign. He sat and cried on the news of Japan's surrender. For, by that time, he had given up any hope of ever returning home alive. He is the only Vet in the family from that war still alive. Another uncle was in the Navy, and in one of the destroyers that took damage in the Coral Sea battle. Most that were in active combat simply would not talk about it to us of the younger generation. The stories that we did hear was only when they were talking to each other. I really think that they thought that without any of that kind of experiance, we simply could not understand what they were telling us. I think that in many ways, they were right.

But now they are becoming fewer so rapidly every day. And, for those of us that knew them, they will leave such a large empty space. Men and women that served and survived times that truly tried men's souls.

 

[YWN666]

what do you have planned for this sunday? church, football...family...just doing nothing....yard work or shoveling snow..take a minute for many this will be the annivesary of the most hellish day anyone living thru it could remember.

I knew a fellow who survived Pearl Harbor and he started the tradition of dropping roses over the Statue of Liberty from his plane every Dec. 7th. Unfortunately, he was burned in a fire in his plane and he died from his injuries but there are others who took up the task and are again doing it this year.

 

[strollingbones]

My Dad was in WW-II in the Pacific. He said something similar. FDR needed a war to get the US out of the depression.

Nothing special this weekend, but I will not forget to salute my father's flag.

are you flying the flag that came off your father's coffin? i just couldnt imagine that....the toll the weather would take on it....just curious

 

[editec]

Beyond the fact that we knew the Japaneses were about to attack Pearl Harbor and we let it happen so we could enter the war, I'd like to know what drives such insanity.

That isn't what I've found, BAC.

That the Japanese were planning on attacking somewhere, is in the historical record.

The assumption was that the attack would be the Phillipines or some closer (to Japan) Island.

But the ENTIRE PACIFIC THEATER was put on alert that an attack on US forces was forthcoming. When and where was NOT known.

And then those warnings were promptly ignored and largely dismissed as insignificant by Kimmel’s staff.

There was no conspiracy, I think.

A confederation of dunces, perhaps, but no conspiracy.

 

[midcan5]

My father enlisted in the Navy after that day but his many siblings will be having a Christmas party.

The History Place - Timeline of Pacific War

World War 2 Timeline 1939-1945 - Worldwar-2.net

 

[del]

December morning
summer sailors shivered
a nip in the air

 

[editec]

Of course FDR needed the war to get us out, his new deal bullshit policies only put this country more in the hole.

You have been feeding at the trough of libertarian nonsensical economics again, I see.

FDR's Kensian approach to economics was solving the problem of illliquidity from 33 to 37.

Unemployment had dropped from 25% to 17%.

Then he foolishly decided to balance the budget (thus exacerbating the illiquidity crises) and unemployment started to go back up. DUMB!

What FDR should have done is invest far greater amounts of money than he did originally and not stop spending money till the unemployment was back down to 5% or so.

Of course, when the USA started spending BIG money (they didn't have) on armaments for WWII, then economy revived.

But there is no special economic magic in spending money on bombs and tanks as opposed to dams and roads.

He was still using Kensian economics to revive the economy, either way.

It's just he was spending it in amounts far greater for WAR than he'd done with the rebuilding projects that he'd been funding.

Had the same amounts of money been spend in social projects (like the TVA and NRA) the effect would have been the same on the DEFLATION that was killing our economy as the war finally gave us.

Regardless, it is a day that will live in infamy, and a day that should be honored and remembered

It will be.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Anyone that claims the US knew Pearl harbor would be attacked is a fool. They should have been more vigalant, but there was absolutely no reason to suspect that Japan would be able to slip her entire Aircraft carrier fleet into range and do what they did.

In 1941 Carriers were still not considered decisive platforms. The belief had begun to change of course but it was still believed the Battleship ruled the waves. In fact all our plans involved rallying the battleships to the Philippines in one form or another. And the Japanese went AFTER our battleships.

Kimmel DID NOT ignore the warnings, he simply did not realize 6 carriers were bearing down on him. He and Short believed the threat was sabatoge and so stacked up the aircraft and ships in a manner that facilitated the actual attack.

Hell even Mac Arthur fell prey to it the next day in the Philippines. Most of his air force was caught on the ground as well, even AFTER he knew we were at war.

The only REAL warning was the mini subs that tried to enter the harbor the day before, and no one associated that with carriers. Further the single Radar that was in use was expermental and only used at night. Most of the staff did not trust it. The off going crew saw approaching aircraft but the report just made those receiving it think it was some B-17's due that morning. By the way they arrived in the middle of the attack.

If the Japanese had understood just how effective their carriers were they would have launched at least two more attacks. But the Admiral in charge was old school and ran away.

Some of you need to learn some REAL history outside the conspiracy rooms.

Halsey seems to have been the only one to go the extra mile per orders. His carrier was on a war footing at sea with orders to attack any Japanese it found. The second carrier was loaded with extra fighters destined for Wake Island. Its command decided to turn back after the attack rather then finish the mission.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

That isn't what I've found, BAC.

That the Japanese were planning on attacking somewhere, is in the historical record.

The assumption was that the attack would be the Phillipines or some closer (to Japan) Island.

But the ENTIRE PACIFIC THEATER was put on alert that an attack on US forces was forthcoming. When and where was NOT known.

And then those warnings were promptly ignored and largely dismissed as insignificant by Kimmel’s staff.

There was no conspiracy, I think.

A confederation of dunces, perhaps, but no conspiracy.

We had already cracked the Japanese code and knew exactly where they were going to attack.

We sank four Japanese minisubs in and around Pearl Harvor Bay just an hour or so before the attack began. Sank four and one ran aground .. this one ..

Here's one of the minisubs we sunk just 45 minutes before the attack ...

The range on those minisubs was about 60 miles .. so unless we believed Japan lie 60 miles off the coast of Pearl Harbor, we KNEW there were large ships close that brought them there.

We knew my brother .. and we allowed it to happen.

No one should be surprised that we would allow innocent people to die for the business of war. We have an entire history of it.

 

[dilloduck]

We had already cracked the Japanese code and knew exactly where they were going to attack.

We sank four Japanese minisubs in and around Pearl Harvor Bay just an hour or so before the attack began.

The range on those minisubs was about 60 miles .. so unless we believed Japan lie 60 miles off the coast of Pearl Harbor, we knew there were large ships close that brought them there.

We knew my brother .. and we allowed it to happen.

No one should be surprised that we would allow innocent people to die for the business of war. We have an entire history of it.

We also knew there wasn't a damn thing we could do to stop it.

 

[Gunny]

That is pretty much my take on that peice of history. I do find the xenophobia concerning the average shade of skin in Hawai on the part of those in the Army Air Force made the destruction of the planes there far easier by the clustering of them.

My father was in the Army Air Force, a mechanic on flying trucks, the Liberator. One of my uncle's worked on C-47s that were flying the Hump out of Northern India. Another landed in North Africa, Sicily, and was injured bad enough to be sent home in Italy proper. Another landed as a Marine in Okinawa, and fought for most of that campaign. He sat and cried on the news of Japan's surrender. For, by that time, he had given up any hope of ever returning home alive. He is the only Vet in the family from that war still alive. Another uncle was in the Navy, and in one of the destroyers that took damage in the Coral Sea battle. Most that were in active combat simply would not talk about it to us of the younger generation. The stories that we did hear was only when they were talking to each other. I really think that they thought that without any of that kind of experiance, we simply could not understand what they were telling us. I think that in many ways, they were right.

But now they are becoming fewer so rapidly every day. And, for those of us that knew them, they will leave such a large empty space. Men and women that served and survived times that truly tried men's souls.

I have a great uncle still alive who flew P-47s in the Pacific from Guadalcanal to Okinawa. His brother, my grandfather, was a civil service plane inspector at Kelly Field in San Antonio. My other grandfather was in the landings in North Africa, Italy, and Normandy. He was battlefield commissioned a Capt but reverted back to SgtMaj when the war was over and the downsizing began.

Interesting that you bring up the talking thing. My great-uncle never said a word until after I returned from the First Gulf War. The whole relationship was different and the wall he kept up was gone between he and I.

There's an old saying: to those that have never been, there aren't enough words to explain. To those that have, no words are necessary.