67th annaversary Battle of the Bulge

[whitehall]

I guess it's a good thing that the US media at the time spun the story as a victory for the Allies. The people back home couldn't take much more bad news. It was a victory in a way because the Germans ran out of gas but it was also an example of the worst intelligence failure in history. The Allies thought Germany was defeated and everyone was thinking about being home for Christmas (1944). What passed for military intelligence was asleep and the generals were busy planning Christmas parties. About 20,000 Americans were killed between 12/16/44 and 1/37/45.

 

[geauxtohell]

"NUTS"

Out of catastrophe was borne one of the greatest victories of World War II. It was the last stand of the Nazis on their Eastern front.

The victory came through the audacity of the American leadership and (as always) the American soldier.

 

[whitehall]

Here's the deal. After three years of offensive action and incredible sacrifice the Allies thought it was over. IKE took a holiday and everyone relaxed even while German armor could be heard clanking in the distance. Next thing you know the Allies are on the defensive and the media's lead story was about a pocket of Americans and an Americangeneral saying "Nuts" to a German request to surrender. McAuliffe's heroisnm became the story while 10,000 Americans were quietly shipped home in body bags. It was an Allied disgrace tempered by pockets of incredible heroism.

 

[whitehall]

Which general should have been relieved of duty? A general that slapped a hysterical private or a general who lost 20,000 men killed and 25,000 captured in a month through negligence while he was attending a party? The media writes the history books and the media was in the propaganda business during WW2. Seventy years later we tend to think the Battle of the Bulge was about an American general who said "nuts" to German troops who had him surrounded. That's a nice story but it's not what the Battle of the Bulge was about.

 

[geauxtohell]

Here's the deal. After three years of offensive action and incredible sacrifice the Allies thought it was over. IKE took a holiday and everyone relaxed even while German armor could be heard clanking in the distance. Next thing you know the Allies are on the defensive and the media's lead story was about a pocket of Americans and an Americangeneral saying "Nuts" to a German request to surrender. McAuliffe's heroisnm became the story while 10,000 Americans were quietly shipped home in body bags. It was an Allied disgrace tempered by pockets of incredible heroism.

Here's the deal: shit happens in combat. On the one hand you want to gripe about the Bulge. Overlord, by all odds, should have been a disaster. It wasn't.

If you expect 100% efficiency out of anyone, including the brass, you are smoking crack.

The end result is all that matters.

 

[geauxtohell]

Which general should have been relieved of duty? A general that slapped a hysterical private or a general who lost 20,000 men killed and 25,000 captured in a month through negligence while he was attending a party? The media writes the history books and the media was in the propaganda business during WW2. Seventy years later we tend to think the Battle of the Bulge was about an American general who said "nuts" to German troops who had him surrounded. That's a nice story but it's not what the Battle of the Bulge was about.

I am sure if you had been running the show, it would have turned out much differently.

 

[whitehall]

Here's the deal. After three years of offensive action and incredible sacrifice the Allies thought it was over. IKE took a holiday and everyone relaxed even while German armor could be heard clanking in the distance. Next thing you know the Allies are on the defensive and the media's lead story was about a pocket of Americans and an Americangeneral saying "Nuts" to a German request to surrender. McAuliffe's heroisnm became the story while 10,000 Americans were quietly shipped home in body bags. It was an Allied disgrace tempered by pockets of incredible heroism.

Here's the deal: shit happens in combat. On the one hand you want to gripe about the Bulge. Overlord, by all odds, should have been a disaster. It wasn't.

If you expect 100% efficiency out of anyone, including the brass, you are smoking crack.

The end result is all that matters.

Plese don't play that game "if you were running the show". It's a sign of ignorance. Shit does happen in combat and lives were sold cheap during WW2. The media creates outrage and they covered the asses of many a commander and politician and threw others to the wolves. The truth is out there in the greatest Country in the world though. You just have to dig for it.

 

[geauxtohell]

Here's the deal. After three years of offensive action and incredible sacrifice the Allies thought it was over. IKE took a holiday and everyone relaxed even while German armor could be heard clanking in the distance. Next thing you know the Allies are on the defensive and the media's lead story was about a pocket of Americans and an Americangeneral saying "Nuts" to a German request to surrender. McAuliffe's heroisnm became the story while 10,000 Americans were quietly shipped home in body bags. It was an Allied disgrace tempered by pockets of incredible heroism.

Here's the deal: shit happens in combat. On the one hand you want to gripe about the Bulge. Overlord, by all odds, should have been a disaster. It wasn't.

If you expect 100% efficiency out of anyone, including the brass, you are smoking crack.

The end result is all that matters.

Plese don't play that game "if you were running the show". It's a sign of ignorance. Shit does happen in combat and lives were sold cheap during WW2. The media creates outrage and they covered the asses of many a commander and politician and threw others to the wolves. The truth is out there in the greatest Country in the world though. You just have to dig for it.

Most facets of history aren't as romantic as they are portrayed in popular media. The Union stuck Chamberlain on the flank at Gettysburg with a depleted force and no ammunition. They didn't think the South would attack there. Huge mistake. That's exactly where they attacked.

Chamberlain's audacity and leadership saved the situation, and possibly the Union.

So, history is generally kind to the screw ups and focuses on the people that salvaged the situation.

Like McAuliffe and the "Battling Bastards of Bastogne".

But maybe you can file a grievance with the United States Historical Grievances Department. I am sure they'll indict Ike.

 

[whitehall]

Here's the deal: shit happens in combat. On the one hand you want to gripe about the Bulge. Overlord, by all odds, should have been a disaster. It wasn't.

If you expect 100% efficiency out of anyone, including the brass, you are smoking crack.

The end result is all that matters.

Plese don't play that game "if you were running the show". It's a sign of ignorance. Shit does happen in combat and lives were sold cheap during WW2. The media creates outrage and they covered the asses of many a commander and politician and threw others to the wolves. The truth is out there in the greatest Country in the world though. You just have to dig for it.

Most facets of history aren't as romantic as they are portrayed in popular media. The Union stuck Chamberlain on the flank at Gettysburg with a depleted force and no ammunition. They didn't think the South would attack there. Huge mistake. That's exactly where they attacked.

Chamberlain's audacity and leadership saved the situation, and possibly the Union.

So, history is generally kind to the screw ups and focuses on the people that salvaged the situation.

Like McAuliffe and the "Battling Bastards of Bastogne".

But maybe you can file a grievance with the United States Historical Grievances Department. I am sure they'll indict Ike.

I agree, Chamberlain saved Gettysburg by the skin of his teeth and saved the Union. McAuliffe's bravery meant nothing to the overall battle or the final conclusion of the war but the US needed a hero. Chamberlain saved the Union and McAuliffe became a legend because the media needed to deflect from the gross incompetence of the Battle of the Bulge. Life was cheap in 1944 on both fronts. The media was employed skilfully by the FDR administration to tell Americans back home a heroic and positive story rather than the dismal truth. The propaganda demands were different in Korea. The media called Korea the "forgotton war" because they didn't have the political mandate that they had during FDR but they still didn't want to tarnish the reputations of icons like MacArthur and Truman.

 

[editec]

Mistakes are made.

People die.

That is war

 

[Sunni Man]

The true Hero's where the members of the Waffen SS who fought and died in this last ditch effort to stop the Allied advance.

 

[Iggy]

The true Hero's where the members of the Waffen SS who fought and died in this last ditch effort to stop the Allied advance.

"Heroes" and "were" you mean?

Yes, they followed Hitler to their deaths. Germany had decades upon decades of reparations for their leaders insanity. No, not heroism. It was purely an ordered suicide by that time and ordered by an insane man.

 

[Swagger]

Pedantry aside, I'm inclined to agree with Sunni Man. Although overall they were guilty of serious war crimes, the members of the Waffen SS who fought at the Battle of the Bulge were indeed heroes. They made the ultimate sacrifice in the face of overwhelming odds. They laid down their lives defending what they truly believed was the right thing to do. You can't dismiss their undeniable heroism by declaring their leadership insane, either. Many heroes have perished while following the orders of superiors who were either incompetent or mad. Just look at all the lives that were lost on the Western Front; on both sides. Like it or not, the SS and the Nazi war machine were an extremely dangerous and capable adversary, regardless of their involvement in the Holocaust.

 

[whitehall]

Mistakes are made.

People die.

That is war

Absolutely. The media writes the history books and we need to be honest about the mistakes while we focus on the heroism. The media has been in the business of protecting political icons for too long.

 

[whitehall]

The true Hero's where the members of the Waffen SS who fought and died in this last ditch effort to stop the Allied advance.

I guess I should have known that a legitimate discussion would bring out the nut case threads.

 

[Trajan]

Plese don't play that game "if you were running the show". It's a sign of ignorance. Shit does happen in combat and lives were sold cheap during WW2. The media creates outrage and they covered the asses of many a commander and politician and threw others to the wolves. The truth is out there in the greatest Country in the world though. You just have to dig for it.

Most facets of history aren't as romantic as they are portrayed in popular media. The Union stuck Chamberlain on the flank at Gettysburg with a depleted force and no ammunition. They didn't think the South would attack there. Huge mistake. That's exactly where they attacked.

Chamberlain's audacity and leadership saved the situation, and possibly the Union.

So, history is generally kind to the screw ups and focuses on the people that salvaged the situation.

Like McAuliffe and the "Battling Bastards of Bastogne".

But maybe you can file a grievance with the United States Historical Grievances Department. I am sure they'll indict Ike.

I agree, Chamberlain saved Gettysburg by the skin of his teeth and saved the Union. McAuliffe's bravery meant nothing to the overall battle or the final conclusion of the war but the US needed a hero. Chamberlain saved the Union and McAuliffe became a legend because the media needed to deflect from the gross incompetence of the Battle of the Bulge. Life was cheap in 1944 on both fronts. The media was employed skilfully by the FDR administration to tell Americans back home a heroic and positive story rather than the dismal truth. The propaganda demands were different in Korea. The media called Korea the "forgotton war" because they didn't have the political mandate that they had during FDR but they still didn't want to tarnish the reputations of icons like MacArthur and Truman.

it wasn't fdr. it was SHAEF, their poor coordination of intel asset information, who had inklings of what was to come and because the Germans against all historical reason, launched a winter offensive.

if you want to lay something at fdr's doorstep, try the invasion of the Philippines. but not this.

 

[whitehall]

Most facets of history aren't as romantic as they are portrayed in popular media. The Union stuck Chamberlain on the flank at Gettysburg with a depleted force and no ammunition. They didn't think the South would attack there. Huge mistake. That's exactly where they attacked.

Chamberlain's audacity and leadership saved the situation, and possibly the Union.

So, history is generally kind to the screw ups and focuses on the people that salvaged the situation.

Like McAuliffe and the "Battling Bastards of Bastogne".

But maybe you can file a grievance with the United States Historical Grievances Department. I am sure they'll indict Ike.

I agree, Chamberlain saved Gettysburg by the skin of his teeth and saved the Union. McAuliffe's bravery meant nothing to the overall battle or the final conclusion of the war but the US needed a hero. Chamberlain saved the Union and McAuliffe became a legend because the media needed to deflect from the gross incompetence of the Battle of the Bulge. Life was cheap in 1944 on both fronts. The media was employed skilfully by the FDR administration to tell Americans back home a heroic and positive story rather than the dismal truth. The propaganda demands were different in Korea. The media called Korea the "forgotton war" because they didn't have the political mandate that they had during FDR but they still didn't want to tarnish the reputations of icons like MacArthur and Truman.

it wasn't fdr. it was SHEAF, their poor coordination of intel asset information, who had inklings of what was to come and because the Germans against all historical reason, launched a winter offensive.

if you want to lay something at fdr's doorstep, try the invasion of the Philippines. but not this.

Harry Truman is famous for the saying "the buck stops here" but he didn't really mean it. FDR invited a Japanese attack to get into the "real war" in Europe but he was a dying man by late 1944. Ike was in charge but he was above criticism. COS George Marshall is out of the picture so it's a pretty good idea and good politics to blame an organization rather than risk offending an icon.

 

[namvet]

New Battle of the Bulge photos released by Life magazine...

link​

 

[Trajan]

New Battle of the Bulge photos released by Life magazine...

link​

the caption at the link says;

An American Sherman M4 tank moves past another gun carriage that slid off icy road in the Ardennes Forest during push to halt advancing German troops.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...jor-offensive-World-War-II.html#ixzz1hIo6hIMl

they are wrong, those are TD's...M-36's.
looks like they are about to have another slide off the roadway...


hard going, Abrams was the man.

 

[NoNukes]

Here's the deal. After three years of offensive action and incredible sacrifice the Allies thought it was over. IKE took a holiday and everyone relaxed even while German armor could be heard clanking in the distance. Next thing you know the Allies are on the defensive and the media's lead story was about a pocket of Americans and an Americangeneral saying "Nuts" to a German request to surrender. McAuliffe's heroisnm became the story while 10,000 Americans were quietly shipped home in body bags. It was an Allied disgrace tempered by pockets of incredible heroism.

My father fought in the Battle of the Bulge, we always heard about it when we were growing up.