6 Month Fetus Declared a Human in MA

[Procrustes Stretched]

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

I apologize, but not being close to you, I do not feel I have to partake of your denial and ignorance.

I understand your opinions as you laid them out before, but then they run smack up into the murder accusation.

 

[caela]

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

I apologize, but not being close to you, I do not feel I have to partake of your denial and ignorance.

I understand your opinions as you laid them out before, but then they run smack up into the murder accusation.

Nobody asked you to partake of anything. I didn't ask you to agree with me, merely stated my own opinions. I do take offense however to being called ignorant and find the insult to be even more heinous when saddled behind a seeming apology. I didn't insult your opinions or your person and would appreciate the simply courtesy of you not insulting mine.

As you said, you aren't close to me, so you have no basis to determine that any sort of internal conflict exists. Perhaps it would for you if you stood in my place, but I am quite content with my positions.

 

[Cecilie1200]

1) No, of course a fetus isn't a "fully developed" human being, it is a still developing human being. The real question is, does that make it any "less" human that your or I? My own personal belief is that life begins at conception so to me there is no difference between abortion and someone hurting the mother and thus killing the child. They are both murder.

2) No I don't. I may consider them alive and human but I don't walk in anyone's shoes but my own and don't feel I have the right to try and take choices away from someone else. Ultimately such a choice is between a woman, her conscience, and God...I shouldn't be a part of the equation, it's not my life.

3) I would actually argue for a Guardian for fetuses whose mothers are using illegal substances and carrying them to term. To me this is just another form of abuse. I'd like to argue them for smokers and alcoholics too but those substances are legal so I would back off of them because, again, it comes down to the mother making legal choices.

thank you for your honesty and respect.

The disconnect here is striking. You support allowing a mother to murder (your term) her in-the-womb, human, child because it is legal to do so? Your support is based on legalities?

I never said I supported it. I just said I don't have the right to take that choice away from her. It's not my body, my life, my conscience, or my choice.

My own child was unexpected and I am a single parent, the option was there but it wasn't one I could make and I'll be forever grateful to the dictates of my conscience because I have the most adorable 2 year old daughter in the world. However, I have a stable job that pays well and is, somewhat, recession proof since I have fairly high seniority, a union contract, and work in the medical field. I also have a lot of help from my family (hell one of my brother's lives with us and provides daycare for me saving us a ton in daycare costs).

I was in a position to follow the dictates of my conscience. Not everyone is and I don't feel I have the right to stop a woman (or a young teenager) who doesn't have my security, and in fact could be MUCH worse off than I am, that she has no choice but to try and raise a child because that is what my conscience says is right and moral.

So may I ask whether you extend this to OTHER laws concerning moral decisions? What other harm do you feel people have the right to choose to cause others without interference from you, because you can't impose your conscience on others? Or is it just in the killing of children that you feel compelled to sit silent?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I never said I supported it. I just said I don't have the right to take that choice away from her. It's not my body, my life, my conscience, or my choice.

My own child was unexpected and I am a single parent, the option was there but it wasn't one I could make and I'll be forever grateful to the dictates of my conscience because I have the most adorable 2 year old daughter in the world. However, I have a stable job that pays well and is, somewhat, recession proof since I have fairly high seniority, a union contract, and work in the medical field. I also have a lot of help from my family (hell one of my brother's lives with us and provides daycare for me saving us a ton in daycare costs).

I was in a position to follow the dictates of my conscience. Not everyone is and I don't feel I have the right to stop a woman (or a young teenager) who doesn't have my security, and in fact could be MUCH worse off than I am, that she has no choice but to try and raise a child because that is what my conscience says is right and moral.

you used the term 'murder' and I ask, do you feel a moral obligation to try and stop a murder done in the name of what is legal?

I just think if you continue to use the term 'murder' and you want to support a woman's choice, you will always have an inner conflict.

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

I always love people who decide something is moral because it's legal. Talk about getting the cart before the horse.

And one of my personal favorite arguments: It's better to allow heinous behavior in the hope that it will prevent even MORE heinous behavior. Appeasement is always such an effective plan.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

No, at the end of the day abortion is the termination of a human life. What a cop-out hiding behind the 'legal, medical procedure' crap.

Actually, if you had read my first post I already said I considered abortion to be murder. It is also, like it or not, a legal medical procedure, and until the law declares it otherwise, it is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's.

Pretty sure this is WHY Zoom called it a "cop out".

I wish we lived in a society where such choices weren't needed but who am I to tell a 14 year old rape victim, or an adult crack-head (extreme examples I know, but still valid) that they have no choice but to be forced to live by my moral code? I'd love to live in a world where only those that were sane, and could care for their offspring, got pregnant but that's not the world we live in and I don't feel I have the right to legislate my morality and my personal choices onto someone else.

Yes, we can't legislate morality. Whatever would the world come to if society started making laws based on what people think is right and wrong? And God knows, none of our laws NOW have anything to do with moral behavior, right?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Actually, if you had read my first post I already said I considered abortion to be murder. It is also, like it or not, a legal medical procedure, and until the law declares it otherwise, it is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's.

I wish we lived in a society where such choices weren't needed but who am I to tell a 14 year old rape victim, or an adult crack-head (extreme examples I know, but still valid) that they have no choice but to be forced to live by my moral code? I'd love to live in a world where only those that were sane, and could care for their offspring, got pregnant but that's not the world we live in and I don't feel I have the right to legislate my morality and my personal choices onto someone else.

"I think its murder but it's a legal, medical procedure so ... " You're a fence straddler.

You'd think protecting an innocent human life would be a morality shared by everyone. Some world we live in, eh?

On this issue, you're right I do straddle the fence. I never said I didn't. It would be nice to live in a world where those kind of choices aren't necessary, where 10 year olds didn't get raped by their Uncles, where men and women didn't destroy their bodies with substances like crack and heroin, where people actually took responsibility for themselves and their actions. That's not the world we live in though. In that world abortion wouldn't be necessary but in this one it sometimes, tragically, is and I don't think myself a high enough moral authority to tell someone that they can't make that choice when I don't live their lives.

Be nice if we didn't live in a world where cowardly people tried to use a statistically miniscule number of hard cases to justify indefensible behavior.

 

[Douger]

I'm pretty sure that people have already been convicted of murder in the deaths of pre-born children before.

This thread is making me hungry.
I think I'll go scramble a couple of pre-born chickens.

 

[caela]

Wow, I wake up and go from being called a hammerhead and ignorant to being called a coward. Nice people.

1) A true coward, knowing her opinions would be unpopular, wouldn't have bothered posting her thoughts at all.

2) I never said morality didn't get legislated (and that the majority of those laws are idiotic), I said that I personally didn't feel that I was a high enough moral authority to do so.

3) Yes I hold my position because of the minority of cases that do need this option open to them. I am well aware that the majority are not the cases I stated, in fact I even said that the cases I stated were extreme examples, but it's those very people who need the protection of this option being there for them.

 

[hipeter924]

Perhaps we would never have to solve this issue if people started wearing protection or having sex when they need to, rather than having it with thousands of random people they hardly ever know. I have never had sex so far, have never needed it, virgin could come up now, but so could the most effective form of HIV and abortion prevention: abstinence.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wow, I wake up and go from being called a hammerhead and ignorant to being called a coward. Nice people.

1) A true coward, knowing her opinions would be unpopular, wouldn't have bothered posting her thoughts at all.

I didn't call you a coward. I made a remark about cowardly people. If you want to own it, that's YOUR problem, not mine, and certainly doesn't make me interested in your defensiveness.

2) I never said morality didn't get legislated (and that the majority of those laws are idiotic), I said that I personally didn't feel that I was a high enough moral authority to do so.

Yes, and abortion, unlike every other issue that ever gets legislated by the people or their representatives (as opposed to by unelected lawyers in robes), is all about YOU and what YOU feel is moral.

3) Yes I hold my position because of the minority of cases that do need this option open to them. I am well aware that the majority are not the cases I stated, in fact I even said that the cases I stated were extreme examples, but it's those very people who need the protection of this option being there for them.

So perhaps you could explain to me why we need to have some of the most liberal - pun intended - abortion laws in the world just to cover less than five percent of all cases.

 

[caela]

I didn't call you a coward. I made a remark about cowardly people. If you want to own it, that's YOUR problem, not mine, and certainly doesn't make me interested in your defensiveness.

You're right, you didn't call me a coward, you implied it.

Yes, and abortion, unlike every other issue that ever gets legislated by the people or their representatives (as opposed to by unelected lawyers in robes), is all about YOU and what YOU feel is moral.

I never said the issue was about me or my morals. My opinion on the matter is based on what I feel is moral however, just as, I'm sure, your own opinion on the matter is based on your own sense of morality.

So perhaps you could explain to me why we need to have some of the most liberal - pun intended - abortion laws in the world just to cover less than five percent of all cases.

I don't think we need to have such liberal abortion laws. I wouldn't argue narrowing them, limiting who, and how often, women are allowed to get them, requiring some form of counseling beforehand so all of her option are really laid out before her etc. I just wouldn't make them entirely illegal. Like I said before, I think the legal option needs to be there for the minority of women in positions that need them (most often victims of some sort of abuse or drug addicts) not the majority that use it as another birth control method.