6 Month Fetus Declared a Human in MA

[Cecilie1200]

What changes between the moment before the baby begins to crown and the moment its last toe leaves the mother's body?

It leaves the womb. When the umbilical cord is cut the fetus is now a human being with legal rights.

so it's not human before the cord is cut?

I take it you never read the biology book where humanity is defined as "having legal rights" either?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I see. So not only is "location" apparently part of the definition of "human being" that mysteriously doesn't appear in any science book, but so is "legal rights granted by other people".

Your logic is not like our Earth logic.

I thought we were discussing the legal rights granted to human beings.

"It will be interesting to see if this sets a precedent."

Location? Yes. A fetus does not have all the rights of babies born and living outside the womb.

do you support the state appointing a Guardian ad Litem to protect the rights you seem to say a fetus has?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

It leaves the womb. When the umbilical cord is cut the fetus is now a human being with legal rights.

so it's not human before the cord is cut?

I take it you never read the biology book where humanity is defined as "having legal rights" either?

you are still stuck on stupid?

why not answer the question?

Guardian ad Litem? if not, why not?

 

[JBeukema]

It leaves the womb. When the umbilical cord is cut the fetus is now a human being with legal rights.

so it's not human before the cord is cut?

I didn't say a baby isn't human. There are partially developed human beings. A baby still attached to the cord or inside the womb is totally dependent on the mother and is not yet accorded the full legal rights of a human being.

In Virgina.

Show me the same laws in the other 49 states and the federal statutes.


Of course, a 20-year-old in many states is not awarded full legal rights, either

 

[Cleopatra II]

In my opinion it should be somewhat sooner than that. BUT that is my opinion. I am thankful to live in a society that gives the right for a woman to CHOOSE what to do with her body.
For myself I could NEVER wait that long to have an abortion, UNLESS my life was in danger, even then it would be an agonizing decision.

 

[Care4all]

A 6 month old fetus IS VIABLE outside of the womb....after 23 weeks the fetus has a good shot at living....mainly because we have been able to develop small enough needles, to administer medicines that can keep them alive and to further develop in an incubator....

Most late term abortions, which are very very very few, are for medical reasons and not for the "mother's choice" from what I have read on the topic.

 

[JBeukema]

Viability is a moving target. A 25-year-old might not be viable without serious medical care.


It's a poor standard to which to appeal.

 

[Care4all]

Viability is a moving target. A 25-year-old might not be viable without serious medical care.


It's a poor standard to which to appeal.

I am not trying to appeal to anything JB....roe v wade mentions viability.

As far as I am concerned, the fetus is human from day one.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Is a fetus is a fully developed human being? Is a fetus entitled to the same legal rights and constitutional privileges as a one day old infant?

Do you advocate legal rights for a fetus in the womb?

Do you argue for a Guardian ad Litem for every fetus whose womb mother drinks or smokes or more?

--

A corporation has rights under the law. A fetus does not, yet. A pregnant mother has rights and they extend to life in her womb. It is all about the mother.

Some day people may push to grant rights to fetuses, but we do not grant that today. When the day comes that fetuses are considered the same as a fully developed human being they will all have a 'Guardian ad Litem' appointed by the nanny state the right wing religious want so badly.

 

[caela]

Is a fetus is a fully developed human being? Is a fetus entitled to the same legal rights and constitutional privileges as a one day old infant?

Do you advocate legal rights for a fetus in the womb?

Do you argue for a Guardian ad Litem for every fetus whose womb mother drinks or smokes or more?

1) No, of course a fetus isn't a "fully developed" human being, it is a still developing human being. The real question is, does that make it any "less" human that your or I? My own personal belief is that life begins at conception so to me there is no difference between abortion and someone hurting the mother and thus killing the child. They are both murder.

2) No I don't. I may consider them alive and human but I don't walk in anyone's shoes but my own and don't feel I have the right to try and take choices away from someone else. Ultimately such a choice is between a woman, her conscience, and God...I shouldn't be a part of the equation, it's not my life.

3) I would actually argue for a Guardian for fetuses whose mothers are using illegal substances and carrying them to term. To me this is just another form of abuse. I'd like to argue them for smokers and alcoholics too but those substances are legal so I would back off of them because, again, it comes down to the mother making legal choices.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Is a fetus is a fully developed human being? Is a fetus entitled to the same legal rights and constitutional privileges as a one day old infant?

Do you advocate legal rights for a fetus in the womb?

Do you argue for a Guardian ad Litem for every fetus whose womb mother drinks or smokes or more?

1) No, of course a fetus isn't a "fully developed" human being, it is a still developing human being. The real question is, does that make it any "less" human that your or I? My own personal belief is that life begins at conception so to me there is no difference between abortion and someone hurting the mother and thus killing the child. They are both murder.

2) No I don't. I may consider them alive and human but I don't walk in anyone's shoes but my own and don't feel I have the right to try and take choices away from someone else. Ultimately such a choice is between a woman, her conscience, and God...I shouldn't be a part of the equation, it's not my life.

3) I would actually argue for a Guardian for fetuses whose mothers are using illegal substances and carrying them to term. To me this is just another form of abuse. I'd like to argue them for smokers and alcoholics too but those substances are legal so I would back off of them because, again, it comes down to the mother making legal choices.

thank you for your honesty and respect.

The disconnect here is striking. You support allowing a mother to murder (your term) her in-the-womb, human, child because it is legal to do so? Your support is based on legalities?

 

[Againsheila]

A Massachusetts woman was charged with manslaughter and aggravated assault and battery today for allegedly assaulting a woman who was six months pregnant, and causing the death of her unborn fetus.

Ayanna Woodhouse, 25, of Wellesley, Massachusetts was arraigned in Suffolk County Superior Court this morning for the alleged April 10 assault. She pleaded not guilty.
"This is a serious charge," Joseph said in a statement. "The penalties are severe."

The maximum sentence for manslaughter in Massachusetts is 20 years in prison.

Massachusetts Woman Charged with Manslaughter After Assault Victim's Unborn Fetus Dies - ABC News

It will be interesting to see if this sets a precedent.

We have long treated a woman aborting her own fetus differently than another person aborting a fetus that the expectant mother was planning on taking to term.

So, no, I do not think this case will change the law.

And yes, I do think, just in case you're wondering, that that inconsistency as to the status of the fetus, is a valid application of the law.

The differnce is that one fetus was never going to be a child since the mother was rejecting it.

The other fetus was going to become a child because the mother had embraced it AS a child.

It is all about, in my opinion, the woman's right to choose.

IN the case of pregnant woman, and the objection that GOD disapproves?

Well, that will have to be between the woman and GOD.

If you TRULY believe in God and God's final justice, that really ought to be enough in this particular kind of case.

Supposing the father wanted the child? He doesn't get to choose?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Supposing the father wanted the child? He doesn't get to choose?

Can a father force feed a mother? Would you support the father having rights to protect a child?

---

Is a fetus is a fully developed human being? Is a fetus entitled to the same legal rights and constitutional privileges as a one day old infant?

Do you advocate legal rights for a fetus in the womb?

Do you argue for a Guardian ad Litem for every fetus whose womb mother drinks or smokes or more?

--

A corporation has rights under the law. A fetus does not, yet. A pregnant mother has rights and they extend to life in her womb. It is all about the mother.

Some day people may push to grant rights to fetuses, but we do not grant that today. When the day comes that fetuses are considered the same as a fully developed human being they will all have a 'Guardian ad Litem' appointed by the nanny state the right wing religious want so badly.

 

[caela]

Is a fetus is a fully developed human being? Is a fetus entitled to the same legal rights and constitutional privileges as a one day old infant?

Do you advocate legal rights for a fetus in the womb?

Do you argue for a Guardian ad Litem for every fetus whose womb mother drinks or smokes or more?

1) No, of course a fetus isn't a "fully developed" human being, it is a still developing human being. The real question is, does that make it any "less" human that your or I? My own personal belief is that life begins at conception so to me there is no difference between abortion and someone hurting the mother and thus killing the child. They are both murder.

2) No I don't. I may consider them alive and human but I don't walk in anyone's shoes but my own and don't feel I have the right to try and take choices away from someone else. Ultimately such a choice is between a woman, her conscience, and God...I shouldn't be a part of the equation, it's not my life.

3) I would actually argue for a Guardian for fetuses whose mothers are using illegal substances and carrying them to term. To me this is just another form of abuse. I'd like to argue them for smokers and alcoholics too but those substances are legal so I would back off of them because, again, it comes down to the mother making legal choices.

thank you for your honesty and respect.

The disconnect here is striking. You support allowing a mother to murder (your term) her in-the-womb, human, child because it is legal to do so? Your support is based on legalities?

I never said I supported it. I just said I don't have the right to take that choice away from her. It's not my body, my life, my conscience, or my choice.

My own child was unexpected and I am a single parent, the option was there but it wasn't one I could make and I'll be forever grateful to the dictates of my conscience because I have the most adorable 2 year old daughter in the world. However, I have a stable job that pays well and is, somewhat, recession proof since I have fairly high seniority, a union contract, and work in the medical field. I also have a lot of help from my family (hell one of my brother's lives with us and provides daycare for me saving us a ton in daycare costs).

I was in a position to follow the dictates of my conscience. Not everyone is and I don't feel I have the right to stop a woman (or a young teenager) who doesn't have my security, and in fact could be MUCH worse off than I am, that she has no choice but to try and raise a child because that is what my conscience says is right and moral.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I never said I supported it. I just said I don't have the right to take that choice away from her. It's not my body, my life, my conscience, or my choice.

My own child was unexpected and I am a single parent, the option was there but it wasn't one I could make and I'll be forever grateful to the dictates of my conscience because I have the most adorable 2 year old daughter in the world. However, I have a stable job that pays well and is, somewhat, recession proof since I have fairly high seniority, a union contract, and work in the medical field. I also have a lot of help from my family (hell one of my brother's lives with us and provides daycare for me saving us a ton in daycare costs).

I was in a position to follow the dictates of my conscience. Not everyone is and I don't feel I have the right to stop a woman (or a young teenager) who doesn't have my security, and in fact could be MUCH worse off than I am, that she has no choice but to try and raise a child because that is what my conscience says is right and moral.

you used the term 'murder' and I ask, do you feel a moral obligation to try and stop a murder done in the name of what is legal?

I just think if you continue to use the term 'murder' and you want to support a woman's choice, you will always have an inner conflict.

 

[caela]

I never said I supported it. I just said I don't have the right to take that choice away from her. It's not my body, my life, my conscience, or my choice.

My own child was unexpected and I am a single parent, the option was there but it wasn't one I could make and I'll be forever grateful to the dictates of my conscience because I have the most adorable 2 year old daughter in the world. However, I have a stable job that pays well and is, somewhat, recession proof since I have fairly high seniority, a union contract, and work in the medical field. I also have a lot of help from my family (hell one of my brother's lives with us and provides daycare for me saving us a ton in daycare costs).

I was in a position to follow the dictates of my conscience. Not everyone is and I don't feel I have the right to stop a woman (or a young teenager) who doesn't have my security, and in fact could be MUCH worse off than I am, that she has no choice but to try and raise a child because that is what my conscience says is right and moral.

you used the term 'murder' and I ask, do you feel a moral obligation to try and stop a murder done in the name of what is legal?

I just think if you continue to use the term 'murder' and you want to support a woman's choice, you will always have an inner conflict.

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

 

[Zoom-boing]

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

No, at the end of the day abortion is the termination of a human life. What a cop-out hiding behind the 'legal, medical procedure' crap.

 

[caela]

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

No, at the end of the day abortion is the termination of a human life. What a cop-out hiding behind the 'legal, medical procedure' crap.

Actually, if you had read my first post I already said I considered abortion to be murder. It is also, like it or not, a legal medical procedure, and until the law declares it otherwise, it is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's.

I wish we lived in a society where such choices weren't needed but who am I to tell a 14 year old rape victim, or an adult crack-head (extreme examples I know, but still valid) that they have no choice but to be forced to live by my moral code? I'd love to live in a world where only those that were sane, and could care for their offspring, got pregnant but that's not the world we live in and I don't feel I have the right to legislate my morality and my personal choices onto someone else.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I think that I will determine if I have an inner conflict or not thanks. I don't.

And I don't support abortion...I simply don't fight against it. In the end I think it is better to leave abortion legal than have some stupid 14 year old kill herself (and her unborn, thus losing two lives) because of an unwanted pregnancy, or an adult woman dying because of a botched home abortion.

At the end of the day, it is a legal, medical, procedure and is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's. YMMV

No, at the end of the day abortion is the termination of a human life. What a cop-out hiding behind the 'legal, medical procedure' crap.

Actually, if you had read my first post I already said I considered abortion to be murder. It is also, like it or not, a legal medical procedure, and until the law declares it otherwise, it is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's.

I wish we lived in a society where such choices weren't needed but who am I to tell a 14 year old rape victim, or an adult crack-head (extreme examples I know, but still valid) that they have no choice but to be forced to live by my moral code? I'd love to live in a world where only those that were sane, and could care for their offspring, got pregnant but that's not the world we live in and I don't feel I have the right to legislate my morality and my personal choices onto someone else.

"I think its murder but it's a legal, medical procedure so ... " You're a fence straddler.

You'd think protecting an innocent human life would be a morality shared by everyone. Some world we live in, eh?

 

[caela]

No, at the end of the day abortion is the termination of a human life. What a cop-out hiding behind the 'legal, medical procedure' crap.

Actually, if you had read my first post I already said I considered abortion to be murder. It is also, like it or not, a legal medical procedure, and until the law declares it otherwise, it is no one's business but the woman's and her doctor's.

I wish we lived in a society where such choices weren't needed but who am I to tell a 14 year old rape victim, or an adult crack-head (extreme examples I know, but still valid) that they have no choice but to be forced to live by my moral code? I'd love to live in a world where only those that were sane, and could care for their offspring, got pregnant but that's not the world we live in and I don't feel I have the right to legislate my morality and my personal choices onto someone else.

"I think its murder but it's a legal, medical procedure so ... " You're a fence straddler.

You'd think protecting an innocent human life would be a morality shared by everyone. Some world we live in, eh?

On this issue, you're right I do straddle the fence. I never said I didn't. It would be nice to live in a world where those kind of choices aren't necessary, where 10 year olds didn't get raped by their Uncles, where men and women didn't destroy their bodies with substances like crack and heroin, where people actually took responsibility for themselves and their actions. That's not the world we live in though. In that world abortion wouldn't be necessary but in this one it sometimes, tragically, is and I don't think myself a high enough moral authority to tell someone that they can't make that choice when I don't live their lives.