6 Days...

[Delta4Embassy]

According to Genesis it took God 6 days to make the earth, our host star the Sun, amd the heavens (for the sake of this illustration, we'll assume that means all the space in-between the star and planets of our own solar system.)

I've always wondered if anyone ever used the 6 day figure to arrive at a time it took God to make the universe. Realizing I could do that myself I came up with this:

328,767,123,287,671,232,876 years

328 quintillion years to make all the stars and planets in the known universe. Astronomers best guess is the universe is 13.4 billion years old (13,400,000,000)

Methodology:

100 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy

100 billion galaxies in the known universe

Average of 2 planets per star. Excluding planets not orbiting stars which astronomers believe exceeds those in orbit.

6 days to create the solar system we reside in.

 

[PratchettFan]

According to Genesis it took God 6 days to make the earth, our host star the Sun, amd the heavens (for the sake of this illustration, we'll assume that means all the space in-between the star and planets of our own solar system.)

I've always wondered if anyone ever used the 6 day figure to arrive at a time it took God to make the universe. Realizing I could do that myself I came up with this:

328,767,123,287,671,232,876 years

328 quintillion years to make all the stars and planets in the known universe. Astronomers best guess is the universe is 13.4 billion years old (13,400,000,000)

Methodology:

100 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy

100 billion galaxies in the known universe

Average of 2 planets per star. Excluding planets not orbiting stars which astronomers believe exceeds those in orbit.

6 days to create the solar system we reside in.

Sorry to mess up your math, but did you take the 7th day of rest into account? If not, your off by 14.286%. Think how much golf that is.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Some might thkink Genesis is discussing that the 6 days was for the entire universe, but if you look at the actual text, it's describing things happening on the earth, not every planet in the universe, and that those events occured on the first, second, etc day. So we can infer from the text that the creation was just the earth, and the heavens (space) beyond. I'll be generous and widen the scope to be the entire solar system. And I wont even add in the day of rest.

13.4 billion years old our universe is. But 328 quintillion years to make everything is a bit more than that so clearly Genesis, or my methodology is wrong. Can adjust the formulae as you like, just 1 planet per star would halve the result and still be too long, could halve the galaxies and it'd still be wrong,, etc etc. The difference is simply too vast to allow Genesis to be correct.

OPf course, prior to the planet Earth existing, just what's meant by 'a day of time?' A day of time refers to how long it takes the Earth to rotate once on it's own axis. About 24 hours. Prior to the planet existing of course a day could be naything. But even if a day was only 1 hour, 1/24th of 328 quintillion is still MUCH too long.

Good luck finding a way to scrunch down 328 quintillion years to 13.4 billion.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Sorry to mess up your math, but did you take the 7th day of rest into account? If not, your off by 14.286%. Think how much golf that is.

No I didn't, but that'd only make the figure higher. My methodology assume continuous creation with no rest.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I'm eager to see if anyone can devise a methodology to account for this discrepency. To do so you need to squeeze the universe down by like 300 million times.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

On a related tangent, why six days? Why not 12 or 847? Is it simply a literary device establishing the Sabbath with like, "God worked all week but then rested, just as Man now should." Beyond the week and Sabbath is there any significance to 6 or 7 days or 6 n 7 as numbers?

Also, why if God's supposed to be all-powerful did it take measurable time at all? Why not just wiggle his nose like Samantha in "Bewitched" and make it pop into existence instantaneously?

 

[PratchettFan]

I'm eager to see if anyone can devise a methodology to account for this discrepency. To do so you need to squeeze the universe down by like 300 million times.

I expect neither of us buys this story, but what the heck. God created the heavens on the second day.

 

[Mr Natural]

Maybe they measured time differently back then.

Look at Noah, wasn't he like 900 years old when he died?

 

[hotpotato]

Maybe they measured time differently back then.

Look at Noah, wasn't he like 900 years old when he died?

No, he just felt that old after spending most of his life building a cargo ship for all the worlds indigenous species

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Measured time differently back then...What Not even 5800 years ago? Times haven't changed the flow of time THAT much. I mean days get shorter after massive earthquakes like the Japanese 9.1 a few years back, but that only shortened the day but a fraction of a fraction of a second like.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

So Genesis was wrong.

Jesus wasn't related to King David and thus not the Messiah.

Some of the Bible authors were mentally ill (by modern standards heh.)

It's not looking too good for the theists is it? See a lot of "nuh uh" and personal abuse, but no actual empirical rebuttals or evidence to the contrary.

 

[Capstone]

Some might thkink Genesis is discussing that the 6 days was for the entire universe, but if you look at the actual text, it's describing things happening on the earth, not every planet in the universe, and that those events occured on the first, second, etc day. So we can infer from the text that the creation was just the earth, and the heavens (space) beyond. I'll be generous and widen the scope to be the entire solar system. And I wont even add in the day of rest. ...

To say that the text refers only to the creation of Earth, the "heavens" (which you've apparently gone beyond the text to interpret as universally empty "space", though generously allowing for the other bodies in our little solar system), only to infer that the temporal aspects of the text ("in the beginning", multiple "days", ETC.) preclude the existence of anything else in the cosmos ...is an exercise in inconsistency. Why appeal to the text in one instance in order to go beyond it in the next? Moreover, how do you know that "the heavens" were created empty before the creation of Earth and our solar system, when the text doesn't explicitly say that either?! If you're going to hold all Christians to a literal interpretation based on strict adherence to the text itself, you can't be inferring things from unwarranted presuppositions.

Elsewhere in the scriptures...

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3 (NIV)

The Bible is also abundantly clear concerning the all-powerful, omnipresent, and a-temporal nature of the Creator, so there's no need to infer from the temporal aspects of the creation story that He was forced to make the totality of "the heavens" and the Earth within the confines of 'time' as we know it. It may be that He chose to do so in the case of Earth and nowhere else for His own unstated reasons.

There. A non-Christian has now completely undermined the notion that all celestial bodies would have to have been created one at a time along similar 6-day time-frames as the Earth was reportedly created in Genesis.

 

[Darkwind]

Some might thkink Genesis is discussing that the 6 days was for the entire universe, but if you look at the actual text, it's describing things happening on the earth, not every planet in the universe, and that those events occured on the first, second, etc day. So we can infer from the text that the creation was just the earth, and the heavens (space) beyond. I'll be generous and widen the scope to be the entire solar system. And I wont even add in the day of rest.

13.4 billion years old our universe is. But 328 quintillion years to make everything is a bit more than that so clearly Genesis, or my methodology is wrong. Can adjust the formulae as you like, just 1 planet per star would halve the result and still be too long, could halve the galaxies and it'd still be wrong,, etc etc. The difference is simply too vast to allow Genesis to be correct.

OPf course, prior to the planet Earth existing, just what's meant by 'a day of time?' A day of time refers to how long it takes the Earth to rotate once on it's own axis. About 24 hours. Prior to the planet existing of course a day could be naything. But even if a day was only 1 hour, 1/24th of 328 quintillion is still MUCH too long.

Good luck finding a way to scrunch down 328 quintillion years to 13.4 billion.

I had My suspicions that you were essentially just a primate; now I have no doubt of it.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

You'll note one thing about Genesis...

1. Both the Heaven AND the Earth were created in one day.

The term "Heaven" in modern context, (I'm assuming you are attempting to insult people who believe based on modern context) refers to all the heavens. This means that ALL the stars, ALL the galaxies, ALL the light, and ALL the dark were created in one single moment. Not over the course of a six day span.

Now, by all means, spin this to your hearts content as I won't be returning to this thread. To discuss these kinds of issues requires an agreed upon frame of reference and a willingness of all parties to accept and give credence to the supporting evidence of each side.

I think you lack that ability.

Have a nice day.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

To say that the text refers only to the creation of Earth, the "heavens" (which you've apparently gone beyond the text to interpret as universally empty "space", though generously allowing for the other bodies in our little solar system), only to infer that the temporal aspects of the text ("in the beginning", multiple "days", ETC.) preclude the existence of anything else in the cosmos ...is an exercise in inconsistency. Why appeal to the text in one instance in order to go beyond it in the next? Moreover, how do you know that "the heavens" were created empty before the creation of Earth and our solar system, when the text doesn't explicitly say that either?! If you're going to hold all Christians to a literal interpretation based on strict adherence to the text itself, you can't be inferring things from unwarranted presuppositions.

Elsewhere in the scriptures...

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3 (NIV)

The Bible is also abundantly clear concerning the all-powerful, omnipresent, and a-temporal nature of the Creator, so there's no need to infer from the temporal aspects of the creation story that He was forced to make the totality of "the heavens" and the Earth within the confines of 'time' as we know it. It may be that He chose to do so in the case of Earth and nowhere else for His own unstated reasons.

There. A non-Christian has now completely undermined the notion that all celestial bodies would have to have been created one at a time along similar 6-day time-frames as the Earth was reportedly created in Genesis.

You really wanna dance with me? Ohkeydoughkey

Using some other part of the Bible would be fine if it corroborated the account of creation in Genesis (I expanded the reference to include the whole of our solar system by the way to give as much chance as possible for it to be true, as I did again in not figuring in the 7th day, keeping the number of planets small, etc.)

Genesis describes God actually creating the planet Earth, and in doing so it took a total of 6 days (planet itself only took 3 I think, rest of the time was the stuff on the earth.) So to create 1 planet (and solar system) took God 3 or 6 days. That's the Jewish account. Hebrews is actually a Christian text and it's in the Christian New Testament portion of a Bible so a whole other religion separated by let's say 1,000 years. For myself, I have no problem with Christianity as it began, but when they pasted their new reliigous text onto my religion's Tanach that made them a blood enemy just as if Islam took the New Testament Gospels and pasted their Qur'an onto the end of Revelations.

So when discussing things of this nature, mixing up the two OT and NT doesn't make any logical sense when we conceed they're two different and mutually exclusive religions separated by about a thousand years in their authorship. If we wish to accept God created the universe all at once then logically we have to toss out Genesis because in there creating the Earth took x amount of time. Thus refuting the latter work of Hebrews. And if we take the first accounr in Genesis we'd have to dismiss Hebrews. Or, to fix this incompatibility we can limit our discussion to one religious text or the other. But we can't treat them both as valid because they're completely at odds with each other which while not surprising, proves how they're different religions, and mutually exclusive.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I had My suspicions that you were essentially just a primate; now I have no doubt of it.



You'll note one thing about Genesis...

1. Both the Heaven AND the Earth were created in one day.

The term "Heaven" in modern context, (I'm assuming you are attempting to insult people who believe based on modern context) refers to all the heavens. This means that ALL the stars, ALL the galaxies, ALL the light, and ALL the dark were created in one single moment. Not over the course of a six day span.

Now, by all means, spin this to your hearts content as I won't be returning to this thread. To discuss these kinds of issues requires an agreed upon frame of reference and a willingness of all parties to accept and give credence to the supporting evidence of each side.

I think you lack that ability.

Have a nice day.

Thanks. Every day I wake up is a nice day. What can I say, I'm easily pleased.

In Biblical literature, 'the heavens' refers to the sky as when Jesus references Heaven in the Gospel of Thomas (apocrypha) saying something like, "If they say to you heaven is in the air then the birds will preceed you...' What 'heavens' means now isn't what it owuld have meant ~2,000 years ago because back then stars were 'pinholes in the curtain of night' and not 'stars.' It simply refered to the sky above.

From Earth, on presumedly the clearest night imaginable as say 2000 years ago we can see about 5,000 stars with the naked eye (pretty happy here if I see 5 heh.) So if we allow that 'heaven's meant the 'whole of creation' then the universe to the author of the Bible was us, and 5,000 other solar systems. We wouldn't have known about other galaxies and if I recall that was the case until the 20th century. But now we know there are about as many other galaxies as there are stars in this 1 galaxy. So if we retool the forumlae to a 5,000 star galaxy, and each star has an average of 2 planets (current exosolar astronomy suggests planets orbiting stars is the rule rather than the exception, and there are more planets free-floating in-between stars than orbiting them so '2' is a fair number.)

16,438,356,164,383 years. 16.4 trillion years - Still a bit off.

5,000 stars per galaxy

100,000,000,000 galaxies

2 planets per star

times 6 days / 365 (to get years)

 

[Capstone]

...Using some other part of the Bible would be fine if it corroborated the account of creation in Genesis...

That's just it; the verse from Hebrews would only fail to corroborate the Genesis account IF we accepted your premises as to what was meant by "the heavens" at the time of their creation ...as well as the implied limitations you've placed on the Creator's abilities to work both within and without the physical constraints of 'time' (simultaneously, if He so desired). Somehow I doubt those premises would be accepted by many believers.

...Genesis describes God actually creating the planet Earth, and in doing so it took a total of 6 days (planet itself only took 3 I think, rest of the time was the stuff on the earth.) So to create 1 planet (and solar system) took God 3 or 6 days. ...

Not to concede the accuracy of your description there, but even if it were right on the money, it has no bearing on the question as to what constituted "the heavens" ...when "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (note the chronology). Although you're apparently not viewing it so, your description should be viewed as silent on the matter of the Creator's limitations. Just because "it took God 3 or 6 days" to create the Earth and our solar system (according to your generosity) doesn't mean it HAD to take that long, nor does it preclude (as a viable interpretation) the instantaneous/simultaneous generation of the rest of the cosmos at the moment in which "the heavens" were created.

...That's the Jewish account. Hebrews is actually a Christian text and it's in the Christian New Testament portion of a Bible so a whole other religion separated by let's say 1,000 years. ...<snip>...So when discussing things of this nature, mixing up the two OT and NT doesn't make any logical sense when we conceed they're two different and mutually exclusive religions separated by about a thousand years in their authorship....

If you're out to blast Judaism's creation myth as a separate entity from that of Christianity, more power to ya'!

You might have mentioned that in the OP though, since they're virtually identical and your hilarious numbers game (I won't call it an argument) applies to them equally.

Just so you know, the reason I won't call the numbers thing an argument is because both Bereishit of the Torah and Genesis of the Pentateuch make the explicit distinction between the creation of the heavens and the earth ...and both mention the heavens prior to the earth. That means an ALL-POWERFUL, all-knowing, omnipresent, and eternally-existent Creator (such as Yahweh?) could have taken 500 quadrillion years to create "the heavens" before knocking out our little solar system in 6 days, and that wouldn't be the least bit contradictory to either creation tale.

 

[Darkwind]

I had My suspicions that you were essentially just a primate; now I have no doubt of it.



You'll note one thing about Genesis...

1. Both the Heaven AND the Earth were created in one day.

The term "Heaven" in modern context, (I'm assuming you are attempting to insult people who believe based on modern context) refers to all the heavens. This means that ALL the stars, ALL the galaxies, ALL the light, and ALL the dark were created in one single moment. Not over the course of a six day span.

Now, by all means, spin this to your hearts content as I won't be returning to this thread. To discuss these kinds of issues requires an agreed upon frame of reference and a willingness of all parties to accept and give credence to the supporting evidence of each side.

I think you lack that ability.

Have a nice day.

Thanks. Every day I wake up is a nice day. What can I say, I'm easily pleased.

In Biblical literature, 'the heavens' refers to the sky as when Jesus references Heaven in the Gospel of Thomas (apocrypha) saying something like, "If they say to you heaven is in the air then the birds will preceed you...' What 'heavens' means now isn't what it owuld have meant ~2,000 years ago because back then stars were 'pinholes in the curtain of night' and not 'stars.' It simply refered to the sky above.

From Earth, on presumedly the clearest night imaginable as say 2000 years ago we can see about 5,000 stars with the naked eye (pretty happy here if I see 5 heh.) So if we allow that 'heaven's meant the 'whole of creation' then the universe to the author of the Bible was us, and 5,000 other solar systems. We wouldn't have known about other galaxies and if I recall that was the case until the 20th century. But now we know there are about as many other galaxies as there are stars in this 1 galaxy. So if we retool the forumlae to a 5,000 star galaxy, and each star has an average of 2 planets (current exosolar astronomy suggests planets orbiting stars is the rule rather than the exception, and there are more planets free-floating in-between stars than orbiting them so '2' is a fair number.)

16,438,356,164,383 years. 16.4 trillion years - Still a bit off.

5,000 stars per galaxy

100,000,000,000 galaxies

2 planets per star

times 6 days / 365 (to get years)

I guess you don't get it. I'm not surprised.

The heavens is not limited to what you can see, but is an ability of mankind to imagine more than can be seen or proven. Yes, we had that ability even back then and it is what separates us from the primates and other lower mammal life forms.

It encompasses the entirety of existence, meaning all the universe.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

That's just it; the verse from Hebrews would only fail to corroborate the Genesis account IF we accepted your premises as to what was meant by "the heavens" at the time of their creation ...as well as the implied limitations you've placed on the Creator's abilities to work both within and without the physical constraints of 'time' (simultaneously, if He so desired). Somehow I doubt those premises would be accepted by many believers.



Not to concede the accuracy of your description there, but even if it were right on the money, it has no bearing on the question as to what constituted "the heavens" ...when "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (note the chronology). Although you're apparently not viewing it so, your description should be viewed as silent on the matter of the Creator's limitations. Just because "it took God 3 or 6 days" to create the Earth and our solar system (according to your generosity) doesn't mean it HAD to take that long, nor does it preclude (as a viable interpretation) the instantaneous/simultaneous generation of the rest of the cosmos at the moment in which "the heavens" were created.



If you're out to blast Judaism's creation myth as a separate entity from that of Christianity, more power to ya'!

You might have mentioned that in the OP though, since they're virtually identical and your hilarious numbers game (I won't call it an argument) applies to them equally.

Just so you know, the reason I won't call the numbers thing an argument is because both Bereishit of the Torah and Genesis of the Pentateuch make the explicit distinction between the creation of the heavens and the earth ...and both mention the heavens prior to the earth. That means an ALL-POWERFUL, all-knowing, omnipresent, and eternally-existent Creator (such as Yahweh?) could have taken 500 quadrillion years to create "the heavens" before knocking out our little solar system in 6 days, and that wouldn't be the least bit contradictory to either creation tale.

And yet you challenge my 'hilarious numbers game' spending how much time doing so? If it's so wrong, why the investment of time? Hit too close to the mark? Cast doubt and offer a plausible counter-arguement to make people feel better perhaps?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I guess you don't get it. I'm not surprised.

The heavens is not limited to what you can see, but is an ability of mankind to imagine more than can be seen or proven. Yes, we had that ability even back then and it is what separates us from the primates and other lower mammal life forms.

It encompasses the entirety of existence, meaning all the universe.

The universe 2000+ years ago was what they could see over their heads. They had no knowledge of modern astronomy. Or the stuff also in Genesis about a firmament and such wouldn't be there.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

We know the things in Genesis weren't written or revealed by a god because a lot of it's scientificly invalid. So my figures for this issue are correct. The "universe" to the Genesis author was what he could see at night, about 5000 stars. So to him, the entire universe was those 5000 stars. Not the 300 sextillion we know today make up the universe.

If Genesis were revealed by a god, it'd reflect that with proper science, not what reads like 'observational logic.' As with 'the world is flat because it appears flat.' So this whle arguement is kinda moot because I don't belive in gods as religions think of them. My idea of a god is whatever natural process gave rise to the universe existing in the first place, as with whatever mechanism, force, or process caused the big bang, inflation, and all that is to come to be.

But because people who claim to believe the Bible literally annoy me, I offer this thread to show how ridiculous their assertions actually are.

Genesis says it took God 6 days to create 1 solar system. Can't logically use mdoern knowledge to redefine what was created when this was written. It's like past-posting (an old con betting on a race or sporting event already decided.) Since "the universe/heavens" to Man back then was what they could see, at best that's 5000 stars and just 1 galaxy (assuming they had knowledge of even galaxies 1 or otherwise.) And they certainly had no concept of a 13.4 billion year old universe or they'd have made creation take however long to make the math come out properly. It doesn't.

Geneis is wrong both about creation taking 6 days AND the whole 'a god did it' notion. The math doesn't fit and you can plug in any numbers you like.