58% of Burglaries in Britain happen when people are home....unarmed people...

[Pilot1]

The British government has made it clear that its subjects are not legally able to defend themselves from harm by ANY means. They must just resign themselves to be victims of crime including violent crime.

 

[harmonica]

they don't lock their doors?

 

[Vagabond63]

Erm, you are aware that it was a Right wing government in the UK that brought in the hand gun ban in 1997?

Europa has not true Right Wing Governments, only commies who claim to be Right Wing

True, we disposed of the Nazis in 1945, and the Communists in 1991; unfortunately their offspring are trying to make a bit of comeback now in Eastern Europe and the USA, but we're talking about the UK here, do keep up.

No..... the U.S. disposed of the national socialists with a little help from Britain...thanks on behave of our grandfathers for that......... and the communists too...you knuckle heads loved those guys and too many of you still do....

I think you'll find that the Russians disposed of the Nazis with a little help from Britain, America, Poland, Czechoslovakia, France Canada, Belgium and a few others. That's the problem with actual historical facts as opposed to wishful MAGA thinking.

You need to read actual history, and stop listening to left wing propaganda...

.....if not for the United States, the Soviet Union would have fallen to the National Socialists..... Stalin murdered his best military Generals, his policies ensured his troops wouldn't fight, his invasion plan for Germany before the war started left all of his military supplies where the Germans scooped them up.....so we had to supply them with their trucks, planes and other crap......and then, at important points in the German offensives, they had to divert resources to defend against American attacks.....


Actual history....

This article looks at the Soviets during world war 2, their intention to invade the west, which was beaten by Germany invading two weeks early and why they lost so quickly at first...

Russia In World War 2

But what Russian historiography censored for decades, is the large scale of total morale collapse of Soviet armed forces and Communist party establishments which escaped, 'disappeared', or surrendered before they even were engaged in battle. Millions, from privates to Generals, individually or as entire units, abandoned their tanks, guns, air bases, without battle, and escaped on vehicles or on foot, or simply disappeared into the nearby villages and forests.
Fighting and then losing is one thing. Massive and rapid escape without a fight and massive voluntary surrender, are another, and Soviet censorship tried to hide that, by further intensifying the myth of the destructiveness of the German attack, and by further intensifying the belief that the entire red army was right on the border. There are reports of entire unit staffs which escaped without battle and were found again hundreds of kilometers to the East. There were tens of Generals who disappeared and were never located again. There are reports of tank divisions which, although they were not right on the border and were not engaged in fighting in the first day, miraculously 'lost' 100% of their tanks and other fighting equipment in the second day of fighting, without actually being engaged in battle, and then escaped hundreds of kilometers eastwards almost without losing a single truck even to technical malfunction. There are reports of entire Air Force regiments which reported that they suffered negligible or no losses in the air or on the ground at the first day, and then simply abandoned their air bases and escaped by trucks and on foot. In 1941 Russia lost millions of soldiers. Only 32% of the reported losses were the dead and wounded. Millions surrendered, many of them as fast as they could, and so many others escaped from the front, either disappeared or remained in service, but only after a distant escape and after abandoning every weapon or equipment, even rifles and light mortars, that could force them to stay and fight.
The apparent reasons for this mass unwillingness to fight were:

• A further intensified mental shock of those who were always trained educated and taught others that attack and victory are the only possible option, and suddenly found themselves under massive surprise attack for which they never planned or prepared.
• Stalin, the murderous dictator, was surrounded with people who told him much too often what he wanted to hear about Russia's preparations for war. The enormous reported numbers of material production and manpower training were perhaps correct. For example the figures of vast mass-training of pilots (which, by the way, were NOT volunteers, unlike pilots anywhere else in the world), and received minimal training, in order to keep up with the enormous training quotas dictated by Stalin.But what Stalin never suspected, was the possibility that in his regime of mass terror and fear, where so many millions were imprisoned and millions others killed by the police, and where tens of millions starved for years in order to pay for the enormous cost of the vast effort to convert Russia with a period of just two decades from a mostly agricultural country to an industrial militarist super-power with gigantic military power. Stalin never suspected that under a massive attack on his brutal regime, the people, the millions of soldiers who previously suffered from the regime, millions were former political prisoners of which many were recruited from hard labor prisons directly to war front military service, will favor surrender to defending their homeland, or will have no willingness to fight immediately as they realized that since they're country is being massively attacked there's a good chance that they can escape from the war without being punished by the formidable regime. Given the possibility that for the first time in their life non-cooperation with the Communist regime will NOT be severely punished, so many favored that option, and that's something the Russian censorship could never admit.
  So while in all material aspects Russia was enormously prepared for war, and could therefore theoretically manage much better than it did, even under a massive surprise attack, in morale terms, the Russian people in the front (which rapidly moved East all across the long front), were generally unwilling to fight for their terrible terror regime once fear of it was lost since the regime itself was being attacked and in danger.

Also...The Biggest Mistakes In World War 2

• In 1941, Stalin received a stream of information from military intelligence and spies, that Germany is going to invade Russia, as Hitler promised since the 1920s. After discussions, Stalin decided that the information was inconclusive and perhaps deliberate disinformation, and decided that there will be no invasion. As the invasion came nearer, the stream of information indicating invasion intensified, but then Stalin forbid his advisors from further disturbing him with it. Anyone who still suggested that there might be a German invasion, risked execution. Fear was such that when the invasion started, no one dared to awake Stalin and tell him about it, until Zhukov, the deputy supreme commander, told Stalin's bodyguards that he takes responsibility for awakening the dictator and telling him the bad news.

• Both Hitler and Stalin refused to allow retreats, as a matter of principle and regardless of the military situation. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers in each side died in vain because they were not allowed to retreat when was necessary. Russia almost lost the war because of that in 1941, and Hitler's army suffered horrible losses because of that, mainly in the winter of 1942 and in Stalingrad a year later.

Until April 1941, Russia was at war with Japan in the far East, and in 1941-1942 it fought desperately against the German invasion. But since the end of the battle of Stalingrad in Feb. 1943, Russia knew that it was going to win the war, and that Germany and Japan were losing it. It was convenient for Russia to focus entirely on defeating Germany and leave the war against Japan entirely to the US, which also provided Russia with enormous material support. During the war, Russia provided air bases for British heavy bombers which bombed Germany, but refused to provide such bases for American bombers in the Russian far East, apparently in return for a quiet Japanese agreement not to attack American supply convoys sailing to Russia's far East ports.
And from wikipedia...

Soviet Union in World War II - Wikipedia
At the same time, Hitler was worried about American popular support after the U.S. entry into the war following the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and a potential Anglo-American invasion on the Western Front in 1942 (which did not occur until the summer of 1944). He changed his primary goal from an immediate victory in the East, to the more long-term goal of securing the southern Soviet Union to protect oil fields vital to the long-term German war effort.[82] While Red Army generals correctly judged the evidence that Hitler would shift his efforts south, Stalin thought it a flanking move in the German attempt to take Moscow.[81]

----In 1943, Stalin ceded to his generals' call for the Soviet Union to take a defensive stance because of disappointing losses after Stalingrad, a lack of reserves for offensive measures and a prediction that the Germans would likely next attack a bulge in the Soviet front at Kursk such that defensive preparations there would more efficiently use resources.[142]

The Germans did attempt an encirclement attack at Kursk, which was successfully repulsed by the Soviets[142] after Hitler cancelled the offensive, in part, because of the Allied invasion of Sicily,[143] though the Soviets suffered over 800,000 casualties.[144] Kursk also marked the beginning of a period where Stalin became more willing to listen to the advice of his generals.[145]


In the initial hours after the German attack commenced, Stalin hesitated, wanting to ensure that the German attack was sanctioned by Hitler, rather than the unauthorized action of a rogue general.[SUP][53][/SUP] Accounts by Nikita Khrushchev and Anastas Mikoyan claim that, after the invasion, Stalin retreated to his dacha in despair for several days and did not participate in leadership decisions.[SUP][54][/SUP] However, some documentary evidence of orders given by Stalin contradicts these accounts, leading some historians to speculate that Khrushchev's account is inaccurate.[SUP][55][/SUP]

In the first three weeks of the invasion, attempting to defend against large German advances, the Soviet Union suffered 750,000 casualties, and lost 10,000 tanks and 4,000 aircraft.[SUP][56][/SUP] In July 1940, Stalin completely reorganized the Soviet military, placing himself directly in charge of several military organizations, which gave him complete control of his country's entire war effort; more control than any other leader in World War II.[SUP][57][/SUP]


A pattern soon emerged where Stalin embraced the Red Army's strategy of conducting multiple offensives, while the Germans soon overran each of the resulting small newly gained grounds, dealing the Soviets severe casualties.[SUP][58][/SUP] The most notable example of this was the Battle of Kiev, where over 600,000 Soviet troops were quickly killed, captured or had gone missing.[SUP][58][/SUP]

By the end of 1941, the Soviet military had suffered 4.3 million casualties[SUP][59][/SUP] and the Germans had captured 3.0 million Soviet prisoners, 2.0 million of which would die in German captivity by February 1942.[SUP][56][/SUP] German forces had advanced c. 1,700 kilometers, and maintained a linearly-measured front of 3,000 kilometers.[SUP][60][/SUP] The Red Army put up fierce resistance during the war's early stages. Even so, according to Glantz, they were plagued by an ineffective defense doctrine against well-trained and experienced German forces, despite possessing some modern Soviet equipment such as theKV-1 and T-34 tanks.



At the same time, worried by the possibility of American support after their entry into the war following the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and a potential Anglo-American invasion on the Western Front in 1942 (which would not actually happen until 1944), Hitler shifted his primary goal from an immediate victory in the East, to the more long-term goal of securing the southern Soviet Union to protect oil fields vital to the long-term German war effort.[SUP][69[/SUP]


The Germans did attempt an encirclement attack at Kursk, which was successfully repulsed by the Soviets[SUP][78][/SUP] after Hitler canceled the offensive, in part, because of the Allied invasion of Sicily,[SUP][79][/SUP] though the Soviets suffered over 800,000 casualties.[SUP][80][/SUP]




also from wikipedia on the Red Army...

Red Army - Wikipedia

The unprepared Soviet forces suffered much damage in the field because of mediocre officers, partial mobilization, an incomplete reorganization and mainly because they were arranged to attack Central Europe, and not to defend Soviet territory.[SUP][39][/SUP] The hasty pre-war forces expansion and the over-promotion of inexperienced officers (owing to the purging of experienced officers) favored the Wehrmacht in combat.[SUP][39][/SUP]
And another great mistake by Stalin that almost lost the war for the Soviets...

Purges

Further information: Case of Trotskyist Anti-Soviet Military Organization
The late 1930s saw the so-called Purges of the Red Army Cadres, which occurred concurrently with Stalin's Great Purge of Soviet society. In 1936 and 1937, at the orders of Stalin, thousands of Red Army officers were dismissed from their commands. The purges had the objective of cleansing the Red Army of the "politically unreliable elements", mainly among higher-ranking officers. This inevitably provided a convenient pretext for the settling of personal vendettas or to eliminate competition by officers seeking the same command. Many army, corps, and divisional commanders were sacked, most were imprisoned or sent to labor camps; others were executed. Among the victims was the Red Army's primary military theorist, Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky, perceived by Stalin as a potential political rival. Officers who remained soon found all of their decisions being closely examined by political officers, even in mundane matters such as record-keeping and field training exercises.[SUP][72][/SUP] An atmosphere of fear and unwillingness to take the initiative soon pervaded the Red Army; suicide rates among junior officers rose to record levels.[SUP][72][/SUP] Most historians believe that the purges significantly impaired the combat capabilities of the Red Army. However, the extent of the consequential damage attributable to them is still debated.

Recently declassified data indicate that in 1937, at the height of the Purges, the Red Army had 114,300 officers, of whom 11,034 were dismissed. In 1938, the Red Army had 179,000 officers, 56% more than in 1937, of whom a further 6,742 were sacked. In the highest echelons of the Red Army the Purges removed 3 of 5 marshals, 13 of 15 army generals, 8 of 9 admirals, 50 of 57 army corps generals, 154 out of 186 division generals, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars.[SUP][73][/SUP]

The result was that the Red Army officer corps in 1941 had many inexperienced senior officers. While 60% of regimental commanders had two years or more of command experience in June 1941, and almost 80% of rifle division commanders, only 20% of corps commanders, and 5% or fewer army and military district commanders, had the same level of experience.[SUP][74][/SUP]


So no, Russia isn't the hero of anything......without us, there would be a lot more dead Russians....

Blah, blah. The master of cutting and pasting irrelevancies strikes again.

You need to read actual history, and stop listening to left wing propaganda...

I have, that's your basic problem, I've read academic histories from recognised authorities in their field such as David Glantz, Anthony Beevor, Brian Fugate, Norman Davis and Alan Clarke. What your cut and paste fails to mention is that all allied material "aid" to the USSR amounted to less than 20% of what the USSR actually used; the USSR occuped around 75% of Axis forces between 1941 and 1945. While I'd be happy to discuss this further, this is a diversion from the OP, so if you are that interested create a thread in History and I'll post there.

 

[Vagabond63]

Erm, you are aware that it was a Right wing government in the UK that brought in the hand gun ban in 1997?

Europa has not true Right Wing Governments, only commies who claim to be Right Wing

True, we disposed of the Nazis in 1945, and the Communists in 1991; unfortunately their offspring are trying to make a bit of comeback now in Eastern Europe and the USA, but we're talking about the UK here, do keep up.

We have a total of maybe 6 neo-nazis in this country..... the other left wingers outnumber the neo-nazi left wingers by a margin of hundreds of millions....

If you look carefully you'll find that there are lots more than 6 neo-Nazis in America, but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to find them...hint, there's lots in the NRA.

No There aren't a lot in the NRA....nazis are lefties....they take guns from people, they don't let people keep guns...

"Nazis are lefties"! Too funny for words and not worth responding to, but here's a bit of "cut and paste" for you,

"As the Nazi Party rose to power in Germany, it inherited a 1928 gun registration law that had replaced a total ban on gun ownership imposed on a defeated Germany after World War I. The 1928 law created a permit system to own and sell firearms and ammunition.

"But this order was followed quite rarely, so that largely, only newly bought weapons became registered," said Dagmar Ellerbrock, an expert on German gun policies at the Dresden Technical University. "At that time, most men, and many women, still owned the weapons they acquired before or during the first World War."

When they came to power, the Nazis used whatever gun records they had to seize weapons from their enemies, but Ellerbock told us the files included very few of the firearms in circulation.

"In my records, I found many Jews who well into the late 1930s possessed guns," Ellerbock told us.

The Nazis adopted a new gun law in 1938. According to an analysis by Bernard Harcourt, a professor at Columbia University School of Law, it loosened gun ownership rules in several ways.

It deregulated the buying and selling of rifles, shotguns and ammunition. It made handguns easier to own by allowing anyone with a hunting license to buy, sell or carry one at any time. (You didn’t need to be hunting.) It also extended the permit period from one year to three and gave local officials more discretion in letting people under 18 get a gun.

The regulations to implement this law, rather than the law itself, did impose new limits on one group: Jews." Fact-checking Ben Carson's claim that gun control laws allowed the Nazis to carry out Holocaust

Oh, and if you Google "Neo Nazis and the NRA" you get over 600,000 hits...I suppose that's "not a lot of Neo Nazis in the NRA" but there don't have to be to control the organisation

 

[Vagabond63]

The British government has made it clear that its subjects are not legally able to defend themselves from harm by ANY means. They must just resign themselves to be victims of crime including violent crime.

Complete drivel, I've refuted this so many times it's getting boring. Look up UK laws on self defence, I can't be bothered to spoon feed your ignorance.

 

[Vagabond63]

they don't lock their doors?

Most of us do, guess what? It works most of the time.

 

[Likkmee]

They should all take up skeet shooting. keep some #4 buck for really large birds......hood-peckers
British Skeet Shooting Association

 

[2aguy]

Europa has not true Right Wing Governments, only commies who claim to be Right Wing

True, we disposed of the Nazis in 1945, and the Communists in 1991; unfortunately their offspring are trying to make a bit of comeback now in Eastern Europe and the USA, but we're talking about the UK here, do keep up.

We have a total of maybe 6 neo-nazis in this country..... the other left wingers outnumber the neo-nazi left wingers by a margin of hundreds of millions....

If you look carefully you'll find that there are lots more than 6 neo-Nazis in America, but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to find them...hint, there's lots in the NRA.

No There aren't a lot in the NRA....nazis are lefties....they take guns from people, they don't let people keep guns...

"Nazis are lefties"! Too funny for words and not worth responding to, but here's a bit of "cut and paste" for you,

"As the Nazi Party rose to power in Germany, it inherited a 1928 gun registration law that had replaced a total ban on gun ownership imposed on a defeated Germany after World War I. The 1928 law created a permit system to own and sell firearms and ammunition.

"But this order was followed quite rarely, so that largely, only newly bought weapons became registered," said Dagmar Ellerbrock, an expert on German gun policies at the Dresden Technical University. "At that time, most men, and many women, still owned the weapons they acquired before or during the first World War."

When they came to power, the Nazis used whatever gun records they had to seize weapons from their enemies, but Ellerbock told us the files included very few of the firearms in circulation.

"In my records, I found many Jews who well into the late 1930s possessed guns," Ellerbock told us.

The Nazis adopted a new gun law in 1938. According to an analysis by Bernard Harcourt, a professor at Columbia University School of Law, it loosened gun ownership rules in several ways.

It deregulated the buying and selling of rifles, shotguns and ammunition. It made handguns easier to own by allowing anyone with a hunting license to buy, sell or carry one at any time. (You didn’t need to be hunting.) It also extended the permit period from one year to three and gave local officials more discretion in letting people under 18 get a gun.

The regulations to implement this law, rather than the law itself, did impose new limits on one group: Jews." Fact-checking Ben Carson's claim that gun control laws allowed the Nazis to carry out Holocaust

Oh, and if you Google "Neo Nazis and the NRA" you get over 600,000 hits...I suppose that's "not a lot of Neo Nazis in the NRA" but there don't have to be to control the organisation

Yes...that fake idea that the nazis didn't confiscate guns.....

What you don't want to recognize and the liar who put together that piece on the nazis....the left wing socialists.......they banned guns for the people they planned on murdering.....

You aren't the first anti gunner to post that article and who missed the entire point of the article....the national socialists used the gun registration records from the 1920s, to take guns away from the groups they planned on targeting....

When they came to power, the Nazis used whatever gun records they had to seize weapons from their enemies,
-------------------
The regulations to implement this law, rather than the law itself, did impose new limits on one group: Jews."

What happened to the Jews again.....? Do you remember?...cause a lot of left wingers seem to forget what happened to the Jews in Europe, and the gypsys, the handicapped, catholics, homosexuals.....and they were disarmed first........

 

[Pilot1]

Complete drivel, I've refuted this so many times it's getting boring. Look up UK laws on self defence, I can't be bothered to spoon feed your ignorance.

Defend yourself in your home from an intruder by using a WEAPON, and see what happens. Ever own, or shoot a firearm? Ever?

 

[Vagabond63]

They should all take up skeet shooting. keep some #4 buck for really large birds......hood-peckers
British Skeet Shooting Association

We tend to call it clay pigeon shooting, a hobby I might well take up sometime, myself.

 

[Vagabond63]

Complete drivel, I've refuted this so many times it's getting boring. Look up UK laws on self defence, I can't be bothered to spoon feed your ignorance.

Defend yourself in your home from an intruder by using a WEAPON, and see what happens. Ever own, or shoot a firearm? Ever?

Yes, see my post #116 here and subsequent ones if you are interested to find out my actual position on hand guns: In Britain, man afraid of retaliation can't use gun to stay safe...all he did was defend himself....

I just get sick and tired of "guns for all" advocates trying (and failing) to "demonstrate" that gun control in the UK doesn't work. It does.

 

[Vagabond63]

True, we disposed of the Nazis in 1945, and the Communists in 1991; unfortunately their offspring are trying to make a bit of comeback now in Eastern Europe and the USA, but we're talking about the UK here, do keep up.

We have a total of maybe 6 neo-nazis in this country..... the other left wingers outnumber the neo-nazi left wingers by a margin of hundreds of millions....

If you look carefully you'll find that there are lots more than 6 neo-Nazis in America, but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to find them...hint, there's lots in the NRA.

No There aren't a lot in the NRA....nazis are lefties....they take guns from people, they don't let people keep guns...

"Nazis are lefties"! Too funny for words and not worth responding to, but here's a bit of "cut and paste" for you,

"As the Nazi Party rose to power in Germany, it inherited a 1928 gun registration law that had replaced a total ban on gun ownership imposed on a defeated Germany after World War I. The 1928 law created a permit system to own and sell firearms and ammunition.

"But this order was followed quite rarely, so that largely, only newly bought weapons became registered," said Dagmar Ellerbrock, an expert on German gun policies at the Dresden Technical University. "At that time, most men, and many women, still owned the weapons they acquired before or during the first World War."

When they came to power, the Nazis used whatever gun records they had to seize weapons from their enemies, but Ellerbock told us the files included very few of the firearms in circulation.

"In my records, I found many Jews who well into the late 1930s possessed guns," Ellerbock told us.

The Nazis adopted a new gun law in 1938. According to an analysis by Bernard Harcourt, a professor at Columbia University School of Law, it loosened gun ownership rules in several ways.

It deregulated the buying and selling of rifles, shotguns and ammunition. It made handguns easier to own by allowing anyone with a hunting license to buy, sell or carry one at any time. (You didn’t need to be hunting.) It also extended the permit period from one year to three and gave local officials more discretion in letting people under 18 get a gun.

The regulations to implement this law, rather than the law itself, did impose new limits on one group: Jews." Fact-checking Ben Carson's claim that gun control laws allowed the Nazis to carry out Holocaust

Oh, and if you Google "Neo Nazis and the NRA" you get over 600,000 hits...I suppose that's "not a lot of Neo Nazis in the NRA" but there don't have to be to control the organisation

Yes...that fake idea that the nazis didn't confiscate guns.....

What you don't want to recognize and the liar who put together that piece on the nazis....the left wing socialists.......they banned guns for the people they planned on murdering.....

You aren't the first anti gunner to post that article and who missed the entire point of the article....the national socialists used the gun registration records from the 1920s, to take guns away from the groups they planned on targeting....

When they came to power, the Nazis used whatever gun records they had to seize weapons from their enemies,
-------------------
The regulations to implement this law, rather than the law itself, did impose new limits on one group: Jews."

What happened to the Jews again.....? Do you remember?...cause a lot of left wingers seem to forget what happened to the Jews in Europe, and the gypsys, the handicapped, catholics, homosexuals.....and they were disarmed first........

Oh please, you'll start quoting that gun nut, Steven P. Halbrook's BS propaganda piece next. The facts contradict his "theory" as of the 500,000 or so German Jews, over 300,000 emigrated out of Germany during the Nazi era and of the remainder 160,000 to 180,000 (no-one knows the exact figure were deported to the East form 1941 onwards; most of them are assumed to have been killed in one way or another, here's the information from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum: German Jews during the Holocaust, 1939–1945

The Nazis, in any event, did not intend to exterminate their Jewish population before 1939, it was only when they had conquered Poland and later western USSR that a massive Jewish population came under their domination which could not realistically be "removed" by mass migration.

Oh, and here's a good article on why had Jews and other "enemies" of the Nazis been armed it would have made no difference:

Why the 'Citizen Militia' Theory Is the Worst Pro-Gun Argument Ever - The Atlantic