50 years after "I have a dream"....A Progress Report

[Asclepias]

In the long run yes but there has to be buy in from all concerned.

Yes but white women take advantage of AA more than anyone else. Hows that for racism? No matter how many times that's pointed out I feel like white guys need SOMEONE to blame because it has to be the fault of some other race..

I know but undeniably some Black people benefited from it and for that I am happy because it changed attitudes in a least some people. Of course white guys are going to ignore the fact that it benefitted more white women than any other class because it helps their ego and validates their anger.

So its OK for a black person to be angry that they are denied something because they are black, and a woman to be angry they are denied something because they are a woman, but a white male has to be OK with being denied something because they are white or a male?

I never said it was not ok for white men to be angry. i would be angry too if I didnt buy into the concept of making society equal and understanding I would need to sacrifice to achieve that for the greater good.

 

[NightFox]

Affirmative action was necessary and it worked

There's nothing to demonstrate that it was necessary and nothing to demonstrate that it worked. What affirmative action was/is the imposition of morality via the use of force which hasn't been shown to diminish or mitigate the bigotry of anybody, in fact it most often achieves nothing more than creating resentment and propogating injustice.

The goal should never be to impose morality via the use of force the goal should always be to demonstrate to individuals that their attitudes are immoral and unjust through negotiation, persuasion and if necessary non-cooperation. Sure it takes a lot more work but in the end it is a far more effective and a far more just methodology than simply violating the rights of individuals and threatening them with violence if they fail to comply.

One only has to walk through any workplace in America to see that it worked

Women benefitted the most

That's nonsense, what "worked" was 40 years of people being persuaded that bigotry was unjust and immoral, affirmative action just made the process longer than it needed to be.
Next time you want to advocate violating somebodies private property rights and shoving your morality down their throats under the threat of government force, stop and think how much you'd appreciate it if the religious right did the same thing to you with their morality.

"Hypocrites get offended by the truth" -- Jess C. Scott

 

[Esmeralda]

Affirmative action never works and is a stain upon this country. Choosing skin color over someone more qualified is not progress.

Didn't bother the whites to do it to the Africans, Chinese, Mexicans etc., over the last 250 years.

What proof do you have to back up that statement?

LOL Try reading some history.

 

[rightwinger]

There's nothing to demonstrate that it was necessary and nothing to demonstrate that it worked. What affirmative action was/is the imposition of morality via the use of force which hasn't been shown to diminish or mitigate the bigotry of anybody, in fact it most often achieves nothing more than creating resentment and propogating injustice.

The goal should never be to impose morality via the use of force the goal should always be to demonstrate to individuals that their attitudes are immoral and unjust through negotiation, persuasion and if necessary non-cooperation. Sure it takes a lot more work but in the end it is a far more effective and a far more just methodology than simply violating the rights of individuals and threatening them with violence if they fail to comply.

One only has to walk through any workplace in America to see that it worked

Women benefitted the most

That's nonsense, what "worked" was 40 years of people being persuaded that bigotry was unjust and immoral, affirmative action just made the process longer than it needed to be.
Next time you want to advocate violating somebodies private property rights and shoving your morality down their throats under the threat of government force, stop and think how much you'd appreciate it if the religious right did the same thing to you with their morality.

"Hypocrites get offended by the truth" -- Jess C. Scott

Societal mores needed to be changed. The "old boy network" was just too strong. Society was not going to change on its own

Much of the discrimination back then was not based on "I hate blacks" but on a perception of the qualities that made a good manager or a good leader. Those qualities were usually focused on "White Male". If a black could take on white male qualities, he had a chance at advancement. Same went for females. They had to assume white male qualities to advance in the workplace

Diversity has changed much of that and it was mostly government mandated diversity in employment and education

 

[UnbiasedAmerica]

WHITE vs. BLACK
65% vs. 12% - Percent of Total Population (census)
81% vs. 6% - Percent of Total Management Level Jobs (EEOC)
38% vs. 35% - Percent of Total Abortions in America (CDC)

22% vs. 55% - Children Living with Single Parent (census)
29% vs. 73% - Children Born Out of Wedlock (census)
13% vs. 34% - Children Living in Poverty (census)
8% vs. 20% - Never Married, 45 Years Old+ (census)
29% vs. 18% - College Degrees, 25 Years Old+ (census)
17% vs 47% - Percent in Welfare Programs (BLS)

6.7% vs. 13.5% - Unemployment Rate (BLS)
$55k vs. $32k - Median Household Income (census)
$30k vs. $21k - Median Individual Income (census)
79 vs. 74 - Life Expectancy (CDC)
678 vs. 4347 - Incarceration Rates Per 100,000 Population (FBI)

Blacks accounted for 38% of Violent Crime and 30% of Property Crime in 2011, despite making up just 12% of the U.S. population (FBI)

Blacks score worse than whites, Asians, and Hispanics in all major school subjects (US Dept of Education)

 

[ClosedCaption]

No in that case it would be sexism then. Still wrong.

Funny, AA only becomes sexism after the white women fact is thrown out. When it's not thrown out white guys think its all racist against whites. Now why do you think whites don't know or don't retain that simple fact and continue to blame blacks?

Matter fact why do white guys skip over white women who are the first group to get it AND Asians who are the second group and jump straight to number 3?

Sexism? Now, I'm waiting for ANYONE to make the argument that women too don't deserve "special treatment" because the days of discrimination is over. Just one guy to take the word black and replace it with women...

No one deserves special treatment. Its your tired fixation on the nuances of this topic that quite frankly ends up making you like a blithering idiot.

Right, so curiously where are all the threads going on about how womens special treatment isn't needed anymore? Did you burn out all your energy on the blacks?

Where are the arguments they use against blacks saying "there was a time when women needed these laws but no more." Because blacks come up pretty fucking often.

 

[NightFox]

One only has to walk through any workplace in America to see that it worked

Women benefitted the most

That's nonsense, what "worked" was 40 years of people being persuaded that bigotry was unjust and immoral, affirmative action just made the process longer than it needed to be.
Next time you want to advocate violating somebodies private property rights and shoving your morality down their throats under the threat of government force, stop and think how much you'd appreciate it if the religious right did the same thing to you with their morality.

"Hypocrites get offended by the truth" -- Jess C. Scott

Societal mores needed to be changed. The "old boy network" was just too strong. Society was not going to change on its own

Much of the discrimination back then was not based on "I hate blacks" but on a perception of the qualities that made a good manager or a good leader. Those qualities were usually focused on "White Male". If a black could take on white male qualities, he had a chance at advancement. Same went for females. They had to assume white male qualities to advance in the workplace

Diversity has changed much of that and it was mostly government mandated diversity in employment and education

Assertions without evidence, my evidence is that attitudes have changed so the "old boy network" as you call it apparently wasn't as strong as you claim, nor is there any evidence the violation of private property rights and threats of violence against private property owners were anything but counter-productive in achieving those goals. The only places where federal affirmative action laws ever made any sense was their implementation upon federal hiring practices and withholding federal funding from public/private institutions that failed to meet diversity criteria.

Telling a private business owner that he/she must meet some arbitrary diversity criteria or face punishment from the federal government has never been nor ever will be just or moral. Anyone that can't understand the resentment that such laws breed need only imagine how they would react if somebody Else's morality were similarly imposed upon them and their private property.

Those that are immoral and unjust resort to force as a method of behavior of modification, those who are just and moral rely on negotiation and persuasion.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

 

[ClosedCaption]

WHITE vs. BLACK
65% vs. 12% - Percent of Total Population (census)
81% vs. 6% - Percent of Total Management Level Jobs (EEOC)
38% vs. 35% - Percent of Total Abortions in America (CDC)

22% vs. 55% - Children Living with Single Parent (census)
29% vs. 73% - Children Born Out of Wedlock (census)
13% vs. 34% - Children Living in Poverty (census)
8% vs. 20% - Never Married, 45 Years Old+ (census)
29% vs. 18% - College Degrees, 25 Years Old+ (census)
17% vs 47% - Percent in Welfare Programs (BLS)

6.7% vs. 13.5% - Unemployment Rate (BLS)
$55k vs. $32k - Median Household Income (census)
$30k vs. $21k - Median Individual Income (census)
79 vs. 74 - Life Expectancy (CDC)
678 vs. 4347 - Incarceration Rates Per 100,000 Population (FBI)

Blacks accounted for 38% of Violent Crime and 30% of Property Crime in 2011, despite making up just 12% of the U.S. population (FBI)

Blacks score worse than whites, Asians, and Hispanics in all major school subjects (US Dept of Education)

And after slavery, Jim Crow, higher rates of incarceration, unfair justice and law system, Inner City schools being unfunded or barely, unfair hiring practices and unfair housing this surprises you why?

 

[Billo_Really]

I think we should compare the MLK civil rights march 50 years ago today, with the only two other major marches on Washington in US history:

• The anti-Iraq war march in 2003
• The "bagger nation" march in 2009

Let's start with the anti-war march...

The February 15, 2003 anti-war protest was a coordinated day of protests across the world in which people in more than 600 cities. Social movement researchers have described the 15 February protest as "the largest protest event in human history."

Sources vary in their estimations of the number of participants involved. According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.

That's pretty big!

But I'll still give the nod to the MLK march on "significance points".

Okay, now let's look at the "bagger nation" march in 2009...

Taxpayer March on Washington

A wide range of crowd estimates was suggested for the event, with most media sourcing the Public Information Officer of the D.C. Fire Department who unofficially estimated the attendance "in excess of 75,000" people.

6 months in to a Presidents first term and these dumbass American's march on Washington to protest the raising of taxes (that were actually lowered), government spending (on everything accept the military) and the government becoming socialist (which didn't exist).

When you look at the 3 largest marches in history on Washington, one stands out as pure non-sense!

 

[ClosedCaption]

One only has to walk through any workplace in America to see that it worked

Women benefitted the most

That's nonsense, what "worked" was 40 years of people being persuaded that bigotry was unjust and immoral, affirmative action just made the process longer than it needed to be.
Next time you want to advocate violating somebodies private property rights and shoving your morality down their throats under the threat of government force, stop and think how much you'd appreciate it if the religious right did the same thing to you with their morality.

"Hypocrites get offended by the truth" -- Jess C. Scott

Societal mores needed to be changed. The "old boy network" was just too strong. Society was not going to change on its own

Much of the discrimination back then was not based on "I hate blacks" but on a perception of the qualities that made a good manager or a good leader. Those qualities were usually focused on "White Male". If a black could take on white male qualities, he had a chance at advancement. Same went for females. They had to assume white male qualities to advance in the workplace

Diversity has changed much of that and it was mostly government mandated diversity in employment and education

In this "penetrating new analysis" (New York Times Book Review) Ira Katznelson fundamentally recasts our understanding of twentieth-century American history and demonstrates that all the key programs passed during the New Deal and Fair Deal era of the 1930s and 1940s were created in a deeply discriminatory manner. Through mechanisms designed by Southern Democrats that specifically excluded maids and farm workers, the gap between blacks and whites actually widened despite postwar prosperity. In the words of noted historian Eric Foner, "Katznelson's incisive book should change the terms of debate about affirmative action, and about the last seventy years of American history."

 

[UnbiasedAmerica]

WHITE vs. BLACK
65% vs. 12% - Percent of Total Population (census)
81% vs. 6% - Percent of Total Management Level Jobs (EEOC)
38% vs. 35% - Percent of Total Abortions in America (CDC)

22% vs. 55% - Children Living with Single Parent (census)
29% vs. 73% - Children Born Out of Wedlock (census)
13% vs. 34% - Children Living in Poverty (census)
8% vs. 20% - Never Married, 45 Years Old+ (census)
29% vs. 18% - College Degrees, 25 Years Old+ (census)
17% vs 47% - Percent in Welfare Programs (BLS)

6.7% vs. 13.5% - Unemployment Rate (BLS)
$55k vs. $32k - Median Household Income (census)
$30k vs. $21k - Median Individual Income (census)
79 vs. 74 - Life Expectancy (CDC)
678 vs. 4347 - Incarceration Rates Per 100,000 Population (FBI)

Blacks accounted for 38% of Violent Crime and 30% of Property Crime in 2011, despite making up just 12% of the U.S. population (FBI)

Blacks score worse than whites, Asians, and Hispanics in all major school subjects (US Dept of Education)

And after slavery, Jim Crow, higher rates of incarceration, unfair justice and law system, Inner City schools being unfunded or barely, unfair hiring practices and unfair housing this surprises you why?

Maybe it's time we admitted our welfare programs don't work, and may actually be holding people down.

 

[rightwinger]

WHITE vs. BLACK
65% vs. 12% - Percent of Total Population (census)
81% vs. 6% - Percent of Total Management Level Jobs (EEOC)
38% vs. 35% - Percent of Total Abortions in America (CDC)

22% vs. 55% - Children Living with Single Parent (census)
29% vs. 73% - Children Born Out of Wedlock (census)
13% vs. 34% - Children Living in Poverty (census)
8% vs. 20% - Never Married, 45 Years Old+ (census)
29% vs. 18% - College Degrees, 25 Years Old+ (census)
17% vs 47% - Percent in Welfare Programs (BLS)

6.7% vs. 13.5% - Unemployment Rate (BLS)
$55k vs. $32k - Median Household Income (census)
$30k vs. $21k - Median Individual Income (census)
79 vs. 74 - Life Expectancy (CDC)
678 vs. 4347 - Incarceration Rates Per 100,000 Population (FBI)

Blacks accounted for 38% of Violent Crime and 30% of Property Crime in 2011, despite making up just 12% of the U.S. population (FBI)

Blacks score worse than whites, Asians, and Hispanics in all major school subjects (US Dept of Education)

And after slavery, Jim Crow, higher rates of incarceration, unfair justice and law system, Inner City schools being unfunded or barely, unfair hiring practices and unfair housing this surprises you why?

Maybe it's time we admitted our welfare programs don't work, and may actually be holding people down.

What is your alternative? Jobs?

 

[ClosedCaption]

WHITE vs. BLACK
65% vs. 12% - Percent of Total Population (census)
81% vs. 6% - Percent of Total Management Level Jobs (EEOC)
38% vs. 35% - Percent of Total Abortions in America (CDC)

22% vs. 55% - Children Living with Single Parent (census)
29% vs. 73% - Children Born Out of Wedlock (census)
13% vs. 34% - Children Living in Poverty (census)
8% vs. 20% - Never Married, 45 Years Old+ (census)
29% vs. 18% - College Degrees, 25 Years Old+ (census)
17% vs 47% - Percent in Welfare Programs (BLS)

6.7% vs. 13.5% - Unemployment Rate (BLS)
$55k vs. $32k - Median Household Income (census)
$30k vs. $21k - Median Individual Income (census)
79 vs. 74 - Life Expectancy (CDC)
678 vs. 4347 - Incarceration Rates Per 100,000 Population (FBI)

Blacks accounted for 38% of Violent Crime and 30% of Property Crime in 2011, despite making up just 12% of the U.S. population (FBI)

Blacks score worse than whites, Asians, and Hispanics in all major school subjects (US Dept of Education)

And after slavery, Jim Crow, higher rates of incarceration, unfair justice and law system, Inner City schools being unfunded or barely, unfair hiring practices and unfair housing this surprises you why?

Maybe it's time we admitted our welfare programs don't work, and may actually be holding people down.

I see you missed my question

And after slavery, Jim Crow, higher rates of incarceration, unfair justice and law system, Inner City schools being unfunded or barely, unfair hiring practices and unfair housing this surprises you why?

 

[Asclepias]

WHITE vs. BLACK
65% vs. 12% - Percent of Total Population (census)
81% vs. 6% - Percent of Total Management Level Jobs (EEOC)
38% vs. 35% - Percent of Total Abortions in America (CDC)

22% vs. 55% - Children Living with Single Parent (census)
29% vs. 73% - Children Born Out of Wedlock (census)
13% vs. 34% - Children Living in Poverty (census)
8% vs. 20% - Never Married, 45 Years Old+ (census)
29% vs. 18% - College Degrees, 25 Years Old+ (census)
17% vs 47% - Percent in Welfare Programs (BLS)

6.7% vs. 13.5% - Unemployment Rate (BLS)
$55k vs. $32k - Median Household Income (census)
$30k vs. $21k - Median Individual Income (census)
79 vs. 74 - Life Expectancy (CDC)
678 vs. 4347 - Incarceration Rates Per 100,000 Population (FBI)

Blacks accounted for 38% of Violent Crime and 30% of Property Crime in 2011, despite making up just 12% of the U.S. population (FBI)

Blacks score worse than whites, Asians, and Hispanics in all major school subjects (US Dept of Education)

And after slavery, Jim Crow, higher rates of incarceration, unfair justice and law system, Inner City schools being unfunded or barely, unfair hiring practices and unfair housing this surprises you why?

Maybe it's time we admitted our welfare programs don't work, and may actually be holding people down.

So what do you think should be done with welfare since there are more whites on it than any other demographic?

 

[LeftofLeft]

Affirmative Action, one would think, is when a process is put in place to make sure equally qualified applicants (e.g. schools, jobs, etc.) are not being turned down because of gender, race, religion. What good does it do for the black woman surgeon who may be more qualified and accomplished across the playing field among his peers if schools are lowering the bar for more blacks and women? For the accomplished surgeon, EVERYONE is going to be questioning her credentials because different criteria exists for different students.

 

[naturegirl]

You can only be a victim for so long, you can only hold down an entire group of people for so long. We can choose to remain clueless or you can quit letting people repress us.

Moving forward and having successful lives is available to everyone once they are released from their own victimization.

 

[NightFox]

Affirmative Action, one would think, is when a process is put in place to make sure equally qualified applicants (e.g. schools, jobs, etc.) are not being turned down because of gender, race, religion. What good does it do for the black woman surgeon who may be more qualified and accomplished across the playing field among his peers if schools are lowering the bar for more blacks and women? For the accomplished surgeon, EVERYONE is going to be questioning her credentials because different criteria exists for different students.

If two "applicants" are equally qualified then what difference does it make what criteria are used to select which one of them is chosen? Passing a law isn't going to eliminate the internal bias(es) of the decision maker.

 

[Political Junky]

It seems Republicans all had something better to do today than accept invitations to attend the celebration at the Mall.

 

[UnbiasedAmerica]

So what do you think should be done with welfare since there are more whites on it than any other demographic?

47% of African-Americans participate in means-tested welfare programs, vs. 17% of whites. These policies therefore have a much bigger impact on blacks proportionally that on whites.

And the worst effect of welfare is the disincentive it creates to advance at work. Check out this graph:

 

[Asclepias]

So what do you think should be done with welfare since there are more whites on it than any other demographic?

47% of African-Americans participate in means-tested welfare programs, vs. 17% of whites. These policies therefore have a much bigger impact on blacks proportionally that on whites.

And the worst effect of welfare is the disincentive it creates to advance at work. Check out this graph:

Beautiful graph but you seem to miss my point. There are more whites on welfare than Blacks. What happens to those whites when they change or eliminate welfare?