5 Myths About Global Health Care

[Chris]

This is the type of information that should be out there and then let people come up with their own opinion based on truth.

That and the truth that healthcare corporations donated $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS to Congress in the last decade.

Obama is trying to take back the system for the people, but the Republicans, the Blue Dog Democrats, and the right wing media is trying to keep it in the hands of the greedheads.

 

[Bern80]

This is the type of information that should be out there and then let people come up with their own opinion based on truth.

That and the truth that healthcare corporations donated $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS to Congress in the last decade.

Obama is trying to take back the system for the people, but the Republicans, the Blue Dog Democrats, and the right wing media is trying to keep it in the hands of the greedheads.

You can't handle the truth. Sorry to sound cliche, but it's the....ah....truth. The TRUTH is there is almost no one, left side of the aisle or right, who doesn't want to fix the system, reduce costs, get everyone covered, etc.

The TRUTH is anyone who doesn't have their head lodged up Obama's ass like you do, can see his plan has little chance of accomplishing any of those things.

 

[Care4all]

Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...

It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?

I'm not scared of it as all (see above). Simply because I'm smart enough to know showing what another country is doing is not evidence that it will work here. That's the shocker care. There are all kinds of people here saying this is what country x or y is doing and it's working just great for them. When in almost every case they're are ignoring the bad parts, like while Frances model is heald up, the fact that it is losing money by the millions gets swept under the rug. Further, those they do point to county x or y has having a good system have yet to take the next step. Being showing some evidence that if applied here it will actually work.

i do not disagree with you....i do not think any one health care system out there from these other countries would fit us like a glove.

But I do think that we are smart enough to figure out thru in depth analysis and real life test areas what is truly good reform that does benefit all of our individual citizens (and not necessarily only what benefits the corporations), if only both sides could throw out all that they believe due to partisanship, out with the bath water and start from square one!

Being that our gvt pays or shares in the cost of the majority of American's health care, if nothing is done, it will bankrupt us....forget the recession and bailouts, medicare is the scary one!

care

 

[Toro]

Here is a question.

Why should health insurance companies be for-profit? Why not non-profit?

Mutual insurance companies have a long history in this country, whether it is life insurance or home insurance. Credit unions are vibrant. These companies are run for the benefits of the members, not the shareholders.

There is a fundamental tension between insurance companies answering to shareholders and the people they insure. There is no tension between mutual insurers and its members. First and foremost, they serve their members where as for-profit companies first and foremost serve shareholders.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

1. It's all socialized medicine out there.

Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance. But many wealthy countries -- including Germany, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland -- provide universal coverage using private doctors, private hospitals and private insurance plans. ...

2. Overseas, care is rationed through limited choices or long lines.

Generally, no. Germans can sign up for any of the nation's 200 private health insurance plans -- a broader choice than any American has. If a German doesn't like her insurance company, she can switch to another, with no increase in premium. The Swiss, too, can choose any insurance plan in the country.

In France and Japan, you don't get a choice of insurance provider; you have to use the one designated for your company or your industry. But patients can go to any doctor, any hospital, any traditional healer. There are no U.S.-style limits such as "in-network" lists of doctors or "pre-authorization" for surgery. You pick any doctor, you get treatment -- and insurance has to pay. ...

3. Foreign health-care systems are inefficient, bloated bureaucracies.

Much less so than here. It may seem to Americans that U.S.-style free enterprise -- private-sector, for-profit health insurance -- is naturally the most cost-effective way to pay for health care. But in fact, all the other payment systems are more efficient than ours.

U.S. health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs in the world; they spend roughly 20 cents of every dollar for nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing. France's health insurance industry, in contrast, covers everybody and spends about 4 percent on administration. Canada's universal insurance system, run by government bureaucrats, spends 6 percent on administration. In Taiwan, a leaner version of the Canadian model has administrative costs of 1.5 percent; one year, this figure ballooned to 2 percent, and the opposition parties savaged the government for wasting money. ...

4. Cost controls stifle innovation.

False. The United States is home to groundbreaking medical research, but so are other countries with much lower cost structures. Any American who's had a hip or knee replacement is standing on French innovation. Deep-brain stimulation to treat depression is a Canadian breakthrough. Many of the wonder drugs promoted endlessly on American television, including Viagra, come from British, Swiss or Japanese labs. ...

5. Health insurance has to be cruel. ...

Foreign health insurance companies, in contrast, must accept all applicants, and they can't cancel as long as you pay your premiums. The plans are required to pay any claim submitted by a doctor or hospital (or health spa), usually within tight time limits. The big Swiss insurer Groupe Mutuel promises to pay all claims within five days. "Our customers love it," the group's chief executive told me. The corollary is that everyone is mandated to buy insurance, to give the plans an adequate pool of rate-payers.

The key difference is that foreign health insurance plans exist only to pay people's medical bills, not to make a profit. The United States is the only developed country that lets insurance companies profit from basic health coverage.

washingtonpost.com

Global health care? .....perhaps that is another issue....

In any case....you make some good points....not all government programs are as horrible as...say... Britain's socialized medicine plan....

Germany (followed by Switzerland) is probably the best government plan out there today and it is also the oldest. Their system is a mixture of public and private. Germans are very efficient.......Germany only pays about 10% of its GDP for healthcare while the U.S. pays about 14% of its GDP. The govt. provides a pool for the hundreds of state regulated plans. Everyone must pay 14% of their gross income for health insurance (employers pay half of that). Other funds come from income taxes, funds derived from private insurance, and out of pocket payments. About 50 million of the 80 million German population belong to the government health plan. The self-employed must buy private insurance and those making 4k or more can opt out and buy private insurance. About half the hospitals are public and about half are private.

To keep costs down the German govt. is doing things like freezing wages on hospital workers. Among other problems they lack enough screening facilities like for detecting breast cancer, etc.

Also it has become like a "two-class system" where the rich can buy private comprehensive health care while the vast majority participate in the government program and must make do with basic health care.

It seems to me that private health care underlies all the "good" govenment programs. It would almost be impossible for Americans to adopt a streamlined government system like the Germans....and besides we don't want to.....so why don't we Americans just improve our private health care system instead of adopting some sort of bastardized socialized care plan like Obama's?

 

[Toro]

One thing other countries do not have are the insane tort laws. Removing the threat of a lawsuit would probably decrease healthcare costs substantially.

 

[Bern80]

Here is a question.

Why should health insurance companies be for-profit? Why not non-profit?

Mutual insurance companies have a long history in this country, whether it is life insurance or home insurance. Credit unions are vibrant. These companies are run for the benefits of the members, not the shareholders.

There is a fundamental tension between insurance companies answering to shareholders and the people they insure. There is no tension between mutual insurers and its members. First and foremost, they serve their members where as for-profit companies first and foremost serve shareholders.

I am inclined to not have a problem with that. May have to think about it a bit more.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

One thing other countries do not have are the insane tort laws. Removing the threat of a lawsuit would probably decrease healthcare costs substantially.

Absolutely.

Another thing that needs to be done is allow cross-border insurance. Why should we be tied to just one group of doctors?

 

[Contumacious]

Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...

It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?

Canada, France and the UK offer extremely bad healthcare and each of those countries system is going bankrupt.

Let me remind you that the federal government has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY to be in the healthcare business and it is precisely because of government involvement that healthcare in this country is so expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.

 

[Care4all]

Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...

It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?

Canada, France and the UK offer extremely bad healthcare and each of those countries system is going bankrupt.

Let me remind you that the federal government has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY to be in the healthcare business and it is precisely because of government involvement that healthcare in this country is so expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.

They have EVERY REASON to be involved in the health care of our citizens, without a healthy and educated citizenry, our democracy fails....

It is more constitutional for our government to legislate, makining our health care system better than it is for them to pay for a war that was never declared by congress, or for the trillion dollars in stimulus just handed to the financial industry that was responsible for bring America to its knees financially....or for congress to legislate new bankruptcy laws heavily weighted to benefit the banking industry over the citizen themselves, and quite a number of other things that I am certain you could help me add to this list of mine on what seems unconstitutional....

How well of a citizenry can be argued under the general welfare clause....and under the safety of this country as well....47.5 million without healthcare for a year could be very dangerous to all of us if any kind of serious plague reached and spread in the united states, such as the swine flu, or bird flu or small pox again....we as a country have involved our government with our health care needs over and over again, since our inception almost, with mandatory vaccinations, child immunizations that are mandatory, Veterans health care, Military health care, retired military and gvt employee health care, congress's health care, the healthcare with Children with SCHIPS, paying for a nurse in all schools for health care of the students, funding low income or free clinics, MEDICARE and MEDICAID....gosh, what have I missed? Oh yeah, they give tax credits to employer's contributing to their employee's health care insurance!

Well, anyway, I hope you get my drift....

I also do not believe the government can run hospitals or supply us with doctors, I do believe this should and must, stay in the PRIVATE SECTOR...but I do not believe it is out of the constitutional realm of power of congress, to develop a system that works for all Americans by reducing its costs.

Care

 

[Bern80]

Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...

It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?

Canada, France and the UK offer extremely bad healthcare and each of those countries system is going bankrupt.

Let me remind you that the federal government has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY to be in the healthcare business and it is precisely because of government involvement that healthcare in this country is so expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.

They have EVERY REASON to be involved in the health care of our citizens, without a healthy and educated citizenry, our democracy fails....

It is more constitutional for our government to legislate, makining our health care system better than it is for them to pay for a war that was never declared by congress, or for the trillion dollars in stimulus just handed to the financial industry that was responsible for bring America to its knees financially....or for congress to legislate new bankruptcy laws heavily weighted to benefit the banking industry over the citizen themselves, and quite a number of other things that I am certain you could help me add to this list of mine on what seems unconstitutional....

How well of a citizenry can be argued under the general welfare clause....and under the safety of this country as well....47.5 million without healthcare for a year could be very dangerous to all of us if any kind of serious plague reached and spread in the united states, such as the swine flu, or bird flu or small pox again....we as a country have involved our government with our health care needs over and over again, since our inception almost, with mandatory vaccinations, child immunizations that are mandatory, Veterans health care, Military health care, retired military and gvt employee health care, congress's health care, the healthcare with Children with SCHIPS, paying for a nurse in all schools for health care of the students, funding low income or free clinics, MEDICARE and MEDICAID....gosh, what have I missed? Oh yeah, they give tax credits to employer's contributing to their employee's health care insurance!

No it really can't be argued that way Care. This was a topic on here some time ago. You are referring to to Article I, Section 8. Delinieating what the Fed can do. The first phrase does mention 'promote the general welfare'. Now come on care, you have to be intelliectually honest enough to admit that in terms of restricting the power of government, which was the founders intent such a phrase could be used to justify damn near anything. that's why if you read Section 8 a little further you will notice that the list of what government can do gets quite specific. Madison in Federalist 41 delineates why it was so specific so that it be understood if it is not there the Fed can't do it.

 

[Contumacious]

Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...

It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?

Canada, France and the UK offer extremely bad healthcare and each of those countries system is going bankrupt.

Let me remind you that the federal government has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY to be in the healthcare business and it is precisely because of government involvement that healthcare in this country is so expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.

They have EVERY REASON to be involved in the health care of our citizens, without a healthy and educated citizenry, our democracy fails....

You are confusing the Nazi Party Platform with our Constitution:


Nazi Party Platform


21. The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievement of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and maximum support for all organizations providing physical training for young people.

 

[Mad Scientist]

From the article:

In Japan, waiting times are so short that most patients don't bother to make an appointment. One Thursday morning in Tokyo, I called the prestigious orthopedic clinic at Keio University Hospital to schedule a consultation about my aching shoulder. "Why don't you just drop by?" the receptionist said. That same afternoon, I was in the surgeon's office. Dr. Nakamichi recommended an operation. "When could we do it?" I asked. The doctor checked his computer and said, "Tomorrow would be pretty difficult. Perhaps some day next week?"

My ex-wife is a Nurse in Japan. She is also part of a board that is looking into cutting the cost of National Health Care which is bankrupting the nation. Can you uess where they're looking to and consulting with?:

America.

My ex says that since people can come in anytime they want and for just about any minor ailment they have they get many people who just come in because they are lonely and need someone to talk to. There's nothing wrong with them.

Sidebar: My ex used to come home all the time with crazy stories about people she had cared for in the Hospital. One guy used to come in at least once a month because his anus was bleeding. When asked by the Doctors what he was doing that was causing this he finally replied that he was jamming chop sticks up his ass! Not the shiny laquered ones but the disposable plain wooden ones. Apparently they were splintering and causing the damage!

I knew you guys would like that one!

 

[Care4all]

From the article:

In Japan, waiting times are so short that most patients don't bother to make an appointment. One Thursday morning in Tokyo, I called the prestigious orthopedic clinic at Keio University Hospital to schedule a consultation about my aching shoulder. "Why don't you just drop by?" the receptionist said. That same afternoon, I was in the surgeon's office. Dr. Nakamichi recommended an operation. "When could we do it?" I asked. The doctor checked his computer and said, "Tomorrow would be pretty difficult. Perhaps some day next week?"

My ex-wife is a Nurse in Japan. She is also part of a board that is looking into cutting the cost of National Health Care which is bankrupting the nation. Can you uess where they're looking to and consulting with?:

America.

My ex says that since people can come in anytime they want and for just about any minor ailment they have they get many people who just come in because they are lonely and need someone to talk to. There's nothing wrong with them.

Sidebar: My ex used to come home all the time with crazy stories about people she had cared for in the Hospital. One guy used to come in at least once a month because his anus was bleeding. When asked by the Doctors what he was doing that was causing this he finally replied that he was jamming chop sticks up his ass! Not the shiny laquered ones but the disposable plain wooden ones. Apparently they were splintering and causing the damage!

I knew you guys would like that one!

it is NOT bankrupting their nation?

the people pay for their own health insurance, splitting it with employers and the policy is much less than half the price of ours for a family...everyone is REQUIRED to buy it, those who can't afford it are helped. there are absolutely no restrictions, all the healthcare anyone wants, can see any doctor or specialist in any and every hospital...they visit the doctor 3 times more a year than we do on average in the usa... no limits on any medical diagnostics or hospital care either and only 1 day at most, wait times.

they have private non profit insurance companies for all.

the problem with their system is the reimbursement rate is TOO LOW for the private hospitals (50% hurting financially) and private doctor's businesses...which is regulated by their gvt and which can be also be corrected.

Japanese Pay Less for More Health Care : NPR

 

[jreeves]

This is the type of information that should be out there and then let people come up with their own opinion based on truth.

That and the truth that healthcare corporations donated $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS to Congress in the last decade.

Obama is trying to take back the system for the people, but the Republicans, the Blue Dog Democrats, and the right wing media is trying to keep it in the hands of the greedheads.

Yep just like his deal with Big Pharm...

 

[Chris]

Japan is going bankrupt?

Who knew?

 

[jreeves]

From the article:

My ex-wife is a Nurse in Japan. She is also part of a board that is looking into cutting the cost of National Health Care which is bankrupting the nation. Can you uess where they're looking to and consulting with?:

America.

My ex says that since people can come in anytime they want and for just about any minor ailment they have they get many people who just come in because they are lonely and need someone to talk to. There's nothing wrong with them.

Sidebar: My ex used to come home all the time with crazy stories about people she had cared for in the Hospital. One guy used to come in at least once a month because his anus was bleeding. When asked by the Doctors what he was doing that was causing this he finally replied that he was jamming chop sticks up his ass! Not the shiny laquered ones but the disposable plain wooden ones. Apparently they were splintering and causing the damage!

I knew you guys would like that one!

it is NOT bankrupting their nation?

the people pay for their own health insurance, splitting it with employers and the policy is much less than half the price of ours for a family...everyone is REQUIRED to buy it, those who can't afford it are helped. there are absolutely no restrictions, all the healthcare anyone wants, can see any doctor or specialist in any and every hospital...they visit the doctor 3 times more a year than we do on average in the usa... no limits on any medical diagnostics or hospital care either and only 1 day at most, wait times.

they have private non profit insurance companies for all.

the problem with their system is the reimbursement rate is TOO LOW for the private hospitals (50% hurting financially) and private doctor's businesses...which is regulated by their gvt and which can be also be corrected.

Japanese Pay Less for More Health Care : NPR

Can I ask what is wrong with HR 3400 why the need to take over the private sector with the public option?

 

[Chris]

This is the type of information that should be out there and then let people come up with their own opinion based on truth.

That and the truth that healthcare corporations donated $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS to Congress in the last decade.

Obama is trying to take back the system for the people, but the Republicans, the Blue Dog Democrats, and the right wing media is trying to keep it in the hands of the greedheads.

Yep just like his deal with Big Pharm...

So now Obama is too right wing for you?

Who knew you were a progressive?

 

[jreeves]

That and the truth that healthcare corporations donated $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS to Congress in the last decade.

Obama is trying to take back the system for the people, but the Republicans, the Blue Dog Democrats, and the right wing media is trying to keep it in the hands of the greedheads.

Yep just like his deal with Big Pharm...

So now Obama is too right wing for you?

Who knew you were a progressive?

Hmm...I guess if you call selling out constituents for an egotistical purpose, right wing then yes he is.

 

[Care4all]

My ex-wife is a Nurse in Japan. She is also part of a board that is looking into cutting the cost of National Health Care which is bankrupting the nation. Can you uess where they're looking to and consulting with?:

America.

My ex says that since people can come in anytime they want and for just about any minor ailment they have they get many people who just come in because they are lonely and need someone to talk to. There's nothing wrong with them.

Sidebar: My ex used to come home all the time with crazy stories about people she had cared for in the Hospital. One guy used to come in at least once a month because his anus was bleeding. When asked by the Doctors what he was doing that was causing this he finally replied that he was jamming chop sticks up his ass! Not the shiny laquered ones but the disposable plain wooden ones. Apparently they were splintering and causing the damage!

I knew you guys would like that one!

it is NOT bankrupting their nation?

the people pay for their own health insurance, splitting it with employers and the policy is much less than half the price of ours for a family...everyone is REQUIRED to buy it, those who can't afford it are helped. there are absolutely no restrictions, all the healthcare anyone wants, can see any doctor or specialist in any and every hospital...they visit the doctor 3 times more a year than we do on average in the usa... no limits on any medical diagnostics or hospital care either and only 1 day at most, wait times.

they have private non profit insurance companies for all.

the problem with their system is the reimbursement rate is TOO LOW for the private hospitals (50% hurting financially) and private doctor's businesses...which is regulated by their gvt and which can be also be corrected.

Japanese Pay Less for More Health Care : NPR

Can I ask what is wrong with HR 3400 why the need to take over the private sector with the public option?

i think the for profit insurance companies are in cahoots together in price fixing...

i think handing the insurance companies an additional 20-45 million customers by making insurance mandatory as this bill, does nothing but hand a gold lined gift horse to the private insurance companies without ever having to compete to get them...this will keep costs higher, not lower them as it would if these companies really had to compete to get them vs it mandatory that the insurance company gets them as customers.

i think this reform is not forcing anyone in to the public option, i read the bill regarding such...the public option and or a non profit coop would bring true competition and choice for the consumer buying their mandatory insurance....otherwise, this bill without at least 1 of these options, is a sham, and gifthorse to a private industry, as said....and imo.

care