5 Founding Fathers' Skepticism About Christianity Would Make Them Unelectable Today

[Katzndogz]

We are moving (and quite close) to a state religion that all must practice, at least in public. It's the relgion of atheism and secular humanism (the military is already mandated to have atheist chaplains so the argument that it isn't really a religion has failed). Already right now, the great movement is to have only a secular humanist as president and Christians are somehow to be barred. Already the steps are being taken that the President is THE embodiment of secular belief and the president IS the country instead of representing the country. The only thing we are missing, and quite close to that, is that dissent and opposition to the president is treason. It's just talk now. Just a tantrum in liberal circles that anyone who opposes the president is unpatriotic, anti American and doesn't like America. When we get to the point where opposing obama is subject to formal charges of treason we will have reached the Divine Right of Kings to Rule.

Remind libs of that when they want Rush Limbaugh Sean Hannity or John Boehner arrested for treason, or at least their treasonous statements silenced.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Katzndoz has every right to nutter, but giving evidence, substantial evidence instead of nuttering, would be good.

 

[Cammmpbell]

In Washington's case, yes, but not because of the language, which could be used easily by a deist. Witness Thomas Jefferson's use of language when describing God and His creation.

They all believed in God, and that it was God who helped them win the Revolutionary War.
Thomas Jefferson believed, he did not believe in the miracles that were written in the bible.
But they all believed and had dependence upon God.

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever." - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781 Thomas Jefferson.

No disagreement: either a Christian god, or a deistic god, or Franklin's ever-changing demi-urges. He was a strange one but seemingly very tolerant of different belief systems.

Their religion was more like the American Indian's great spirit. Very impersonal and none of them believed some ancient god put a hand in anything. Winning a war is so rediculous I won't even address it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cammmpbell, can you comprehend basic composition?

Nothing you have concluded, based on the postings above, makes sense.

 

[Katzndogz]

Katzndoz has every right to nutter, but giving evidence, substantial evidence instead of nuttering, would be good.

Why don't you google "republicans treason" then let us know what you have found.

I found a few hundred entries.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Katzndoz has every right to nutter, but giving evidence, substantial evidence instead of nuttering, would be good.

Why don't you google "republicans treason" then let us know what you have found. I found a few hundred entries.

Why don't you make a substantial case, or are you going to continue to nutter?

 

[daveman]

We must keep the atheists at bay as much as the far right religionists. The Founders would approve of neither wing, I think.

...or we could just let people believe what they want to believe, which is what the FF intended.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Cammmpbell, can you comprehend basic composition?

Nothing you have concluded, based on the postings above, makes sense.

OK......I just have a high school education. Maybe that's it

I will mention that two of my three kids have masters degrees and the one who doesn't is a project director for the DOE making six figures.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We must keep the atheists at bay as much as the far right religionists. The Founders would approve of neither wing, I think.

...or we could just let people believe what they want to believe, which is what the FF intended.

I agree with you on that, in that they did not want a national church and eventually eliminated the state churches.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cammmpbell, can you comprehend basic composition?

Nothing you have concluded, based on the postings above, makes sense.

OK......I just have a high school education. Maybe that's it

I will mention that two of my three kids have masters degrees and the one who doesn't is a project director for the DOE making six figures.

Sounds like your kids have a healthy respect for education, but that means nothing here.

Many high school grads write quite well here. You are not making your point. If I offended, let me apologize.

Let's assume the mistake is mine.

Please rephrase so that I can understand what you mean.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Cammmpbell, can you comprehend basic composition?

Nothing you have concluded, based on the postings above, makes sense.

OK......I just have a high school education. Maybe that's it

I will mention that two of my three kids have masters degrees and the one who doesn't is a project director for the DOE making six figures.

Sounds like your kids have a healthy respect for education, but that means nothing here.

Many high school grads write quite well here. You are not making your point. If I offended, let me apologize.

Let's assume the mistake is mine.

Please rephrase so that I can understand what you mean.

Get Screwed

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cammmpbell: Their religion was more like the American Indian's great spirit. Very impersonal and none of them believed some ancient god put a hand in anything. Winning a war is so rediculous I won't even address it

OK, I have to figure out what you mean. I understand you to mean above that you think the Founders' religion "was more like the American Indian's great spirit."

No, the Founders believed in Christianity or deism, and only Ethan Allan and perhaps Tom Paine believed in an impersonal god. Both Franklin and Jefferson's heterodox beliefs were infused with Christian charity and morals.

All of the Founders who called on God during the Revolution called on God to help them in their struggle against the British.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Cammmpbell: Their religion was more like the American Indian's great spirit. Very impersonal and none of them believed some ancient god put a hand in anything. Winning a war is so rediculous I won't even address it

OK, I have to figure out what you mean. I understand you to mean above that you think the Founders' religion "was more like the American Indian's great spirit."

No, the Founders believed in Christianity or deism, and only Ethan Allan and perhaps Tom Paine believed in an impersonal god. Both Franklin and Jefferson's heterodox beliefs were infused with Christian charity and morals.

All of the Founders who called on God during the Revolution called on God to help them in their struggle against the British.

Washington seldom attended any church and Paine, Jefferson,Adams and Madison spoke openly about the absurdity of the Christian bible. Why wouldn't they.......the early settlers left Europe for one reason..........a corrupt government and church in bed with one another. It took Christians a few hundred years but slowly and surely they lobbied their way back into a situation where they had that superstitious nonsense in schools every day. Don't try to bullschit me about it.....when I was in grammar school they spent hours every week brainwashing 6-12 year olds. There was no "Under God" in the pledge and no "In God We Trust" on the currency. We've got the schools thing straigntened out and now it's time to get some other things done. Try teaching that stone age bullschit to school children today and see where it gets you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cammmpbell, that is not history you are taking about. Your predetermined ignorance is unacceptable to thinking, aware Americans. The following book will help you clear up your misconceptions.

Founding Faith: How Our Founding Fathers Forged a Radical New Approach to Religious Liberty [Paperback] Steven Waldman [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Founding-Faith-Fathers-Approach-Religious/dp/0812974743/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326632144&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Founding Faith: How Our Founding Fathers Forged a Radical New Approach to Religious Liberty (9780812974744): Steven Waldman: Books[/ame]

 

[Cammmpbell]

Cammmpbell, that is not history you are taking about. Your predetermined ignorance is unacceptable to thinking, aware Americans. The following book will help you clear up your misconceptions.

Founding Faith: How Our Founding Fathers Forged a Radical New Approach to Religious Liberty [Paperback] Steven Waldman Amazon.com: Founding Faith: How Our Founding Fathers Forged a Radical New Approach to Religious Liberty (9780812974744): Steven Waldman: Books

My mind's made up. I began reading about history and religion when I was in my mid teens. That was sixty years ago. The founding fathers had no kind of intentions to promote the Christian religion. Anybody who tries to make that case is going to lose an argument. If they had been practicing Christians they would have been required by the scriptures to afirm their faith, shout it from the rooftops...spread the good word, etc. etc.

Throughout the history of the Christian religion every time a deist or an atheist dies the Christians immediately start some bullschit story about them recanting on their death bed. Very unlikely. When I go everyone who knows me will know that to be impossible.

I've been to no less than 100 Christian funerals during my 65 adult years. Not once did a preacher or preachers fail to say the deceased was in heaven, with the lord, with the angels, passed through the pearly gates, etc. How the phuck would an ignorant preacher have any knowledge about where a dead person is. It's the most absurd and rediculous assertion I've ever heard in my life. Everybody dies and nobody knows a goddam thing after they draw their final breath. That's the problem with stone age bullschit. There's no proof of it. Just a lot of gibberish made up by ignorant primitives whom knew nothing about the workings of the universe and little about anything else except maybe goat herding.

 

[peach174]

Well Cammmpbell, who knows better that Washington's adopted daughter,Nelly Parke Custis?

Here is a letter that she wrote to Jared Sparks who inquired about his Christian faith.
Jared Sparks did a compilation of Washington's writings, a 12 volume set. Published in the 1830's.

Woodlawn, 26 February, 1833

Sir,

I received your favor of the 20th instant last evening, and hasten to give you the information, which you desire.

Truro Parish [Episcopal] is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother...

He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].

My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.

He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven].

Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

With sentiments of esteem,

I am, Nelly Custis-Lewis

 

[peach174]

Mr. Robert Lewis who was Washington's nephew and was his private secretary during the first part of Washington's Presidency who also knew him well.
Mr. Lewis lived with him on terms of intimacy, and had the best opportunity for observing his habits.

Mr. Lewis said that he had accidentally witnessed his private devotions in his library both morning and evening; that on those occasions he had seen him in a kneeling posture with a Bible open before him, and that he believed such to have been his daily practice.'”
So we have proof by his adopted daughter and nephew that George Washington was a very devoted Christian.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Mr. Robert Lewis who was Washington's nephew and was his private secretary during the first part of Washington's Presidency who also knew him well.
Mr. Lewis lived with him on terms of intimacy, and had the best opportunity for observing his habits.

Mr. Lewis said that he had accidentally witnessed his private devotions in his library both morning and evening; that on those occasions he had seen him in a kneeling posture with a Bible open before him, and that he believed such to have been his daily practice.'”
So we have proof by his adopted daughter and nephew that George Washington was a very devoted Christian.

LMAO!! He also couldn't tell a lie.....admitted cutting down a cherry tree. Ama ing how the do gooder Christians will lie at the drop of a hat if it's to protect their 2000 year old fairy tale.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Rev 21:8

 

[daveman]

Mr. Robert Lewis who was Washington's nephew and was his private secretary during the first part of Washington's Presidency who also knew him well.
Mr. Lewis lived with him on terms of intimacy, and had the best opportunity for observing his habits.

Mr. Lewis said that he had accidentally witnessed his private devotions in his library both morning and evening; that on those occasions he had seen him in a kneeling posture with a Bible open before him, and that he believed such to have been his daily practice.'”
So we have proof by his adopted daughter and nephew that George Washington was a very devoted Christian.

LMAO!! He also couldn't tell a lie.....admitted cutting down a cherry tree. Ama ing how the do gooder Christians will lie at the drop of a hat if it's to protect their 2000 year old fairy tale.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Rev 21:8

What is your proof they're lying? NOTE: Your childish butthurt is not proof.

 

[peach174]

Mr. Robert Lewis who was Washington's nephew and was his private secretary during the first part of Washington's Presidency who also knew him well.
Mr. Lewis lived with him on terms of intimacy, and had the best opportunity for observing his habits.

Mr. Lewis said that he had accidentally witnessed his private devotions in his library both morning and evening; that on those occasions he had seen him in a kneeling posture with a Bible open before him, and that he believed such to have been his daily practice.'”
So we have proof by his adopted daughter and nephew that George Washington was a very devoted Christian.

LMAO!! He also couldn't tell a lie.....admitted cutting down a cherry tree. Ama ing how the do gooder Christians will lie at the drop of a hat if it's to protect their 2000 year old fairy tale.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Rev 21:8

There is a big difference between myths and facts.
So what you are saying is the Washington's adopted daughter and his nephew were liar's.
I find that amazing, that you think that, in order to keep your uneducated view's.
You obviously have never read any of Washington's letter's, works or correspondences.
How about reading some of them and then make your judgment.