46 Senators Voted to Cede Our 2nd Amendment Rights to UN

[BlindBoo]

Now one more freaking time. The statement of intent is brutally clear.

Now what's the first part of the statement of intent?

To uphold Second Amendment rights

And most of the Democrats voted against this. And now the vote is on record.


I don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks is in the Global Arms Treaty or not.

and prevent the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty.

You can't seperate the two.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Please show how this will keep guns out of your hands

Please be clear on how you imagine that it can't be used and abused to go after the gun manufacturers in a way that might entail shutting them down eventually.

I mean, that is your contention. Right?

There's just NO prospect that ANYTHING in the "treaty" (if we were to ratify it) could EVER be put to such use. Right?

All this second amendment posturing and I still don't see any direct correlation which will reduce the 300 million guns now in circulation or prevent you from buying a gun

It does more to keep AK-47s out of the hands of Somali War Lords than to prevent Americans from buying guns

You keep quibbling. It's cool. I understand why.

I don't believe I ever posited any "direct correlation" that the 300 million guns now allegedly in circulation would be reduced.

But if the "treaty" were to get ratified, and thus able to be used in some whack-a-doo lawsuits against the gun manufacturers, that could certainly impact the ongoing ability of Americans to purchase arms.

And as is the case with almost all UN treaties, it won't ultimately do shit to prevent what it is designed (in words) to prevent.

 

[BlindBoo]

On the bright side, the treasonous bastards are on record now.

Although I was not surprised when I read the list, nonetheless it is startling to witness members of the Senate all the D's vote against the Second Amendment.

Un freaking real.

Nope, there was no vote for or against the Second Amendment.

To vote to grant that treaty any recognition one is required to vote against the 2nd Amendment.

Utterly not true. There is no constitutional right protected by the Second Amendment for an individual citizen to engage in international arms sales. None whatsoever.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Nope, there was no vote for or against the Second Amendment.

To vote to grant that treaty any recognition one is required to vote against the 2nd Amendment.

Utterly not true. There is no constitutional right protected by the Second Amendment for an individual citizen to engage in international arms sales. None whatsoever.

False. I never said or suggested or implied any such "right."

What I HAVE said is that the treaty could be used (if ever ratified) to go after arms manufacturers. This could thus be an inroad into the 2nd Amendment.

And there's no need for it. Vote for the Amendment to the budget in order to prevent the United States from "ratifying" that bullshit UN Treaty. Otherwise, you are voting against the Second Amendment, whether you like that fact or not.

Care to know WHY what I just said is true?

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Article 2
Scope
1. This Treaty shall apply to all conventional arms within the following
categories:
(a) Battle tanks;
(b) Armoured combat vehicles;
(c) Large-calibre artillery systems;
(d) Combat aircraft;
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(e) Attack helicopters;
(f) Warships;
(g) Missiles and missile launchers; and
(h) Small arms and light weapons.

2. For the purposes of this Treaty, the activities of the international trade comprise export, import, transit, trans-shipment and brokering, hereafter referred to as “transfer”.

3. This Treaty shall not apply to the international movement of conventional arms by, or on behalf of, a State Party for its use provided that the conventional arms remain under that State Party’s ownership.

Article 3
Ammunition/Munitions
Each State Party shall establish and maintain a national control system to regulate the export of ammunition/munitions fired, launched or delivered by the conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1), and shall apply the provisions of Article 6 and Article 7 prior to authorizing the export of such
ammunition/munitions.

Article 4
Parts and Components
Each State Party shall establish and maintain a national control system to regulate the export of parts and components where the export is in a form that provides the capability to assemble the conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) and shall apply the provisions of Article 6 and Article 7 prior to authorizing the export of such parts and components.

Article 5
General Implementation
1. Each State Party shall implement this Treaty in a consistent, objective and non-discriminatory manner, bearing in mind the principles referred to in this Treaty.

2. Each State Party shall establish and maintain a national control system, including a national control list, in order to implement the provisions of this Treaty.

3. Each State Party is encouraged to apply the provisions of this Treaty to the broadest range of conventional arms.
National definitions of any of the categories covered under Article 2 (1) (a)-(g) shall not cover less than the descriptions used in the United Nations Register of Conventional
Arms at the time of entry into force of this Treaty. For the category covered under Article 2 (1) (h), national definitions
shall not cover less than the descriptions used in relevant United Nations instruments at the time of entry into force of this Treaty.

4. Each State Party, pursuant to its national laws, shall provide its national control list to the Secretariat, which shall make it available to other States Parties. States Parties are encouraged to make their control lists publicly available.
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5. Each State Party shall take measures necessary to implement the provisions of this Treaty and shall designate competent national authorities in order to have an
effective and transparent national control system regulating the transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2
(1) and of items covered under Article 3 and Article 4.

6. Each State Party shall designate one or more national points of contact to exchange information on matters related to
the implementation of this Treaty. Each State Party shall notify the Secretariat, established under Article 18, of its national
point(s) of contact and keep the information updated.

Article 6
Prohibitions
1. A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if the transfer
would violate its obligations under measures adopted by the United Nations Security Council acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, in particular arms embargoes.

2. A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if the transfer would violate its relevant international obligations under international agreements to which it is a Party, in particular those re
lating to the transfer of, or illicit trafficking
in, conventional arms.

3. A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if it has knowledge at the time of authorization that the arms or items would be used in the commission of genocide, crimes against humanity, grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, attacks directed against civilian objects or civilians protected as such, or other war crimes as defined by international agreements to which it is a Party.

Article 7
Export and Export Assessment
1. If the export is not prohibited under Article 6, each exporting State Party, prior to authorization of the export of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of
items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, under its jurisdiction and pursuant to its national control system, shall, in an objective and non-discriminatory manner, taking into account relevant factors, including information provided by the
importing State in accordance with Article 8 (1), assess the potential that the conventional arms or items:
(a) would contribute to or undermine peace and security;
(b) could be used to:
(i) commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law;
(ii) commit or facilitate a serious violation of international human rights law;
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(iii) commit or facilitate an act constituting an offence under international conventions or protocols relating to terrorism to which the exporting State is a Party; or
(iv) commit or facilitate an act constituting an offence under international conventions or protocols relating to transnational organized crime to which the exporting State is a Party.

2. The exporting State Party shall also consider whether there are measures that could be undertaken to mitigate risks identified in (a) or (b) in paragraph 1, such as
confidence-building measures or jointly developed and agreed programmes by the exporting and importing States.

3. If, after conducting this assessment and considering available mitigating measures, the exporting State Party determines that there is an overriding risk of any of the negative consequences in paragraph 1, the exporting State Party shall not authorize the export.

4. The exporting State Party, in making this assessment, shall take into account the risk of the conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of the items covered under Article 3 or Article 4 being used to commit or facilitate serious acts of gender-based violence or serious acts of violence against women and children.

5. Each exporting State Party shall take measures to ensure that all authorizations for the export of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4 are detailed and issued prior to the export.

6. Each exporting State Party shall make available appropriate information about the authorization in question, upon request, to the importing State Party and to the transit or trans-shipment States Parties, subject to its national laws, practices or policies.

7. If, after an authorization has been granted, an exporting State Party becomes aware of new relevant information, it is encouraged to reassess the authorization after consultations, if appropriate, with the importing State.

Article 8
Import
1. Each importing State Party shall take measures to ensure that appropriate and relevant information is provided, upon request, pursuant to its national laws, to the exporting State Party, to assist the exporting State Party in conducting its national export assessment under Article 7. Such measures may include end use or end user documentation.

2. Each importing State Party shall take measures that will allow it to regulate, where necessary, imports under its jurisdiction of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1). Such measures may include import systems.

3. Each importing State Party may request information from the exporting State Party concerning any pending or actual export authorizations where the importing State Party is the country of final destination.
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Article 9
Transit or trans-shipment Each State Party shall take appropriate measures to regulate, where necessary and feasible, the transit or trans-shipment under its jurisdiction of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) through its territory in accordance with relevant international law.

Article 10
Brokering
Each State Party shall take measures, pursuant to its national laws, to regulate brokering taking place under its jurisdiction for conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1). Such measures may include requiring brokers to register or obtain
written authorization before engaging in brokering.

Article 11
Diversion
1. Each State Party involved in the transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) shall take measures to prevent their diversion.

2. The exporting State Party shall seek to prevent the diversion of the transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) through its national control system, established in accordance with Article 5 (2), by assessing the risk of diversion of the export and considering the establishment of mitigation measures such as confidence-building measures or jointly
developed and agreed programmes by the exporting and importing States. Other prevention measures may include, where appropriate: examining parties involved in the export, requiring additional documentation, certificates, assurances, not authorizing the export or other appropriate measures.

3. Importing, transit, trans-shipment and exporting States Parties shall cooperate and exchange information, pursuant to their national laws, where appropriate and feasible, in order to mitigate the risk of diversion of the transfer of conventional
arms covered under Article 2 (1).

4. If a State Party detects a diversion of transferred conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1), the State Party shall take appropriate measures, pursuant to its national laws and in accordance with international law, to address such diversion. Such measures may include alerting potentially affected States Parties, examining diverted shipments of such conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1), and taking follow-up measures through investigation and law enforcement.

5. In order to better comprehend and prevent the diversion of transferred conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1), States Parties are encouraged to share relevant information with one another on effective measures to address diversion. Such information may include information on illicit activities including corruption, international trafficking routes, illicit brokers, sources of illicit supply, methods of concealment, common points of dispatch, or destinations used by
organized groups engaged in diversion.
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6. States Parties are encouraged to report to other States Parties, through the Secretariat, on measures taken in
addressing the diversion of transferred conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1).

Article 12
Record keeping
1. Each State Party shall maintain national records, pursuant to its national laws and regulations, of its issuance of export
authorizations or its actual exports of the
conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1).

2. Each State Party is encouraged to maintain records of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) that are transferred to its territory as the final destination
or that are authorized to transit or trans-ship territory u
nder its jurisdiction.

3. Each State Party is encouraged to include in those records: the quantity, value, model/type, authorized international
transfers of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1), conventional arms actually transferred, details of exporting State(s), importing State(s), transit and trans-shipment
State(s), and end users, as appropriate.

4. Records shall be kept for a minimum of ten years.

Article 13
Reporting
1. Each State Party shall, within the first year after entry into force of this Treaty for that State Party, in accordance with
Article 22, provide an initial report to the Secretariat of measures undertaken in order to implement this Treaty, including national laws, national control lists and other regulations and administrative
measures. Each State Party shall report to the Secretariat on any new measures undertaken in order to implement this Treaty, when appropriate. Reports shall be
made available, and distributed to States Parties by the Secretariat.

2. States Parties are encouraged to report to other States Parties, through the Secretariat, information on measures taken that have been proven effective in addressing the diversion of transferred conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1).

3. Each State Party shall submit annually to the Secretariat by 31 May a report for the preceding calendar year concerning
authorized or actual exports and imports of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1). Reports shall be made available,
and distributed to States Parties by the Secretariat. The report submitted to the Secretariat may contain the same information submitted by the State Party to relevant United Nations frameworks, including the United Nations Register of
Conventional Arms. Reports may exclude commercially sensitive or national security information.

Article 14
Enforcement
Each State Party shall take appropriate measures to enforce national laws and regulations that implement the provisions of this Treaty.
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Article 15
International Cooperation
1. States Parties shall cooperate with each other, consistent with their respective security interests and national laws, to effectively implement this Treaty.

2. States Parties are encouraged to facilitate international cooperation, including exchanging information on matters of mutual interest regarding the implementation and application of this Treaty pursuant to their respective security interests and
national laws.

3. States Parties are encouraged to consult on matters of mutual interest and to share information, as appropriate, to su
pport the implementation of this Treaty.

4. States Parties are encouraged to cooperate, pursuant to their national laws, in order to assist national implementation of the provisions of this Treaty, including through sharing information regarding illicit activities and actors and in order to
prevent and eradicate diversion of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1).

5. States Parties shall, where jointly agreed and consistent with their national laws, afford one another the widest measure of assistance in investigations, prosecutions and judicial proceedings in relation to violations of national measures established pursuant to this Treaty.

6. States Parties are encouraged to take national measures and to cooperate with each other to prevent the transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) becoming subject to corrupt practices.

7. States Parties are encouraged to exchange experience and information on lessons learned in relation to any aspect of this Treaty.

Article 16
International Assistance
1. In implementing this Treaty, each State Party may seek assistance including legal or legislative assistance, institutional
capacity-building, and technical, material or financial assistance. Such assistance may include stockpile management,
disarmament, demobilization and reintegration programmes, mode l legislation, and effective practices for implementation. Each State Party in a position to do so shall provide such assistance, upon request.

2. Each State Party may request, offer or receive assistance through, inter alia, the United Nations, international, region
al, subregional or national organizations, non-governmental organizations, or on a bilateral basis.

3. A voluntary trust fund shall be established by States Parties to assist requesting States Parties requiring international assistance to implement this Treaty. Each State Party is encouraged to contribute resources to the fund.

EXCERPTED from the fucking treaty as set forth here: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/2013/ArmsTreaty.pdf?ref=world

Now, I have not highlighted all of the provisions that are likely to lead to the very efforts to "use" this treaty to go after gun manufacturers. But it is plain enough already to see SOME of the concerns.

The lists which are referenced sound an awful lot like gun registration imposed by "treaty" and conforming legislation DESPITE the 2nd Amendment.

Enforcement seems to include the prospect of lawsuits.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Consider this in conjunction with the foregoing post:

For example, the most recent draft treaty includes import/export controls that would require officials in an importing country to collect information on the "end user" of a firearm, keep the information for 20 years, and provide the information to the country from which the gun was exported. In other words, if you bought a Beretta shotgun, you would be an "end user" and the U.S. government would have to keep a record of you and notify the Italian government about your purchase. That is gun registration. If the U.S. refuses to implement this data collection on law-abiding American gun owners, other nations might be required to ban the export of firearms to the U.S.

-- NRA-ILA | Disinformation Continues as U.N. Arms Treaty Takes Shape

 

[BlindBoo]

To vote to grant that treaty any recognition one is required to vote against the 2nd Amendment.

Utterly not true. There is no constitutional right protected by the Second Amendment for an individual citizen to engage in international arms sales. None whatsoever.

False. I never said or suggested or implied any such "right."

What I HAVE said is that the treaty could be used (if ever ratified) to go after arms manufacturers. This could thus be an inroad into the 2nd Amendment.

And there's no need for it. Vote for the Amendment to the budget in order to prevent the United States from "ratifying" that bullshit UN Treaty. Otherwise, you are voting against the Second Amendment, whether you like that fact or not.

Care to know WHY what I just said is true?

The treaty deals with regulating international arms sales and curbing illegal international sales. The Second amendment protects US citizens right to keep and bear arms. A vote for the treaty is not a vote against the 2nd. Even if a US manufacturer was caught selling illegally the UN would have no part in the prosecution of the company as it is up to individual memeber states to enforce the treaty.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Utterly not true. There is no constitutional right protected by the Second Amendment for an individual citizen to engage in international arms sales. None whatsoever.

False. I never said or suggested or implied any such "right."

What I HAVE said is that the treaty could be used (if ever ratified) to go after arms manufacturers. This could thus be an inroad into the 2nd Amendment.

And there's no need for it. Vote for the Amendment to the budget in order to prevent the United States from "ratifying" that bullshit UN Treaty. Otherwise, you are voting against the Second Amendment, whether you like that fact or not.

Care to know WHY what I just said is true?

The treaty deals with regulating international arms sales and curbing illegal international sales. The Second amendment protects US citizens right to keep and bear arms. A vote for the treaty is not a vote against the 2nd. Even if a US manufacturer was caught selling illegally the UN would have no part in the prosecution of the company as it is up to individual memeber states to enforce the treaty.

We KNOW what the "treaty" nominally "deals with."

That is not now nor was it ever the question, booboo.

The questions are entirely concerned with the USES to which the treaty can be put and the almost (but not quite) incidental problems of implementing the terms of the treaty.

 

[BlindBoo]

False. I never said or suggested or implied any such "right."

What I HAVE said is that the treaty could be used (if ever ratified) to go after arms manufacturers. This could thus be an inroad into the 2nd Amendment.

And there's no need for it. Vote for the Amendment to the budget in order to prevent the United States from "ratifying" that bullshit UN Treaty. Otherwise, you are voting against the Second Amendment, whether you like that fact or not.

Care to know WHY what I just said is true?

The treaty deals with regulating international arms sales and curbing illegal international sales. The Second amendment protects US citizens right to keep and bear arms. A vote for the treaty is not a vote against the 2nd. Even if a US manufacturer was caught selling illegally the UN would have no part in the prosecution of the company as it is up to individual memeber states to enforce the treaty.

We KNOW what the "treaty" nominally "deals with."

That is not now nor was it ever the question, booboo.

The questions are entirely concerned with the USES to which the treaty can be put and the almost (but not quite) incidental problems of implementing the terms of the treaty.

The question is if the treaty would cede our 2nd amendment rights to the UN. It will not.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

The treaty deals with regulating international arms sales and curbing illegal international sales. The Second amendment protects US citizens right to keep and bear arms. A vote for the treaty is not a vote against the 2nd. Even if a US manufacturer was caught selling illegally the UN would have no part in the prosecution of the company as it is up to individual memeber states to enforce the treaty.

We KNOW what the "treaty" nominally "deals with."

That is not now nor was it ever the question, booboo.

The questions are entirely concerned with the USES to which the treaty can be put and the almost (but not quite) incidental problems of implementing the terms of the treaty.

The question is if the treaty would cede our 2nd amendment rights to the UN. It will not.

No. That is not the question.

The question is whether the treaty (if ratified) could (by its own terms) be put to a use that violates our Second Amendment. And the correct answer to that correct question is:

absolutely it could.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

i can't believe 46 democrats wanted to cede our constitutional rights

they should be impeached and removed from office immediately

Please site the constitutional right for individual citizens to engage in international arms sales, because that's all the treaty will try and regulate.

UN General Assembly adopts arms trade treaty

According to the UN Office for Disarmament Affairs, the treaty will not do any of the following: interfere with domestic arms commerce, ban the export of any type of weapon, harm the legitimate right to self-defence or undermine national arms regulations.

Many observers have expressed skepticism over the treaty before the vote. Even if adopted, it is unlikely to prove effective, they said, as major arms traders, including the US and Russia, have no interest in reducing weapons sales.

There are a number of small arms that are the basis of American citizens purchases that are part of the international arms sales
Glock Saiga Ruger too name just a few.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Today, 46 traitors were so intent on advancing their anti-gun agenda, they voted to forfeit OUR 2nd Amendment Rights to the UN. Check out the link to see who was willing to put their own agenda above our rights.

U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

All Democrats. Imagine that.

 

[BlindBoo]

i can't believe 46 democrats wanted to cede our constitutional rights

they should be impeached and removed from office immediately

Please site the constitutional right for individual citizens to engage in international arms sales, because that's all the treaty will try and regulate.

UN General Assembly adopts arms trade treaty

According to the UN Office for Disarmament Affairs, the treaty will not do any of the following: interfere with domestic arms commerce, ban the export of any type of weapon, harm the legitimate right to self-defence or undermine national arms regulations.

Many observers have expressed skepticism over the treaty before the vote. Even if adopted, it is unlikely to prove effective, they said, as major arms traders, including the US and Russia, have no interest in reducing weapons sales.

There are a number of small arms that are the basis of American citizens purchases that are part of the international arms sales
Glock Saiga Ruger too name just a few.

I don't see anything in the treaty that is going to stop legitimate importer/exporters or domestic sales in the US.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Please site the constitutional right for individual citizens to engage in international arms sales, because that's all the treaty will try and regulate.

UN General Assembly adopts arms trade treaty

According to the UN Office for Disarmament Affairs, the treaty will not do any of the following: interfere with domestic arms commerce, ban the export of any type of weapon, harm the legitimate right to self-defence or undermine national arms regulations.

Many observers have expressed skepticism over the treaty before the vote. Even if adopted, it is unlikely to prove effective, they said, as major arms traders, including the US and Russia, have no interest in reducing weapons sales.

There are a number of small arms that are the basis of American citizens purchases that are part of the international arms sales
Glock Saiga Ruger too name just a few.

I don't see anything in the treaty that is going to stop legitimate importer/exporters or domestic sales in the US.

That much is obvious.

 

[rightwinger]

There are a number of small arms that are the basis of American citizens purchases that are part of the international arms sales
Glock Saiga Ruger too name just a few.

I don't see anything in the treaty that is going to stop legitimate importer/exporters or domestic sales in the US.

That much is obvious.

Republicans need to keep up the flow of AK-47s and RPGs to Somalian war lords. Have to keep up the flow of weapons to terrorists

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Please site the constitutional right for individual citizens to engage in international arms sales, because that's all the treaty will try and regulate.

UN General Assembly adopts arms trade treaty

According to the UN Office for Disarmament Affairs, the treaty will not do any of the following: interfere with domestic arms commerce, ban the export of any type of weapon, harm the legitimate right to self-defence or undermine national arms regulations.

Many observers have expressed skepticism over the treaty before the vote. Even if adopted, it is unlikely to prove effective, they said, as major arms traders, including the US and Russia, have no interest in reducing weapons sales.

There are a number of small arms that are the basis of American citizens purchases that are part of the international arms sales
Glock Saiga Ruger too name just a few.

I don't see anything in the treaty that is going to stop legitimate importer/exporters or domestic sales in the US.

You don't see it? Your support of obama told me that long ago.

 

[FA_Q2]

Please site the constitutional right for individual citizens to engage in international arms sales, because that's all the treaty will try and regulate.

UN General Assembly adopts arms trade treaty

According to the UN Office for Disarmament Affairs, the treaty will not do any of the following: interfere with domestic arms commerce, ban the export of any type of weapon, harm the legitimate right to self-defence or undermine national arms regulations.

Many observers have expressed skepticism over the treaty before the vote. Even if adopted, it is unlikely to prove effective, they said, as major arms traders, including the US and Russia, have no interest in reducing weapons sales.

There are a number of small arms that are the basis of American citizens purchases that are part of the international arms sales
Glock Saiga Ruger too name just a few.

I don't see anything in the treaty that is going to stop legitimate importer/exporters or domestic sales in the US.

I don’t see anything in the treaty that stops illegitimate sales either tbh.

I asked earlier, and was ignored, what the actual effects of this treaty would be. As far as I can tell, all it does is track. What’s the point? We should vote it down, there are not actual effects.

 

[ogibillm]

To vote to grant that treaty any recognition one is required to vote against the 2nd Amendment.

Utterly not true. There is no constitutional right protected by the Second Amendment for an individual citizen to engage in international arms sales. None whatsoever.

False. I never said or suggested or implied any such "right."

What I HAVE said is that the treaty could be used (if ever ratified) to go after arms manufacturers. This could thus be an inroad into the 2nd Amendment.

And there's no need for it. Vote for the Amendment to the budget in order to prevent the United States from "ratifying" that bullshit UN Treaty. Otherwise, you are voting against the Second Amendment, whether you like that fact or not.

Care to know WHY what I just said is true?

can you explain how the treaty could be used to go after gun manufacturers?

i assume of course you aren't talking about manufacturers that sell to warlords.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Utterly not true. There is no constitutional right protected by the Second Amendment for an individual citizen to engage in international arms sales. None whatsoever.

False. I never said or suggested or implied any such "right."

What I HAVE said is that the treaty could be used (if ever ratified) to go after arms manufacturers. This could thus be an inroad into the 2nd Amendment.

And there's no need for it. Vote for the Amendment to the budget in order to prevent the United States from "ratifying" that bullshit UN Treaty. Otherwise, you are voting against the Second Amendment, whether you like that fact or not.

Care to know WHY what I just said is true?

can you explain how the treaty could be used to go after gun manufacturers?

i assume of course you aren't talking about manufacturers that sell to warlords.

Go back and re-read.

No. Not just what I already wrote. Read what I linked to.

That includes the treaty itself.

Educate yourself, lad.

 

[ogibillm]

False. I never said or suggested or implied any such "right."

What I HAVE said is that the treaty could be used (if ever ratified) to go after arms manufacturers. This could thus be an inroad into the 2nd Amendment.

And there's no need for it. Vote for the Amendment to the budget in order to prevent the United States from "ratifying" that bullshit UN Treaty. Otherwise, you are voting against the Second Amendment, whether you like that fact or not.

Care to know WHY what I just said is true?

can you explain how the treaty could be used to go after gun manufacturers?

i assume of course you aren't talking about manufacturers that sell to warlords.

Go back and re-read.

No. Not just what I already wrote. Read what I linked to.

That includes the treaty itself.

Educate yourself, lad.

i got it. i read the treaty. but if this is such an easy scenario to imagine i must be having an imagination failure.

so help me out. what's the scenario? you say it's a practical certainty - so how's it happen?