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That's just it: Hamas does want innocent civilians to die. That's not an excuse for Israel to simply mow them down, however.
That any war is inevitable is a lazy response, because they're not. It's only inevitable in the sense that politicians, especially politicians being armed and funded by the United States government, have little incentive to find an alternative path to peace.That's only partly true.
We enterd this current war because we had no other choice.
It was Netanyahoo's choice how to end it. He had no choice but to start it.
Civilian neighborhoods were targeted, thus civilians were targeted. Pretty simple.Now, all you have to do is to prove that civilians were being targeted and you're all set.There's no such thing as legitimate targeting of civilians.Israel has not been 'mowing down' innocent Gazan civilians.That's just it: Hamas does want innocent civilians to die. That's not an excuse for Israel to simply mow them down, however.If Hamas don't want innocent civilians to die, (which I very much doubt), then they shouldn't hide by them, because they are commiting war crimes by doing so.
Israel has been inflicting Gazan civilian casualties during the course of legitimate wartime targeting operations.
As things stand now, we're talking about civilians collateral casualties, while legitimate wartime (military) targeting was underway.
Maybe Israel needs to make some overtures to the Palestinians to make them want to throw out Hamas. As long as Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian areas and killing people it's just going to make more people sympathetic to Hamas.I want the Palestinians to grow up, turn their focus and energy on throwing out Hamas and the PLO and to start living like the rest of the civilized world. That means they throw out missles and other weapons used against Israel, provide proof of that, and then start to build their economy.So you want Palestinians to br disarmed and subjects of Israel DW?
I am quite confident that if Israel has proof that the threat against them is over, that Gaza will be opened for business with the world and Israel.
Simply lay down your arms and live in peace.
Oh, and btw...before you say it. Nowhere do I advocate that the Palestinians subjugate themselves to Israel. Only to stop attacking them.
When your actions kill innocent civilians they cease to be legitimate. If an officer fires into a crowd after a fleeing suspect is his action legitimate?There is nothing indiscriminate about it. They are deliberately targeting Hamas military assets and leaders. Legitimate actions in war.Maybe Israel needs to make some overtures to the Palestinians to make them want to throw out Hamas. As long as Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian areas and killing people it's just going to make more people sympathetic to Hamas.I want the Palestinians to grow up, turn their focus and energy on throwing out Hamas and the PLO and to start living like the rest of the civilized world. That means they throw out missles and other weapons used against Israel, provide proof of that, and then start to build their economy.So you want Palestinians to br disarmed and subjects of Israel DW?
I am quite confident that if Israel has proof that the threat against them is over, that Gaza will be opened for business with the world and Israel.
Simply lay down your arms and live in peace.
Oh, and btw...before you say it. Nowhere do I advocate that the Palestinians subjugate themselves to Israel. Only to stop attacking them.
Israel has made overtures to the Palestinian people. Get rid of Hamas and life gets better. As soon as Israel no longer feels threatened and no longer has to hide under a missile shield, then peace will reign.
Your policeman firing into a crowd scenario is a canard in this instance.No, according to my logic it would be criminal for you to hit my family, or my neighbors, assuming they're innocent of the crime for which I committed in your analogy. You completely ignore the analogy of the officer firing into a crowd because you have no answer for it. There's a reason police aren't supposed to fire into the crowd after fleeing suspects, and that's because they're not supposed to hurt innocent civilians in the hunt for a suspect.As I said before, that dog won't hunt....Now you're getting it: All of those men should have stood trial for their crimes against humanity. The fact that they didn't has nothing to do with whether they were right, but the fact that they won.
According to your logic... if you embed rocket launchers in your living room, then fire at me and my family, it would be criminal of me to fire back, because I might hit your family.
The Real World doesn't work like that.
Never has.
Never will.
Next slide, please.
Other than that, your so-called logic has you positioned just north of Never-Never Land.
It's simply not Real World thinking.
Automatic gainsay... did too, did not... am too, am not... is too, is not... is painful enough and pointless enough when dealing with Reality, but, when dealing with some kind of Alternate Universe in which such things might be operative, well, there's simply no profit in such an exchange.
Inflicting civilian casualties during the course of legitimate wartime targeting operations is both justifiable and defensible, regardless of the way in which you would like The Universe to operate.
So when a criminal runs into a crowd that crowd loses their legal protection and right to live, even though they had nothing to do with the criminal and likely had no idea what was going on in the first place?Nonsense.When your actions kill innocent civilians they cease to be legitimate. If an officer fires into a crowd after a fleeing suspect is his action legitimate?There is nothing indiscriminate about it. They are deliberately targeting Hamas military assets and leaders. Legitimate actions in war.Maybe Israel needs to make some overtures to the Palestinians to make them want to throw out Hamas. As long as Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian areas and killing people it's just going to make more people sympathetic to Hamas.I want the Palestinians to grow up, turn their focus and energy on throwing out Hamas and the PLO and to start living like the rest of the civilized world. That means they throw out missles and other weapons used against Israel, provide proof of that, and then start to build their economy.So you want Palestinians to br disarmed and subjects of Israel DW?
I am quite confident that if Israel has proof that the threat against them is over, that Gaza will be opened for business with the world and Israel.
Simply lay down your arms and live in peace.
Oh, and btw...before you say it. Nowhere do I advocate that the Palestinians subjugate themselves to Israel. Only to stop attacking them.
Israel has made overtures to the Palestinian people. Get rid of Hamas and life gets better. As soon as Israel no longer feels threatened and no longer has to hide under a missile shield, then peace will reign.
Civilians lose their legal protection when they are positioned too closely to war-assets.
Especially when they remain nearby such assets willingly and when their side is utilizing them to hide behind.
Shocking.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-mortar-attack-kills-4yearold-boy-in-israel-9686493.html
I suppose this is collateral damage, as all the other children who have been killed?
Not at all - the pro Israel, pro mass murder lot, assure us the dead are all Hamas fighters.
Clearly he age is a lie, and he was just a midget Hamas fighter, not a little child who just wanted to play with his toys.
Fuck the IDF.
Long live the IDF for doing an amazing job protecting Israel from Islamist scum and their supporters like Fred for the last 66 years!Shocking.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-mortar-attack-kills-4yearold-boy-in-israel-9686493.html
I suppose this is collateral damage, as all the other children who have been killed?
Not at all - the pro Israel, pro mass murder lot, assure us the dead are all Hamas fighters.
Clearly he age is a lie, and he was just a midget Hamas fighter, not a little child who just wanted to play with his toys.
Fuck the IDF.
What are the lyrics? Are they the same as "Tomorrow Belongs to Me"?
All praises and blessings on the IDF-
What are the lyrics? Are they the same as "Tomorrow Belongs to Me"?
They sing for the upcoming of the Messiah, that even though he delays on coming, they still wait for him.
According to Jewish belief, once the Messiah arrives, there will be no more war, the innocent victims will be resurrected and there will be no more hate.
There is no singing more divine than this.!
For starters, you have no idea what percentage of the innocent civilians were actually human shields, and your argument rests on the ridiculous assumption that the human shields for whatever reason volunteered to be human shields.Essentially, though theoretically it doesn't have to. Regardless, we don't get to redefine words simply because the State does them. Murdering innocent civilians becomes "collateral damage," yet it's still one group of people killing innocent people. Sorry, still murder.War = Murder?No, this is murder, just like every other innocent man, woman, and child that has been killed.Shocking.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-mortar-attack-kills-4yearold-boy-in-israel-9686493.html
I suppose this is collateral damage, as all the other children who have been killed?
Not if the "innocent" are actually acting as human shields, then it becomes a case of dead militia. They cant claim to be innocent once that take on the role of human shields.
yes there isWhat are the lyrics? Are they the same as "Tomorrow Belongs to Me"?
They sing for the upcoming of the Messiah, that even though he delays on coming, they still wait for him.
According to Jewish belief, once the Messiah arrives, there will be no more war, the innocent victims will be resurrected and there will be no more hate.
There is no singing more divine than this.!
Israel purposefully bombing entire neighborhoods or schools, with very little warning, sometimes as little as a half hour, says that they do not care if they kill innocent civilians. And, again, human shields are not generally voluntary, if ever.Given the fact that they've been purposefully targeting civilian infrastructure I would say it's pretty clear they have been doing just that. You can talk about Hamas using human shields if you want, but it doesn't excuse Israel for then simply choosing to mow down those human shields. Regardless of whether they've been deliberately targeting civilians, however, they have killed a large number of civilians, which at the very least amounts to manslaughter on a massive scale. Though once you reach the number of dead civilians that Israel has racked up I would say it clearly ceases to be manslaughter and turns into murder.Has Israel been killing civilians on a large scale merely for the sake of killing civilians?Essentially, though theoretically it doesn't have to. Regardless, we don't get to redefine words simply because the State does them. Murdering innocent civilians becomes "collateral damage," yet it's still one group of people killing innocent people. Sorry, still murder.War = Murder?No, this is murder, just like every other innocent man, woman, and child that has been killed.Shocking.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-mortar-attack-kills-4yearold-boy-in-israel-9686493.html
I suppose this is collateral damage, as all the other children who have been killed?
I think not.
That's the modus operandi of Hamas, however, and all the lipstick in the world isn't gonna dress-up that pig.
Why LIE when the truth is known, the targets are valid military targets under the terms of the Geneva conventions. Once hamas or their representatives placed rocket launchers in the midst of civilian buildings they became valid military targets. I would recommend that you read the whole of the Geneva conventions and see just what it says about using civilian areas to launch an attack, what happens to civilians once they agree to become human shields. Then see what they say about the warnings given to evacuate the area. It is murder but not by Israel, the blame lies at the feet of hamas for not taking every precaution to minimise the risk to the civilian population.
Finally if you look at the deaths you will find that the majority are males aged between 17 and 35 the age group that is also the one for hamas terrorists.
As for Hamas, they don't care about the Geneva Conventions, and it's in their interest to maximize civilian casualties in Israel's strikes for propaganda purposes. The Israeli government is just stupid enough to do exactly what Hamas wants them to do.
Never used the word genocide, your patronizing nonsense notwithstanding. Of course the civilians are being purposefully targeted: Israel is blowing up schools where civilians are known to be congregating, not to mention the entire civilian neighborhoods that have been destroyed. It should be clear that I do hold Hamas responsible for much of the bloodshed, but I realize that Hamas is purposefully putting Palestinian in harms way, as I've already said, because they want Israel to kill as many civilians as possible. So yes, Hamas may fire rockets from some schools, neighborhoods and what have you, because they want Israel to target these areas and kill civilians. That allows Hamas to use those deaths for propaganda and turn even more Palestinians against Israel. Of course that in no way justifies Israel simply mowing down civilians in the process.Targeting of infrastructure does not equate to (nor even reliably hint at) genocide. Sorry....Given the fact that they've been purposefully targeting civilian infrastructure I would say it's pretty clear they have been doing just that...
If you are shooting rockets at my family down the block, doing it from your own living room because you're banking on my reluctance to hurt your family, I am well within my rights (and you should not be surprised when I choose) to return fire - no doubt feeling badly about harming your family, but choosing my family's survival over yours. This is not a difficult concept to grasp....You can talk about Hamas using human shields if you want, but it doesn't excuse Israel for then simply choosing to mow down those human shields...
Ah, so now the case for 'murder of civilians' begins to weaken just a wee bit, eh?...Regardless of whether they've been deliberately targeting civilians, however, they have killed a large number of civilians...
Yes - you and I both new it was going to go this way, before we even began this sequence, didn't we?
The Israelis have, indeed, killed large numbers of civilians during the course of this latest Gaza War.
That is because Hamas war-assets are embedded within their civilian population centers.
Want the large-scale collateral civilian casualties to stop.
Move the war assets away from civilian population centers.
Or suffer continued high levels of civilian collateral casualties.
That is the choice of Hamas - not Israel.
Hardly....which at the very least amounts to manslaughter on a massive scale...
It amounts to collateral civilian casualties on a significant scale, incurred during legitimate wartime targeting operations.
The US Army Air Force and the Royal Air Force also inflicted civilian casualties on a significant scale during legitimate wartime targeting operations.
More emotionalism rather than logical and objective analysis....Though once you reach the number of dead civilians that Israel has racked up I would say it clearly ceases to be manslaughter and turns into murder.
You have yet to establish 'intentional targeting of civilians', never mind 'murder'.
The scale of the collateral civilian casualties inflicted upon Gazans is directly related to the number of war-assets and war-operations conducted by Hamas in close proximity to their own civilian population centers and to the numbers of civilians in close proximity to any given asset or operation at the time of a given fire-mission.
Much also depends upon the willingness of civilians to temporarily flee the area after receiving preliminary warnings from the Israeli Defense Force.
Murder? Not by any sane definition - legal or ethical or metaphorical - that I've ever encountered.
You used the analogy of me firing rockets at you from down the street, and I agree that you would then be within your rights to fire rockets back at me. But only me. My neighbors and the rest of the street had nothing to do with my firing rockets at you, and if you harm them to get at me then you are just as guilty of murder as I am.
As for using the term murder, of course it's murder. Just because the State doesn't define it as such doesn't change the fact. If you or I did what Israel or Hamas was doing there would be no question it's murder.
Zionists here are very concerned about putting up words against all the examples of Israeli crimes, atrocities, murders, massacres and ethnic cleansing.
But they are not really worried about the quality of the words, or thinking behind them. They just want to type something, very frequently with personal insults, or calls for more murder, or genocide and claims of illusory victories.
Thinking is not their strong suit. Nor is decency.
Zionists here are very concerned about putting up words against all the examples of Israeli crimes, atrocities, murders, massacres and ethnic cleansing.
But they are not really worried about the quality of the words, or thinking behind them. They just want to type something, very frequently with personal insults, or calls for more murder, or genocide and claims of illusory victories.
Thinking is not their strong suit. Nor is decency.
That have never been proven once by you or any other team Palestine member. The only crimes are those of the Palestinians, same with atrocities. One murder by a group of extremist " mafia type" Jews, no massacres and definitelty no ethnic cleansing
