$4 clunkers is total consumer fraud

[strollingbones]

you make me want to go buy a new car....

 

[Intense]

I'm still waiting for the other foot to drop, the tide change, the rip-tide, allot of manipulation and rubber numbers circulating around. Remember when the same crowd thats praising Hammurabi now, blasted Bush for 8 years on his unemployment rates. One mishap and this economy will sink further than we've seen yet.

 

[Jon]

you make me want to go buy a new car....

You know you can get a pretty inexpensive car that's pretty nice - Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Mazda 3, and many others. With $4500 down, you can get the payments at next to nothing.

 

[Intense]

you make me want to go buy a new car....

You know you can get a pretty inexpensive car that's pretty nice - Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Mazda 3, and many others. With $4500 down, you can get the payments at next to nothing.

Yeah right. And how long do you think it will be before many of will be up for repossession auctions? do you think we might get an even better deal then? Do you think the Dealerships would have been reimbursed by then? Do you think Hammurabi will need another trillion, to keep people in their cars? The Chains of Slavery are not next to nothing.

 

[Jon]

you make me want to go buy a new car....

You know you can get a pretty inexpensive car that's pretty nice - Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Mazda 3, and many others. With $4500 down, you can get the payments at next to nothing.

Yeah right. And how long do you think it will be before many of will be up for repossession auctions? do you think we might get an even better deal then? Do you think the Dealerships would have been reimbursed by then? Do you think Hammurabi will need another trillion, to keep people in their cars? The Chains of Slavery are not next to nothing.

You mistake me for someone who supports the bill. I think it's one of the dumbest thing we've ever done, along with the entire bailout. But as long as the government is giving free money, I sure as fucking hell am going to take it. It's the only time I get handouts, because I have a good job and am more than able to take care of myself. I don't get free food, health care, and shelter. I prefer to earn what I own.

I was simply pointing out that if strolling wants a new car, they are definitely affordable to people who are responsible.

 

[Care4all]

There is a difference between this and the housing bubble...the housing bubble, credit was a dime a dozen...even no assets, no job, no nothin' loans were issued to anybody and everybody...

This is not the case now, credit is tighter than ever and near impossible to get unless you have a good credit rating and job.

I saw on the news that Dealers feared this the most...that they would have a great promotion but not enough of the people trading in clunkers would be credit worthy. And that they were pleased that many of them were credit worthy and were able to qualify for the remaining balance loan.

The other thing I heard on c-span is that the dealers must SALVAGE the cars at a SALVAGE AUCTION for parts only, and get a receipt for such for each car before the government will rebate the Dealers.

This means that there WILL NOT be a SHORTAGE of parts as some predicted above and in the op...there will probably be an overage of used parts due to this program and a SHORTAGE of used cars...and remember, not all the cars that had been traded were reusable cars, or cars that anyone else could use or resell!

My clunker was an efficient car, got 22 mpg 15 years ago, when my dad bought it originally...and did not qualify for the rebate because the car had to get 18 mpg or less....

I still think it was a good promotion! yes, it would have been nice if it hadn't been the tax payer's dollar to run it, and these car companies couldn't have thought up and done this promo or something similar and as powerful, on their own! I bet they repeat something similar, on their own dime, similar to this verses doing that 0% FINANCING promo that they usually spend their marketing dollars on which will be near impossible to pull off with credit being tight and all... and go with something like this thing they ran...minus the having to salvage the car part!

one, if the estimate was that they were going to sell 250k cars in a period where they would have only sold $200k is a 25% increase in sales over the same allocated period....that ain't shabby imo.

And second this was the estimate on the initial $1 billion stimulus set aside for this program. Now, they are going to "shorten the 4 month period of the promotion to 2 months, plus add another $2 billion in to it.

We have already established that the dealerships said that they would normally sell 200k cars during this 4 month period of the promotion, without a promotion.

So, let's logically presume that in 2 months they would normally sell 100k cars....

Let's also presume that the rate of sales on the cash for clunkers does not slow down and keeps up with its successful sell rate until the money runs out, which could be even shorter than the 2 month period they are now at with the revised ending date....

this would mean that instead of selling 100k cars in 2 months, they will be selling 750,000 cars in this same 2 month period! that's a 750% increase during the same period of sales the previous year! (the 750k cars sold is based on the calculation that someone made regarding selling 250k on the 1 billion dollar stimulus spent for it, so if $3 billion is spent that would be the 750k cars sold.)

Now, granted...the following month or two, following a promotion of this colossal size, sales will reduce and not meet the 100k they had done the previous year for the 2 remaining months of the 4 month period....my best guess, base off of my own promotional experiences with events such as this, is that their sales may drop 25% the following month or two...so instead of doing 100k in car sales, they may do 75k in car sales...so they drop 25k in cars sold during that period...(and I am being pessimistic on the estimate because normally, the following month the sales drop after a big event, but the month after such... sales begin to pick up again, and even a possible increase in sales verses the previous year because grass roots advertising with your product in hand, gets those that have not bought a new car, wanting a new car due to coveting what their neighbor has....etc.)

This WAS A PHENOMENAL promotion....the only draw back was using our money to do it instead of their own, but I believe we still come ahead, as the tax payer who has a 70% stake in some of the American Car Manufacturers....

we need them to do well!

care

 

[Terry]

This Ford Dealer was on the radio yesterday and he stated that he has sold 30 new cars so far with the cash for clunkers but he just found out that in order for the Gov. to reimburse him the person who purchased a new car under the CfC cannot owe any back taxes, no property or any kind of back taxes. If they do then it will be up to the Dealership to go after the person who purchased the car to get that 4 grand back because the Gov. won't. Nice huh.

 

[Intense]

Go for it.

 

[Care4all]

This Ford Dealer was on the radio yesterday and he stated that he has sold 30 new cars so far with the cash for clunkers but he just found out that in order for the Gov. to reimburse him the person who purchased a new car under the CfC cannot owe any back taxes, no property or any kind of back taxes. If they do then it will be up to the Dealership to go after the person who purchased the car to get that 4 grand back because the Gov. won't. Nice huh.

Are you saying the government did not supply a call line for the dealers to call in order for the person to clear?

Because, I think this is how it should be Terry...someone who owes back taxes, should not be eligible to qualify for this tax credit imo.

I'd even bet, that it was probably a conservative that introduced this measure...!

 

[Intense]

There is a difference between this and the housing bubble...the housing bubble, credit was a dime a dozen...even no assets, no job, no nothin' loans were issued to anybody and everybody...

This is not the case now, credit is tighter than ever and near impossible to get unless you have a good credit rating and job.

I saw on the news that Dealers feared this the most...that they would have a great promotion but not enough of the people trading in clunkers would be credit worthy. And that they were pleased that many of them were credit worthy and were able to qualify for the remaining balance loan.

The other thing I heard on c-span is that the dealers must SALVAGE the cars at a SALVAGE AUCTION for parts only, and get a receipt for such for each car before the government will rebate the Dealers.

This means that there WILL NOT be a SHORTAGE of parts as some predicted above and in the op...there will probably be an overage of used parts due to this program and a SHORTAGE of used cars...and remember, not all the cars that had been traded were reusable cars, or cars that anyone else could use or resell!

My clunker was an efficient car, got 22 mpg 15 years ago, when my dad bought it originally...and did not qualify for the rebate because the car had to get 18 mpg or less....

I still think it was a good promotion! yes, it would have been nice if it hadn't been the tax payer's dollar to run it, and these car companies couldn't have thought up and done this promo or something similar and as powerful, on their own! I bet they repeat something similar, on their own dime, similar to this verses doing that 0% FINANCING promo that they usually spend their marketing dollars on which will be near impossible to pull off with credit being tight and all... and go with something like this thing they ran...minus the having to salvage the car part!

one, if the estimate was that they were going to sell 250k cars in a period where they would have only sold $200k is a 25% increase in sales over the same allocated period....that ain't shabby imo.

And second this was the estimate on the initial $1 billion stimulus set aside for this program. Now, they are going to "shorten the 4 month period of the promotion to 2 months, plus add another $2 billion in to it.

We have already established that the dealerships said that they would normally sell 200k cars during this 4 month period of the promotion, without a promotion.

So, let's logically presume that in 2 months they would normally sell 100k cars....

Let's also presume that the rate of sales on the cash for clunkers does not slow down and keeps up with its successful sell rate until the money runs out, which could be even shorter than the 2 month period they are now at with the revised ending date....

this would mean that instead of selling 100k cars in 2 months, they will be selling 750,000 cars in this same 2 month period! that's a 750% increase during the same period of sales the previous year! (the 750k cars sold is based on the calculation that someone made regarding selling 250k on the 1 billion dollar stimulus spent for it, so if $3 billion is spent that would be the 750k cars sold.)

Now, granted...the following month or two, following a promotion of this colossal size, sales will reduce and not meet the 100k they had done the previous year for the 2 remaining months of the 4 month period....my best guess, base off of my own promotional experiences with events such as this, is that their sales may drop 25% the following month or two...so instead of doing 100k in car sales, they may do 75k in car sales...so they drop 25k in cars sold during that period...(and I am being pessimistic on the estimate because normally, the following month the sales drop after a big event, but the month after such... sales begin to pick up again, and even a possible increase in sales verses the previous year because grass roots advertising with your product in hand, gets those that have not bought a new car, wanting a new car due to coveting what their neighbor has....etc.)

This WAS A PHENOMENAL promotion....the only draw back was using our money to do it instead of their own, but I believe we still come ahead, as the tax payer who has a 70% stake in some of the American Car Manufacturers....

we need them to do well!

care

I understand that the engines and transmissions must be destroyed. The salvage must destroy the frame within a certain period of time. These cars can't be resold.

The Dealers are covering the rebates from their own pockets, they are barely getting reimbursed.
Doesn't strike you as a little bit odd that the Government chose to do this only after the hostile take over of GM and Chrysler? Why not sooner? Why not directly reimburse the consumer, why stick the dealer in the middle? What purpose does it serve.

 

[Intense]

This Ford Dealer was on the radio yesterday and he stated that he has sold 30 new cars so far with the cash for clunkers but he just found out that in order for the Gov. to reimburse him the person who purchased a new car under the CfC cannot owe any back taxes, no property or any kind of back taxes. If they do then it will be up to the Dealership to go after the person who purchased the car to get that 4 grand back because the Gov. won't. Nice huh.

Are you saying the government did not supply a call line for the dealers to call in order for the person to clear?

Because, I think this is how it should be Terry...someone who owes back taxes, should not be eligible to qualify for this tax credit imo.

I'd even bet, that it was probably a conservative that introduced this measure...!

Glen Beck had a Ford Dealer on his Radio Show yesterday. The claim was that the system is overwhelmed. They were not returning calls, answering E-Mails, Etc. Chaos.

 

[Care4all]

There is a difference between this and the housing bubble...the housing bubble, credit was a dime a dozen...even no assets, no job, no nothin' loans were issued to anybody and everybody...

This is not the case now, credit is tighter than ever and near impossible to get unless you have a good credit rating and job.

I saw on the news that Dealers feared this the most...that they would have a great promotion but not enough of the people trading in clunkers would be credit worthy. And that they were pleased that many of them were credit worthy and were able to qualify for the remaining balance loan.

The other thing I heard on c-span is that the dealers must SALVAGE the cars at a SALVAGE AUCTION for parts only, and get a receipt for such for each car before the government will rebate the Dealers.

This means that there WILL NOT be a SHORTAGE of parts as some predicted above and in the op...there will probably be an overage of used parts due to this program and a SHORTAGE of used cars...and remember, not all the cars that had been traded were reusable cars, or cars that anyone else could use or resell!

My clunker was an efficient car, got 22 mpg 15 years ago, when my dad bought it originally...and did not qualify for the rebate because the car had to get 18 mpg or less....

I still think it was a good promotion! yes, it would have been nice if it hadn't been the tax payer's dollar to run it, and these car companies couldn't have thought up and done this promo or something similar and as powerful, on their own! I bet they repeat something similar, on their own dime, similar to this verses doing that 0% FINANCING promo that they usually spend their marketing dollars on which will be near impossible to pull off with credit being tight and all... and go with something like this thing they ran...minus the having to salvage the car part!

one, if the estimate was that they were going to sell 250k cars in a period where they would have only sold $200k is a 25% increase in sales over the same allocated period....that ain't shabby imo.

And second this was the estimate on the initial $1 billion stimulus set aside for this program. Now, they are going to "shorten the 4 month period of the promotion to 2 months, plus add another $2 billion in to it.

We have already established that the dealerships said that they would normally sell 200k cars during this 4 month period of the promotion, without a promotion.

So, let's logically presume that in 2 months they would normally sell 100k cars....

Let's also presume that the rate of sales on the cash for clunkers does not slow down and keeps up with its successful sell rate until the money runs out, which could be even shorter than the 2 month period they are now at with the revised ending date....

this would mean that instead of selling 100k cars in 2 months, they will be selling 750,000 cars in this same 2 month period! that's a 750% increase during the same period of sales the previous year! (the 750k cars sold is based on the calculation that someone made regarding selling 250k on the 1 billion dollar stimulus spent for it, so if $3 billion is spent that would be the 750k cars sold.)

Now, granted...the following month or two, following a promotion of this colossal size, sales will reduce and not meet the 100k they had done the previous year for the 2 remaining months of the 4 month period....my best guess, base off of my own promotional experiences with events such as this, is that their sales may drop 25% the following month or two...so instead of doing 100k in car sales, they may do 75k in car sales...so they drop 25k in cars sold during that period...(and I am being pessimistic on the estimate because normally, the following month the sales drop after a big event, but the month after such... sales begin to pick up again, and even a possible increase in sales verses the previous year because grass roots advertising with your product in hand, gets those that have not bought a new car, wanting a new car due to coveting what their neighbor has....etc.)

This WAS A PHENOMENAL promotion....the only draw back was using our money to do it instead of their own, but I believe we still come ahead, as the tax payer who has a 70% stake in some of the American Car Manufacturers....

we need them to do well!

care

I understand that the engines and transmissions must be destroyed. The salvage must destroy the frame within a certain period of time. These cars can't be resold.

The Dealers are covering the rebates from their own pockets, they are barely getting reimbursed.
Doesn't strike you as a little bit odd that the Government chose to do this only after the hostile take over of GM and Chrysler? Why not sooner? Why not directly reimburse the consumer, why stick the dealer in the middle? What purpose does it serve.

yes, i too heard, the cars themselves can not be sold, but their salvaged parts and pieces can....the frame could be sold for scrap metal type thing!

i am missing your concern on it being odd?

the dealers, are the one benefiting from clearing their lots, of stale car inventory...dead wood, the dealer is benefiting from the sales of each one of those 750,000 cars sold, so are their commissioned salesmen, the dealer got handed a promotion of a lifetime with pure profit handed to them from the gvt...

the dealer had ALL RULES AVAILABLE to them prior to the event, the gvt shouldn't need to spoon feed these private businesses on how to run their promotion. I saw on c-span that many dealers chose to seal the deal, paperwork wise, but not let the consumer leave with new car until i's dotted and t's crossed, others had contracts drawn where customer agreed to return car or payup if their deal didn't go thru....

giving the rebate to the consumer AFTER the fact would not work, because this would force the consumer to get via qualifying for a car loan for the additional $4500 in order to leave the lot with the car the same day or two....

care

 

[Jon]

I'd even bet, that it was probably a conservative that introduced this measure...!

You are such a stupid partisan bitch.

The fact that you support this bill speaks for itself. It's a horrible idea, because we are paying car companies, like GM. Didn't we already give GM enough? Didn't we already give the banks enough? What else would you like for us to do? This promotion won't help the economy. All it has done is move next year's sales to this year. So what happens next year? The auto industry will still be in shambles. Are we going to give them another $3B next year when their sales are in the dump?

If your President has any say, then yes, we'll give them the entire yearly budget. Hell, we may as well.

God I fucking hate idiots.

 

[Ravi]

God I fucking hate idiots.

Then you must hate yourself.

btw, Care is probably the least partisan person on this forum.

What a twit you are.

 

[Ravi]

Care, I found this today and was reminded of our conversation before:

CHRYSLER
Chrysler will match your CARS rebate on most 2009 model year Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep vehicles by offering an additional $3,500 or $4,500 cash back. That means up to nine thousand dollars off the price of a new car. Alternatively, qualified buyers can get 0% financing for 72 months.

Cash for Clunkers (C.A.R.S.) Deals

As for not giving the rebate to someone that owes back taxes, I couldn't find anything. Doesn't really make sense, they'll still owe the back taxes and penalties either way.

It is written into the program that the car can have no liens against it and have a free and clear title.

Dealers must still declare the rebate from the government as income, people buying the cars don't.

 

[Care4all]

I'd even bet, that it was probably a conservative that introduced this measure...!

You are such a stupid partisan bitch.

The fact that you support this bill speaks for itself. It's a horrible idea, because we are paying car companies, like GM. Didn't we already give GM enough? Didn't we already give the banks enough? What else would you like for us to do? This promotion won't help the economy. All it has done is move next year's sales to this year. So what happens next year? The auto industry will still be in shambles. Are we going to give them another $3B next year when their sales are in the dump?

If your President has any say, then yes, we'll give them the entire yearly budget. Hell, we may as well.

God I fucking hate idiots.

maybe it is hereditary? but it appears as though you certainly have some deep anger issues inside ya jsanders that a name change won't console...!!!

what in the world was partisan about that statement? IF a conservative added this measure, it was a SMART THING to do mr postman....are you that dense or so blinded by your anger and outrage that you can not see this? Do you really think making sure citizens that owe back taxes being exempt from this gvt credit is a bad idea? sheesh!

i was not for any bailouts, i was not in support of the stimulus.

THAT being said:

as a very seasoned retailer and marketing mgr, i am very pleased, so far with the results reported, with this event...i explained such, in great detail of why i see it as a successful event on several posts now....not just successful, astounding!!! there is much that can be learned from it by the dealers of which they can capitalize off of on future events of their own.

just because one was against the stimulus and bailouts, does NOT MEAN i have to take the screwed up position of wishing those measures to FAIL....to do that, IS PARTISAN HACKERY.... look in the mirror dear boy....and sincerely, get some help with your uncontrollable nastiness and anger!

and you are a hypocrite to bitch to no end about the program, while utilizing it imo!

care

 

[Ravi]

jsanders is angry at himself for taking a government hand out.

 

[Care4all]

Care, I found this today and was reminded of our conversation before:

CHRYSLER
Chrysler will match your CARS rebate on most 2009 model year Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep vehicles by offering an additional $3,500 or $4,500 cash back. That means up to nine thousand dollars off the price of a new car. Alternatively, qualified buyers can get 0% financing for 72 months.

Cash for Clunkers (C.A.R.S.) Deals

As for not giving the rebate to someone that owes back taxes, I couldn't find anything. Doesn't really make sense, they'll still owe the back taxes and penalties either way.

It is written into the program that the car can have no liens against it and have a free and clear title.

Dealers must still declare the rebate from the government as income, people buying the cars don't.

ty ravi, but IF the measure is in the bill, i still speculate it as something a republican would have added to the bill, and still a good idea...i do see what you mean about the taxes still being owed regardless...but the promo money was limited, and if the tax avoider took the cash for clunker deal, it could be or would be at the expense of a tax abider that may not have gotten the clunker deal because the money ran out...?

thanks for finding that car dealer match info we were talking about the other day!

care

 

[Intense]

Care, I found this today and was reminded of our conversation before:

CHRYSLER
Chrysler will match your CARS rebate on most 2009 model year Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep vehicles by offering an additional $3,500 or $4,500 cash back. That means up to nine thousand dollars off the price of a new car. Alternatively, qualified buyers can get 0% financing for 72 months.

Cash for Clunkers (C.A.R.S.) Deals

As for not giving the rebate to someone that owes back taxes, I couldn't find anything. Doesn't really make sense, they'll still owe the back taxes and penalties either way.

It is written into the program that the car can have no liens against it and have a free and clear title.

Dealers must still declare the rebate from the government as income, people buying the cars don't.

ty ravi, but IF the measure is in the bill, i still speculate it as something a republican would have added to the bill, and still a good idea...i do see what you mean about the taxes still being owed regardless...but the promo money was limited, and if the tax avoider took the cash for clunker deal, it could be or would be at the expense of a tax abider that may not have gotten the clunker deal because the money ran out...?

thanks for finding that car dealer match info we were talking about the other day!

care

Who is Chrysler? Who is GM? Yeah they are going to match it and what, increase tax to cover the bet? Where are they getting the money?

In all fairness Care4All, All I'm saying is that this is questionable at best. Red flags are going up all over, this is not imagined. Dealerships are already put into jeopardy here. Gov't is pushing us to spend when we should be preparing. The shit hits the fan next year, and everyone is buying or selling that it's over. It has not hit yet.

 

[Terry]

This Ford Dealer was on the radio yesterday and he stated that he has sold 30 new cars so far with the cash for clunkers but he just found out that in order for the Gov. to reimburse him the person who purchased a new car under the CfC cannot owe any back taxes, no property or any kind of back taxes. If they do then it will be up to the Dealership to go after the person who purchased the car to get that 4 grand back because the Gov. won't. Nice huh.

Are you saying the government did not supply a call line for the dealers to call in order for the person to clear?

Because, I think this is how it should be Terry...someone who owes back taxes, should not be eligible to qualify for this tax credit imo.

I'd even bet, that it was probably a conservative that introduced this measure...!

The guy said he has been calling some number for 4 days straight and busy busy busy..he has yet to get through.