2012, the issues, the politics, the cliches.

[DiamondDave]

who sets the guidelines for getting a HS diploma even through homeschooling? oh thats right the state! you either follow their guidelines or you kid doesnt get a high school diploma.


your kids are also gonna have a major issue getting a decent job in the future without a college education. unless he wants to dig a ditch, work at a fast food resturant or clean my pool and mow my lawn.

well you dont have to live in this Country either, go ahead and move to somewhere that has everything you want. no one is forcing you to live here.

Bullshit...

Ever hear of trade schools? Working your way up after gaining entry level jobs? You think construction workers don't make money? You think a person opening a cleaning service needs a college education?

Signed...
H.S. diploma Army trained Vet making well above the average income as an engineer and manager in the tech world

working your way up from an $8 an hour job to the average starting salary of a college grade typically doesnt happen in 4 years. ive also worked in construction, and union guys yes they make decent wages, non union guys start at around $12 an hour for a general laborer, and skilled operators usually top out around $45 - $50 an hour, but that does take quite a long time to make it from laborer to operator, unless........ you get a higher education!

trade schools I still consider to be higher education beyond high school as you actually need a diploma to get into to one.

the army i will give you, but i also consider the technical jobs of the army to be its own higher education in itself. nuclear engineer, aircraft mechanic, intelligence officer... and so on are very highly skilled jobs and earn good living.

You have the freedom to do as much or as little as it takes to 'move up', stay stagnant, or falter.... you see... it's about the freedom to live by your choices, efforts, etc... and it does NOT take a college education

I started doubling my salary EVERY 2-3 years after I ETS'd from the Army... with NO college degree... and I have passed over college grads every step of the way... and as a matter of fact, I toss out resumes from college kids practically every day

I have known dropouts to start cleaning businesses and do fabulous... know one that worked as a limo driver, after being a HS fuckup, who saved like crazy to buy his own limo with 3 years, and build a fleet from there, and now at 42 owns a company with a fleet of 30 limos... know ones who started off as electrical apprentices, who now make damn good money... and the list goes on

the fact is that a college education does not really do anything for you except maybe a closer look by HR... and in many cases, ones who go to college are worse off paying off ungodly amounts of loans and gaining a superiority complex that does them no good in the real world... the only thing preventing ANYONE from getting a 'decent' job is the self... not education

 

[WillowTree]

We live in interesting times. The upcoming election will decide the quality of life for the next generation of Americans as the people will pick a new House of Representatives, one-third of the Senate and a President who will guide us until January 2017.

Since the election of Ronald Reagan our politics have been sorely divided along ideological lines, as the two major parties seek to fundamentally change America. The issues we face today have changed very little over the course of our history as a nation; today, unfortunately, the animosity amonst us maybe as severe as at anytime in our history, save for Civil War era.

Every week or so a new event clouds the landscape as the talking heads, blogosphere and 24/7 'news' issues BREAKING NEWS alerts, many times on salacious matters which have nothing to do with our real problems.

Is it possilbe for there to be general agreement on the real problems facing us today? And from there to begin to dabate potenital solutions critically, looking outside the box of ideological purity?

The real problem facing us today is that far left whackaloon lives in the wh and has gone on a massive spending spree and we need to get his ass out of there.. how'd I do?

if you remove the bailout and stimulus, Bush actually has spent more because of the wars in iraq and afghanistan that obama. where was your outrage on spending from 2000 - 2008?

If cowshit was butter we wouldn't have to churn now would we. Why would you remove the bailout and the stimulus? It was money he pissed away, and it seems as if he agrees with President Bush cause he kept the war in Iraq and doubled down in Afghanistan and wasn't satisfied with that so he started a third war.. where the fuck is your freaking outrage asshole?

 

[Skynet]

Bullshit...

Ever hear of trade schools? Working your way up after gaining entry level jobs? You think construction workers don't make money? You think a person opening a cleaning service needs a college education?

Signed...
H.S. diploma Army trained Vet making well above the average income as an engineer and manager in the tech world

working your way up from an $8 an hour job to the average starting salary of a college grade typically doesnt happen in 4 years. ive also worked in construction, and union guys yes they make decent wages, non union guys start at around $12 an hour for a general laborer, and skilled operators usually top out around $45 - $50 an hour, but that does take quite a long time to make it from laborer to operator, unless........ you get a higher education!

trade schools I still consider to be higher education beyond high school as you actually need a diploma to get into to one.

the army i will give you, but i also consider the technical jobs of the army to be its own higher education in itself. nuclear engineer, aircraft mechanic, intelligence officer... and so on are very highly skilled jobs and earn good living.

You have the freedom to do as much or as little as it takes to 'move up', stay stagnant, or falter.... you see... it's about the freedom to live by your choices, efforts, etc... and it does NOT take a college education

I started doubling my salary EVERY 2-3 years after I ETS'd from the Army... with NO college degree... and I have passed over college grads every step of the way... and as a matter of fact, I toss out resumes from college kids practically every day

I have known dropouts to start cleaning businesses and do fabulous... know one that worked as a limo driver, after being a HS fuckup, who saved like crazy to buy his own limo with 3 years, and build a fleet from there, and now at 42 owns a company with a fleet of 30 limos... know ones who started off as electrical apprentices, who now make damn good money... and the list goes on

the fact is that a college education does not really do anything for you except maybe a closer look by HR... and in many cases, ones who go to college are worse off paying off ungodly amounts of loans and gaining a superiority complex that does them no good in the real world... the only thing preventing ANYONE from getting a 'decent' job is the self... not education

that may have been true for previous generation, but it is not as true for the current generation.

 

[DiamondDave]

working your way up from an $8 an hour job to the average starting salary of a college grade typically doesnt happen in 4 years. ive also worked in construction, and union guys yes they make decent wages, non union guys start at around $12 an hour for a general laborer, and skilled operators usually top out around $45 - $50 an hour, but that does take quite a long time to make it from laborer to operator, unless........ you get a higher education!

trade schools I still consider to be higher education beyond high school as you actually need a diploma to get into to one.

the army i will give you, but i also consider the technical jobs of the army to be its own higher education in itself. nuclear engineer, aircraft mechanic, intelligence officer... and so on are very highly skilled jobs and earn good living.

You have the freedom to do as much or as little as it takes to 'move up', stay stagnant, or falter.... you see... it's about the freedom to live by your choices, efforts, etc... and it does NOT take a college education

I started doubling my salary EVERY 2-3 years after I ETS'd from the Army... with NO college degree... and I have passed over college grads every step of the way... and as a matter of fact, I toss out resumes from college kids practically every day

I have known dropouts to start cleaning businesses and do fabulous... know one that worked as a limo driver, after being a HS fuckup, who saved like crazy to buy his own limo with 3 years, and build a fleet from there, and now at 42 owns a company with a fleet of 30 limos... know ones who started off as electrical apprentices, who now make damn good money... and the list goes on

the fact is that a college education does not really do anything for you except maybe a closer look by HR... and in many cases, ones who go to college are worse off paying off ungodly amounts of loans and gaining a superiority complex that does them no good in the real world... the only thing preventing ANYONE from getting a 'decent' job is the self... not education

that may have been true for previous generation, but it is not as true for the current generation.

Absolute RUBBISH....

It is still the self.. not the piece of paper that comes with regurgitating outdated information from textbooks and holier than thou professors who can't cut it in the real world, thanks to college...

 

[Avorysuds]

working your way up from an $8 an hour job to the average starting salary of a college grade typically doesnt happen in 4 years. ive also worked in construction, and union guys yes they make decent wages, non union guys start at around $12 an hour for a general laborer, and skilled operators usually top out around $45 - $50 an hour, but that does take quite a long time to make it from laborer to operator, unless........ you get a higher education!

trade schools I still consider to be higher education beyond high school as you actually need a diploma to get into to one.

the army i will give you, but i also consider the technical jobs of the army to be its own higher education in itself. nuclear engineer, aircraft mechanic, intelligence officer... and so on are very highly skilled jobs and earn good living.

You have the freedom to do as much or as little as it takes to 'move up', stay stagnant, or falter.... you see... it's about the freedom to live by your choices, efforts, etc... and it does NOT take a college education

I started doubling my salary EVERY 2-3 years after I ETS'd from the Army... with NO college degree... and I have passed over college grads every step of the way... and as a matter of fact, I toss out resumes from college kids practically every day

I have known dropouts to start cleaning businesses and do fabulous... know one that worked as a limo driver, after being a HS fuckup, who saved like crazy to buy his own limo with 3 years, and build a fleet from there, and now at 42 owns a company with a fleet of 30 limos... know ones who started off as electrical apprentices, who now make damn good money... and the list goes on

the fact is that a college education does not really do anything for you except maybe a closer look by HR... and in many cases, ones who go to college are worse off paying off ungodly amounts of loans and gaining a superiority complex that does them no good in the real world... the only thing preventing ANYONE from getting a 'decent' job is the self... not education

that may have been true for previous generation, but it is not as true for the current generation.

It's more true today than ever before. How many kids at 25 (lol) graduate and end up living at home with 50-100k in debt an no job?

 

[Skynet]

You have the freedom to do as much or as little as it takes to 'move up', stay stagnant, or falter.... you see... it's about the freedom to live by your choices, efforts, etc... and it does NOT take a college education

I started doubling my salary EVERY 2-3 years after I ETS'd from the Army... with NO college degree... and I have passed over college grads every step of the way... and as a matter of fact, I toss out resumes from college kids practically every day

I have known dropouts to start cleaning businesses and do fabulous... know one that worked as a limo driver, after being a HS fuckup, who saved like crazy to buy his own limo with 3 years, and build a fleet from there, and now at 42 owns a company with a fleet of 30 limos... know ones who started off as electrical apprentices, who now make damn good money... and the list goes on

the fact is that a college education does not really do anything for you except maybe a closer look by HR... and in many cases, ones who go to college are worse off paying off ungodly amounts of loans and gaining a superiority complex that does them no good in the real world... the only thing preventing ANYONE from getting a 'decent' job is the self... not education

that may have been true for previous generation, but it is not as true for the current generation.

It's more true today than ever before. How many kids at 25 (lol) graduate and end up living at home with 50-100k in debt an no job?

whats the average starting salary for a college graduate? $0k per year. or about $25 per hour
Starting salary offers for college graduates rise 3.5% - Feb. 10, 2011

and that doesnt even include those with graduate degrees.

what the average starting salary for a high school grad? $8 maybe $10 per hour?

youre trying to use job market stagnation as an excuse for not going to college? great argument

 

[Anachronism]

whats the average starting salary for a college graduate? $0k per year. or about $25 per hour

At $25 an hour, most of them are overpaid by at least 100%. Most probably closer to 150%.

 

[Skynet]

whats the average starting salary for a college graduate? $0k per year. or about $25 per hour

At $25 an hour, most of them are overpaid by at least 100%. Most probably closer to 150%.

still probably more than you make

 

[logical4u]

out of control spending:
keep going until the country collapses
cut everything that isn't necessary for life of country

social security:
keep going until the country collapses
use 'national health' care to refuse treatment for anyone on social security(cut costs for SS & health care at the same time!)
make serious changes and recommend more personal savings

welfare:
do the drug test(10% of those collecting per 3 mos, and on initial application), pay for it by reducing the amount of benefits
reduce benefits/give vouchers/cards for 'healthy foods', if you are collecting, you don't get sodas and treats
keep benefits going for 6 months after recipient gets job, put money into supervised account for 'start'. Loses eligilibility for two years afterwards.

foodstamps:
limit types of groceries that can be purchased with foodstamps, no treats, no junk, no soda

immigration:
lose the laws passed after 1960 for immigration.
do new laws:
must state willingness to join American society, not change it to failed country of origination
must have American sponsor that can be held accountable (financially) for immigrant
must pass health screening, we do not want contagious diseases or parasites, thank you.
must apply for citizenship with in 2 years or go back to country of origin
no welfare
no medicaid

education:
go back to community schools. If you are proud of your community, you will take care of your school
eliminate the dept of education, student performance has not improved since inception
allow community to establish standards taught in school
eliminate scam of federal funding to universities and colleges, unless school can provide evidence its graduates are hired in large percentages
allow communities to set course work (they are paying for it)
allow communities to set sports programs (if they want an uneducated player to be administering medicine, they will stress sports over education)

energy:
we need it, we will die without it. Let each state determine how important it is to have electricity and what they are willing to pay for it. List the options so it is clear: wind=$500 megawatt, solar=$400 MW, coal=$80 MW, nuclear=$78 MW, and then adjust their energy bill accordingly.
Drill baby, drill .... pump when dictators of oil rich nations want to fuss/raise their food prices (from us) at same percentage they raise their oil because of their poor management.

defense:
untie the hands, let the commanders report on conflicts where weapons were fired.
we can't afford to be nice, if we are after target, we don't have the resources to ask all the people being used as human shields, to move, politely.
use shock and awe: if we go into a place, anyone within miles will know we were there, leave the stain for them to clean, so they will realize the costs for us for all previous conflicts.
if your country wants us to help your country, list the costs: $10 million a day for military conflicts, $20 million a day for police actions, $30 million a day for rebuilding, if you can't pay cash, an agreement on what resources belong to us will be signed by: leader, senior military leaders and senior ministers.

policies:
Stop funding immorality: sex ed, condom handouts, abortion, EASY supprt for unwed mothers
Use the failing European countries as reasons not to increase government handouts
Reduce months eligible for unemployment insurance

There are some really bad characters that really want this country to be vulnerable for takeover. We need to strengthen our resolve, our economy, our people and our integrity. We will not do that by continuing on the path set out by the current government.

 

[Anachronism]

still probably more than you make

No, actually it's not. My rate of pay is between $30 & $35 an hour. I work in a technical position for the third largest gas & electric utility company in the United States.

 

[American Legacy]

Is it possilbe for there to be general agreement on the real problems facing us today? And from there to begin to debate potential solutions critically, looking outside the box of ideological purity?

Fair enough. I'm pragmatic. To start a substantive discussion, what are the "real problems" you see facing the country today?

 

[Lars]

The war on drugs, failure.
The war on terror, failure (or, at least, the money and lives spent has been too great for the curent outcome)

Neither of these Wars have ever actually been fought. Especially the first one. Take the leash off the US Military and the FBI/BATFE/DEA and we can easily win both of these conflicts.



A properly Isolationist and Nationalistic society cures both of these problems overnight.

Primary/Secondary Education, failure (for too many)
Higher education (too expensive for too many)

Pri/Sec Education was never intended to be a State or Federal issue. It should be handled at the LOCAL level, and predominantly structured and paid for by the parents of the children being educated.

The idea that college SHOULD BE the goal of most/all high school students is laughable. Most simply waste four years in college and come out no more prepared for a CAREER than when they went in. The expense isn't the issue, the VALUE is. $160K for a piece of worthless paper that makes one no more job-ready than when they walked out of high school? I don't think so.

the reason primary education has to be both a state and federal issue is so that education is consistent across the nation. that means you are taught the same basic information in all 50 states no matter if you are at a public or private school. if it was solely a state issue, you would have 50 different set of curriculum and standard, if it was solely a local issue you would have thousands of different standards.

and youre extremely laughable stating the college shouldnt the goal of all children, its has been consistently shown that an individual with a college education. A college master's degree is worth $1.3 million more in lifetime earnings than a high school diploma. but hey i do need someone to wash my car, mow my lawn and serve my food...

Fast Facts

I went straight into the workforce after high school unlike all my high school friends, all of whom went into econ and finance majors, and definitively know more about those fields than they do through on the job experience and online learning materials which I didn't have to pay a dime for. Not to mention, they are now hundreds of thousands in debt while I have a personal net worth of hundreds of thousands of dollars and can know afford time during the day where I can chat on forums, I make my own hours for the most part and work for myself, in fact, I have others working for me. think that 1.3 million dollars number is deceiving because it doesn't include the debt after college nor the years you lose in college where you could be earning skills and an income.

This is not to say certain professions such as doctors, scientists, engineers, and lawyers(far to many of those though) don't require higher education, and offer a lot of money, but many degrees are worth the paper they are printed on and many college grads start of at jobs they could have gotten without a degree and without the debt.

I don't agree with all hyperinflation nonsense put forward by the NIA, but more or less, I thought they put together a good film on the scam these universities run.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE]YouTube - ‪College Conspiracy‬‏[/ame]

 

[Skynet]

Neither of these Wars have ever actually been fought. Especially the first one. Take the leash off the US Military and the FBI/BATFE/DEA and we can easily win both of these conflicts.



A properly Isolationist and Nationalistic society cures both of these problems overnight.



Pri/Sec Education was never intended to be a State or Federal issue. It should be handled at the LOCAL level, and predominantly structured and paid for by the parents of the children being educated.

The idea that college SHOULD BE the goal of most/all high school students is laughable. Most simply waste four years in college and come out no more prepared for a CAREER than when they went in. The expense isn't the issue, the VALUE is. $160K for a piece of worthless paper that makes one no more job-ready than when they walked out of high school? I don't think so.

the reason primary education has to be both a state and federal issue is so that education is consistent across the nation. that means you are taught the same basic information in all 50 states no matter if you are at a public or private school. if it was solely a state issue, you would have 50 different set of curriculum and standard, if it was solely a local issue you would have thousands of different standards.

and youre extremely laughable stating the college shouldnt the goal of all children, its has been consistently shown that an individual with a college education. A college master's degree is worth $1.3 million more in lifetime earnings than a high school diploma. but hey i do need someone to wash my car, mow my lawn and serve my food...

Fast Facts

I went straight into the workforce after high school unlike all my high school friends, all of whom went into econ and finance majors, and definitively know more about those fields than they do through on the job experience and online learning materials which I didn't have to pay a dime for. Not to mention, they are now hundreds of thousands in debt while I have a personal net worth of hundreds of thousands of dollars and can know afford time during the day where I can chat on forums, I make my own hours for the most part and work for myself, in fact, I have others working for me. think that 1.3 million dollars number is deceiving because it doesn't include the debt after college nor the years you lose in college where you could be earning skills and an income.

This is not to say certain professions such as doctors, scientists, engineers, and lawyers(far to many of those though) don't require higher education, and offer a lot of money, but many degrees are worth the paper they are printed on and many college grads start of at jobs they could have gotten without a degree and without the debt.

I don't agree with all hyperinflation nonsense put forward by the NIA, but more or less, I thought they put together a good film on the scam these universities run.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE]YouTube - ‪College Conspiracy‬‏[/ame]

you may be the exception to this, but not the norm.

here is more to consider.

A college education is your best bet - CNN.com

 

[DiamondDave]

whats the average starting salary for a college graduate? $0k per year. or about $25 per hour

At $25 an hour, most of them are overpaid by at least 100%. Most probably closer to 150%.

still probably more than you make

And the retort of the bloated ego college student...

I can't remember when I made that little, myself... maybe 1996??

I also LOVE how the college grads with no experience come into an interview asking for like 75K... LMAO... no practical knowledge, no real world experience, and nothing but textbook answers.... I love that almost as much as me showing them the door

 

[DiamondDave]

Matter of fact.. in skynet's honor.. I just circular filed 3 resumes with college degrees listed on them, and sent a request to HR to grant interviews to 2 with experience and no degree...

 

[Skynet]

Matter of fact.. in skynet's honor.. I just circular filed 3 resumes with college degrees listed on them, and sent a request to HR to grant interviews to 2 with experience and no degree...

out of curiosity,

1) whats the industry? (i dont need the company name just general industry)
2) how long ago did they receive their college degrees?
3) how old are those with the experience vs.the one with college degrees?

i would say there is probably a substantial age gap between the two. if its greater than 4 or 5 years, that more than makes up for the time it takes to earn a degree.

 

[Anachronism]

And the retort of the bloated ego college student...

I can't remember when I made that little, myself... maybe 1996??

I also LOVE how the college grads with no experience come into an interview asking for like 75K... LMAO... no practical knowledge, no real world experience, and nothing but textbook answers.... I love that almost as much as me showing them the door

Dave, what he misses is that I do have a college degree. I have an Associate of Science Degree in Computer Aided Design Drafting (CADD) from Johnson & Wales University. It cost about 30K (total for 2 years) back in the early 1990's. The program was a focused, career-oriented one, without all the extra humanities and other unnecessary garbage attached to it.

I've spent the last eight years or so TRAINING new Engineers with this company on how to do their jobs. The $30K of education CAD Operator having to teach the $160-200K of education Electrical Engineers how to do their jobs.

 

[DiamondDave]

Matter of fact.. in skynet's honor.. I just circular filed 3 resumes with college degrees listed on them, and sent a request to HR to grant interviews to 2 with experience and no degree...

out of curiosity,

1) whats the industry? (i dont need the company name just general industry)
2) how long ago did they receive their college degrees?
3) how old are those with the experience vs.the one with college degrees?

i would say there is probably a substantial age gap between the two. if its greater than 4 or 5 years, that more than makes up for the time it takes to earn a degree.

1) Tech
2) 1-3 years
3) ages are not on resumes - If you were a professional, you would know that

 

[Skynet]

Matter of fact.. in skynet's honor.. I just circular filed 3 resumes with college degrees listed on them, and sent a request to HR to grant interviews to 2 with experience and no degree...

out of curiosity,

1) whats the industry? (i dont need the company name just general industry)
2) how long ago did they receive their college degrees?
3) how old are those with the experience vs.the one with college degrees?

i would say there is probably a substantial age gap between the two. if its greater than 4 or 5 years, that more than makes up for the time it takes to earn a degree.

1) Tech
2) 1-3 years
3) ages are not on resumes - If you were a professional, you would know that

based on job history and the amount of years in the work force, you can usually speculate age. so in essence your probably comparing a 23-24 year old against someone in their 30's, not exactly apples to apples

and certain tech jobs you dont need a degree such as software engineering and website design.

but try getting a job in any form of engineering (mechanical, aerospace, civil etc) without a degree. good luck

 

[Lars]

the reason primary education has to be both a state and federal issue is so that education is consistent across the nation. that means you are taught the same basic information in all 50 states no matter if you are at a public or private school. if it was solely a state issue, you would have 50 different set of curriculum and standard, if it was solely a local issue you would have thousands of different standards.

and youre extremely laughable stating the college shouldnt the goal of all children, its has been consistently shown that an individual with a college education. A college master's degree is worth $1.3 million more in lifetime earnings than a high school diploma. but hey i do need someone to wash my car, mow my lawn and serve my food...

Fast Facts

I went straight into the workforce after high school unlike all my high school friends, all of whom went into econ and finance majors, and definitively know more about those fields than they do through on the job experience and online learning materials which I didn't have to pay a dime for. Not to mention, they are now hundreds of thousands in debt while I have a personal net worth of hundreds of thousands of dollars and can know afford time during the day where I can chat on forums, I make my own hours for the most part and work for myself, in fact, I have others working for me. think that 1.3 million dollars number is deceiving because it doesn't include the debt after college nor the years you lose in college where you could be earning skills and an income.

This is not to say certain professions such as doctors, scientists, engineers, and lawyers(far to many of those though) don't require higher education, and offer a lot of money, but many degrees are worth the paper they are printed on and many college grads start of at jobs they could have gotten without a degree and without the debt.

I don't agree with all hyperinflation nonsense put forward by the NIA, but more or less, I thought they put together a good film on the scam these universities run.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE]YouTube - ‪College Conspiracy‬‏[/ame]

you may be the exception to this, but not the norm.

here is more to consider.

A college education is your best bet - CNN.com

There seems to be a lot of exceptions these days. However, I would agree with you, the norm seems to be debt and job uncertainty after spending for years in a university where you acquire little to no work skills and a semblance of knowledge you could get for free on the internet. I have a friend from India who double majored in finance and economics, he can't get a job with those degrees and works in a management position at his family's chain of restaurants here in the US. Now granted, he was on full scholarship and didn't lose any money, but he could have been working in management at 18 an probably had his own chain of restaurants by now if he worked hard enough at the age of 24.