2012 q2 gdp = 1.5%

Is it ever going to be accepted that this kind of 'growth' is not only deceptively determined, but, more important, unsustainable? Economic balance is the only forward path. Basing everything on this kind of 'growth' is the most certain road to ruin.

We can't stay stable as our population is growing. The unemployment rate will naturally grow larger without a constant growth of the economic system.

A better way forward is to spend money on building our nation like China. They have the right idea.:eusa_boohoo:

what is their idea exactly???? Is it building infrastructure or building Republican private enterprise.
 
Is it ever going to be accepted that this kind of 'growth' is not only deceptively determined, but, more important, unsustainable? Economic balance is the only forward path. Basing everything on this kind of 'growth' is the most certain road to ruin.

We can't stay stable as our population is growing. The unemployment rate will naturally grow larger without a constant growth of the economic system.

A better way forward is to spend money on building our nation like China. They have the right idea.:eusa_boohoo:

what is their idea exactly???? Is it building infrastructure or building Republican private enterprise.

Within a free market the private enterprise builds the infrastructure. You see when someone has their interest on the line, they're more capable of spending the resources to be successful than the government. A marxist system micro manages from the central Government. Doesn't work.
 
Is it ever going to be accepted that this kind of 'growth' is not only deceptively determined, but, more important, unsustainable? Economic balance is the only forward path. Basing everything on this kind of 'growth' is the most certain road to ruin.

We can't stay stable as our population is growing. The unemployment rate will naturally grow larger without a constant growth of the economic system.

A better way forward is to spend money on building our nation like China. They have the right idea.:eusa_boohoo:

Those advocating for a chinese style economy, don't really understand the Chinese economy. First, while China did adopt many portions of a market based economy in 78, this doesn't mean it is completely free. In fact, it is still one of the most heavily socialized in the entire world. There are regulations, they do have a minimum wage, The government still completely controls and operates the healthcare industry, the energy sector, the banking sector, and the entire media.

Despite massive progress over the last 30 years, they are still dirt poor. PPP per capita is still only 8k. They have gone from 800 per person to 8k in 30 years. To illustrate how hard this is, go get a job making $800 a year, now try and get a wage increase to make 8k per year in 34 years time. When you look at it this way, its not very impressive. When you are massively dirt poor, utterly innefficient, and technologically unadvanced, its very easy to have high growth rates.

Lets take a look at their coal industry and compare it to the US. The US employs around 300k in the coal industry while producing 21% of the world coal. China employs 5M while producing 24%. You start to see that the American miner produces about 10 X what the average Chinese miner does. Obviously their problem here is with how they are mining and a lack of equipment. They can easily achieve 10% growth, just by buying a few pieces of heavy machinery. They don't need to equip all their workers, not even a significant number of them.

That is why they have such a continued large growth rate, because they are still technologically backwards and because they are dirt poor.
 
I said look at china to learn; not copy them.

What is there to learn? To slowly go from being technologically backwards to advanced over a period of a few hundred years, so that our growth rate looks good the entire time? As a whole they are still about as technologically advanced as we were in the 1930s. Or should we learn how to control the media to downplay any fears of a recession and lie to the people, so that there is no panic and therefore, less of a recession. Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?
 
I said look at china to learn; not copy them.

What is there to learn? To slowly go from being technologically backwards to advanced over a period of a few hundred years, so that our growth rate looks good the entire time? As a whole they are still about as technologically advanced as we were in the 1930s. Or should we learn how to control the media to downplay any fears of a recession and lie to the people, so that there is no panic and therefore, less of a recession. Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?
Chinese GDP has been mostly economicly useless show projects for the past 30 years or more therefore the argument you are refuting is a strawman.
 
Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?

middle of the road means without the intelligence to decide.

In 1985 the Chinese people bought 5000 cars, this year they will buy 18 million, more than the USA. It is a broad based capitalist prosperity the likes of which the world has never seen. It happened the minute they abandoned liberal socialism!!
 
Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?

middle of the road means without the intelligence to decide.

In 1985 the Chinese people bought 5000 cars, this year they will buy 18 million, more than the USA. It is a broad based capitalist prosperity the likes of which the world has never seen. It happened the minute they abandoned liberal socialism!!

Are you really trying to argue this after it has already been proven that it is wrong? It is not the strongest capitalist market, it is the strongest socialist market. Example Take America, now have the federal government take over the banks, the entire energy sector, the media, and any industry it deems is vital to national security, including weapons manufacturing. Then what you are left with is China.

How is that more capitalistic? The answer is obviously it is not. How can you say they are more capitalistic, when their government owns the ENTIRE health care industry, 98% of all banks, controls EVERY media outlet, and 100% of all weapons manufacturing? The Chinese government employs over 30% of the workforce there (compared to just 14% in America).

Are you really so stupid that you are still going to argue this point after being repeatedly proven wrong?
 
How can you say they are more capitalistic,

if I said they are more capitalistic I'll pay you 10,000. Bet or admit as a liberal you tricked yourself and created a strawman so you could finally win a point. Always remember, middle of the road means you lack the IQ to pick a side.

Why would anyone do that in public?? Have you no shame?
 
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Quote: Originally Posted by Middleoftheroad
Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?
middle of the road means without the intelligence to decide.


Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte
In 1985 the Chinese people bought 5000 cars, this year they will buy 18 million, more than the USA. Why would you say, "work for dirt poor wages" when now they are buying 18 million cars and then they were slowly starving to death??? See why we are positive a liberal will be slow?


It is a broad based capitalist prosperity the likes of which the world has never seen. It happened the minute they abandoned liberal socialism!!
 
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How can you say they are more capitalistic,

if I said they are more capitalistic I'll pay you 10,000. Bet or admit as a liberal you tricked yourself and created a strawman so you could finally win a point. Always remember, middle of the road means you lack the IQ to pick a side.

Why would anyone do that in public?? Have you no shame?

First picking a side means you are too stupid to think for yourself. I'm sorry that Rush has to do all your thinking for you. I really am. One day you might have an original thought, but it wont be today.

You wont be able to prove they are more capitalistic, because they simply are not. Their entire economy is directly or indirectly controlled by the government. Because their government owns every bank, that means any business that wants to get a loan has to go directly to the government. Further, if you want electricity, you have to go to the government. They have welfare in their country along with unemployment insurance. Their government takes money directly from the businesses they run along with taxes in the form of individual income taxes (which BTW is a progressive tax) along with a national VAT tax.

The only way they are more "capitalistic" then America, is that they have very few laws protecting workers. Which is directly responsible for the thousands of workplace deaths they have every year.
 
Quote: Originally Posted by Middleoftheroad
Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?
middle of the road means without the intelligence to decide.


Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte
In 1985 the Chinese people bought 5000 cars, this year they will buy 18 million, more than the USA. Why would you say, "work for dirt poor wages" when now they are buying 18 million cars and then they were slowly starving to death??? See why we are positive a liberal will be slow?


It is a broad based capitalist prosperity the likes of which the world has never seen. It happened the minute they abandoned liberal socialism!!

Did I ever say they were slowly being starved to death? No i didn't. So make up anything you want, but it doesn't make you correct. I never said things were getting worse, I said they were getting better because they were so technologically behind. Please try to keep up, I know you are a little slow.

18M cars sold in china 1.3B people = 1.3% of the population bough a car

7.7M sold in America, 300M people = 2.5% of the population.

So yes, even in the midst of a recession, China cannot even remotely compare to the US.
 
Quote: Originally Posted by Middleoftheroad
Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?
middle of the road means without the intelligence to decide.


Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte
In 1985 the Chinese people bought 5000 cars, this year they will buy 18 million, more than the USA. Why would you say, "work for dirt poor wages" when now they are buying 18 million cars and then they were slowly starving to death??? See why we are positive a liberal will be slow?


It is a broad based capitalist prosperity the likes of which the world has never seen. It happened the minute they abandoned liberal socialism!!

Did I ever say they were slowly being starved to death? No i didn't. So make up anything you want, but it doesn't make you correct. I never said things were getting worse, I said they were getting better because they were so technologically behind. Please try to keep up, I know you are a little slow.

18M cars sold in china 1.3B people = 1.3% of the population bough a car

7.7M sold in America, 300M people = 2.5% of the population.

So yes, even in the midst of a recession, China cannot even remotely compare to the US.

dear, you said they made them work for dirt poor wages, now you admit 18 million a year can buy cars when before none could!! At 10% growth a year pretty soon 100 million will be able to buy cars. This is making them work for dirt poor wages or making them get rich ???????

dirt poor en masse starvation wages was exactly what they had under liberalism!!! Is that really over your head. Can you understand how hard it is for a libertarian to understand how slow a liberal is??


See why we are positive that middle of the road is for those without the IQ to make a decision?
 
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Quote: Originally Posted by Middleoftheroad
Or should we learn how to make the people work for dirt poor wages, so the government can reap the benefits and be rich? Really, what is there to learn from China?
middle of the road means without the intelligence to decide.


Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte
In 1985 the Chinese people bought 5000 cars, this year they will buy 18 million, more than the USA. Why would you say, "work for dirt poor wages" when now they are buying 18 million cars and then they were slowly starving to death??? See why we are positive a liberal will be slow?


It is a broad based capitalist prosperity the likes of which the world has never seen. It happened the minute they abandoned liberal socialism!!

Did I ever say they were slowly being starved to death? No i didn't. So make up anything you want, but it doesn't make you correct. I never said things were getting worse, I said they were getting better because they were so technologically behind. Please try to keep up, I know you are a little slow.

18M cars sold in china 1.3B people = 1.3% of the population bough a car

7.7M sold in America, 300M people = 2.5% of the population.

So yes, even in the midst of a recession, China cannot even remotely compare to the US.

dear, you said they made them work for dirt poor wages, now you admit 18 million a year can buy cars when before none could!! At 10% growth a year pretty soon 100 million will be able to buy cars. This is making them work for dirt poor wages or making them get rich ???????

dirt poor en masse starvation wages was exactly what they had under liberalism!!! Is that really over your head. Can you understand how hard it is for a libertarian to understand how slow a liberal is??


See why we are positive that middle of the road is for those without the IQ to make a decision?

The problem is you are thinking about this the wrong way. You see economic growth as proof that they are practicing free market capitalism. Yet, the government has 99% control of their economy. Yet you still believe that they practice free market capitalism despite the fact that they dont. AND ITS A FACT. The Chinese government OWNS 98% of all banks in China. That can ONLY be defined as socialism/communism. When you combine that with the government owning the entire energy sector it has to be considered socialism.

If an American president came into office and nationalilzed the entire energy sector, and the banking sector, you would be screaming that he is the biggest socialist/communist ever. Yet when China does it, they are free market capitalist? Seriously, think about it. How can they be capitalist if the government owns the banking sector and the entire energy sector?

Please try and answer the bold.
 
The problem is you are thinking about this the wrong way.
oh this ought to be good!!! a middle of the roader tries to think!!



You see economic growth as proof that they are practicing free market capitalism.
!!!

too stupid! are you forced to buy their stuff at Walmart???? or do you buy in a free market? What about under Mao????????????


Yet, the government has 99% control of their economy.

control?? what does that mean??why did you forget to present evidence. does control mean they own as the USSR did and as Mao did??? see why we say slow, very very slow??


Yet you still believe that they practice free market capitalism despite the fact that they dont.

you're repeating yourself again and with not a shred of evidence


U.S.'s Startup Myth; China's 'Ford Moment': Commentary Review ...
Jul 3, 2010... may have to go Communist. It's tempting to wonder which way China will go. ... So far, China has taken the first path, going more the way of capitalism than Communism. ... Krugman or Paulson: Who You Gonna Bet On? ...

www.businessweek.com/news/2010-07-03/u-s-s-startup-my... - Similar

The Myth of Asia's Miracle
Paul Krugman* ... Communist growth rates were certainly impressive, but not magical. ..... unfair: one is weighing down the buoyant performance of Chinese capitalism with the leaden performance of Chinese socialism. ... Even a modest slowing in China's growth will change the geopolitical outlook substantially. ...

web.mit.edu/krugman/www/myth.html - Similar


AND ITS A FACT. The Chinese government OWNS 98% of all banks in China. That can ONLY be defined as socialism/communism.


too stupid!!! if true I'll pay you $10,000!! Bet or run away with your ignorant lying tail between your legs

"China’s current banking reform includes partially privatizing three of its dominant “Big Four” state-owned banks and taking on minority foreign ownership of these institutions. Other state-owned banks are also engaging in this practice"


When you combine that with the government owning the entire energy sector it has to be considered socialism.

all economies are mixed, dear! Econ 101 class one day one. China is moving quickly toward capitalism. If you read Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics you can get a blow by blow account of the progress from Mao to now. Wen Jiaboa openly says he read Adam Smith and takes it to heart.



If an American president came into office and nationalilzed the entire energy sector, and the banking sector, you would be screaming that he is the biggest socialist/communist ever. Yet when China does it, they are free market capitalist? Seriously, think about it. How can they be capitalist if the government owns the banking sector and the entire energy sector?

too stupid as we expect from a middle of the road dolt who admits he cant learn so stays in what he thinks is the safe middle. China is heading toward more and more capitalism under Wen while the USA is heading toward more socialism under BO. Still over your head????
 
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AND ITS A FACT. The Chinese government OWNS 98% of all banks in China. That can ONLY be defined as socialism/communism.





too stupid!!! if true I'll pay you $10,000!! Bet or run away with your ignorant lying tail between your legs


Most of China's financial institutions are state owned and governed and 98% of banking assets are state owned
Economy of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where's my $10,000?
"China’s current banking reform includes partially privatizing three of its dominant “Big Four” state-owned banks and taking on minority foreign ownership of these institutions. Other state-owned banks are also engaging in this practice"

partial privatization is the key phrase there. Do you know what that means? It means that you are allowed to invest money in it, but the government still owns the majority of it and operates it without any say from said investor, i.e. they sell a 20% stake maintaining an 80% stake and a full majority.

When you combine that with the government owning the entire energy sector it has to be considered socialism.

all economies are mixed, dear! Econ 101 class one day one. China is moving quickly toward capitalism. If you read Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics you can get a blow by blow account of the progress from Mao to now. Wen Jiaboa openly says he read Adam Smith and takes it to heart.

First you say they are the most capitalistic, now you say they are moving towards it. We call that moving the goalposts.
Though private sector companies still dominate small and medium sized businesses, the government still plays a large part in the bigger industries. The fact that government accounts for a third of the GDP shows this. Foreign owned companies hold significant stakes. The public sector is mainly made up of State-Owned Enterprises (SOEs).
Economy of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most of that transformation happened in the 80's when the government stopped owning the farms, among other businesses, in the last 10 years, the governments percentage of the economy has not changed at all. People in America complain that the government here is too big, while employing under 14% of the working population. China has 33% of GDP, with government being naturally wasteful as it is, you would have to assume that means more then 33% of the working population is working for the government. So there government, is literally around 3 X larger then the US government per capita.
 
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[
AND ITS A FACT. The Chinese government OWNS 98% of all banks in China. That can ONLY be defined as socialism/communism.

dear, socialism is owning the commanding heights while communism is owning everything, not just some of the banks

i.e. they sell a 20% stake maintaining an 80% stake and a full majority.

you said 98%?????????????????????
 
[
AND ITS A FACT. The Chinese government OWNS 98% of all banks in China. That can ONLY be defined as socialism/communism.

dear, socialism is owning the commanding heights while communism is owning everything, not just some of the banks

Not really, there are many types of Communism. True communism requires there to be no money, since no country has ever done this, does this mean there has never been communism? Obviously not. If a government controls all the money (banks) the electricity and many other industries, they effectively have complete control over the economy. Try and run a business without access to a bank or electricity. You wont do to well.
i.e. they sell a 20% stake maintaining an 80% stake and a full majority.

you said 98%?????????????????????

That was in regards to your quote, which of course you didn't post your source, so no one else can read it. The point being, they are just investors, they have no say so in the company. Basically they are just loans. The government still has complete control over the bank. Its still very high risk and could arguably be called a scam. Recently the Chinese government opened up investment in local governments. Most of these loans are now non-performing. Scam, they got our money, and now they aren't paying it back.
 
Scam, they got our money, and now they aren't paying it back.

so???????????? a fool and his money are soon parted!!! Do you have any idea what subject you are on or does middle of the road mean you are too dumb to know that too.

Well I guess you are conceding all point since you didn't respond to ANY of them. All you did was choose one line, say it was off topic.
 

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