13 year old girl schools "expert" on minimum wage

[Kevin_Kennedy]

[youtube]Jmo7YQk3DrA[/youtube]

The girl also addressed his rebuttal that "the minimum wage is already low enough" by pointing out that some jobs, such as her example of watering a garden, aren't necessarily worth the minimum wage, and in that case she doesn't get the minimum wage, or even a lower settled wage that her and the employer could come to mutually, but nothing at all. So who does that help?

 

[Immanuel]

Kudos to that young lady, in the way she handled herself.

However, her example is not really accurate. Minimum wage does not affect the neighbor hiring a neighbor's kid to water the lawn. It affects Walmart hiring employees at $3.5/hour for 40 hr/week jobs and expecting them to live off of what Walmart is willing to give them.

I, myself, have mixed feelings about the minimum wage. I believe it should be left up to the market, but I also feel that doing so would lower our standards of living because you would have employees who were willing to work for peanuts competing with people who were simply trying to survive and in that case the guy willing to work for peanuts is going to win.

Immie

 

[goldcatt]

The OP completely ignores the fact that minimum wage does not apply to her situation. At all. Forget FLSA, has anybody even read the posters in their workplace?

The Act applies to enterprises with employees who engage in interstate commerce, produce goods for interstate commerce, or handle, sell, or work on goods or materials that have been moved in or produced for interstate commerce. For most firms, a test of not less than $500,000 in annual dollar volume of business applies (i.e., the Act does not cover enterprises with less than this amount of business).

The Act also permits the employment of certain individuals at wage rates below the statutory minimum wage under certificates issued by the Department of Labor:

Student learners (vocational education students);
Full‑time students in retail or service establishments, agriculture, or institutions of higher education; and
Individuals whose earning or productive capacities for the work to be performed are impaired by physical or mental disabilities, including those related to age or injury.

More at link, including links to FLSA provisions and DOL fact sheets:

Employment Law Guide - Minimum Wage and Overtime Pay

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The OP completely ignores the fact that minimum wage does not apply to her situation. At all. Forget FLSA, has anybody even read the posters in their workplace?

The Act applies to enterprises with employees who engage in interstate commerce, produce goods for interstate commerce, or handle, sell, or work on goods or materials that have been moved in or produced for interstate commerce. For most firms, a test of not less than $500,000 in annual dollar volume of business applies (i.e., the Act does not cover enterprises with less than this amount of business).

The Act also permits the employment of certain individuals at wage rates below the statutory minimum wage under certificates issued by the Department of Labor:

Student learners (vocational education students);
Full‑time students in retail or service establishments, agriculture, or institutions of higher education; and
Individuals whose earning or productive capacities for the work to be performed are impaired by physical or mental disabilities, including those related to age or injury.

More at link, including links to FLSA provisions and DOL fact sheets:

Employment Law Guide - Minimum Wage and Overtime Pay

Since anything and everything is essentially able to be considered "interstate commerce" that's really irrelevant isn't it? However, the point is that the minimum wage laws affect everyone, not just 13 year old girls.

 

[Big Fitz]

ROFLMAO!

Bloody Marvelous! The 'expert' gets schooled by a girl and then he goes to move the goal posts and gets yanked up short by the other members of the panel. I know I wouldn't be hiring 'that guy in the tan suit' for economic advice in the future. He's more concerned about 'fairness' than 'equal justice'.

 

[Big Fitz]

ROFLMAO!

Bloody Marvelous! The 'expert' gets schooled by a girl and then he goes to move the goal posts and gets yanked up short by the other members of the panel. I know I wouldn't be hiring 'that guy in the tan suit' for economic advice in the future. He's more concerned about 'fairness' than 'equal justice'.

 

[goldcatt]

The OP completely ignores the fact that minimum wage does not apply to her situation. At all. Forget FLSA, has anybody even read the posters in their workplace?

The Act applies to enterprises with employees who engage in interstate commerce, produce goods for interstate commerce, or handle, sell, or work on goods or materials that have been moved in or produced for interstate commerce. For most firms, a test of not less than $500,000 in annual dollar volume of business applies (i.e., the Act does not cover enterprises with less than this amount of business).

The Act also permits the employment of certain individuals at wage rates below the statutory minimum wage under certificates issued by the Department of Labor:

Student learners (vocational education students);
Full‑time students in retail or service establishments, agriculture, or institutions of higher education; and
Individuals whose earning or productive capacities for the work to be performed are impaired by physical or mental disabilities, including those related to age or injury.

More at link, including links to FLSA provisions and DOL fact sheets:

Employment Law Guide - Minimum Wage and Overtime Pay

Since anything and everything is essentially able to be considered "interstate commerce" that's really irrelevant isn't it? However, the point is that the minimum wage laws affect everyone, not just 13 year old girls.

She's not a full time student at the age of 13? Tending a garden is not agricultural in nature? The neighbor does $500,000 in annual business related to his garden? Under FLSA the Federal minimum wage does NOT affect everyone, that's a fallacy. Read the link, please.

 

[Big Fitz]

The OP completely ignores the fact that minimum wage does not apply to her situation. At all. Forget FLSA, has anybody even read the posters in their workplace?

The Act applies to enterprises with employees who engage in interstate commerce, produce goods for interstate commerce, or handle, sell, or work on goods or materials that have been moved in or produced for interstate commerce. For most firms, a test of not less than $500,000 in annual dollar volume of business applies (i.e., the Act does not cover enterprises with less than this amount of business).

The Act also permits the employment of certain individuals at wage rates below the statutory minimum wage under certificates issued by the Department of Labor:

Student learners (vocational education students);
Full‑time students in retail or service establishments, agriculture, or institutions of higher education; and
Individuals whose earning or productive capacities for the work to be performed are impaired by physical or mental disabilities, including those related to age or injury.

More at link, including links to FLSA provisions and DOL fact sheets:

Employment Law Guide - Minimum Wage and Overtime Pay

Since anything and everything is essentially able to be considered "interstate commerce" that's really irrelevant isn't it? However, the point is that the minimum wage laws affect everyone, not just 13 year old girls.

At least as the definition of the ICC is currently abused, yes.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The OP completely ignores the fact that minimum wage does not apply to her situation. At all. Forget FLSA, has anybody even read the posters in their workplace?





More at link, including links to FLSA provisions and DOL fact sheets:

Employment Law Guide - Minimum Wage and Overtime Pay

Since anything and everything is essentially able to be considered "interstate commerce" that's really irrelevant isn't it? However, the point is that the minimum wage laws affect everyone, not just 13 year old girls.

She's not a full time student at the age of 13? Tending a garden is not agricultural in nature? The neighbor does $500,000 in annual business related to his garden? Under FLSA the Federal minimum wage does NOT affect everyone, that's a fallacy. Read the link, please.

I'm referring to the fact that the minimum wage leads to higher unemployment. It makes it illegal for people to work for under what the government mandates and not all jobs are worth the minimum wage, which means that position simply isn't going to be filled and someone who could do that job for less gets nothing at all.

 

[goldcatt]

Since anything and everything is essentially able to be considered "interstate commerce" that's really irrelevant isn't it? However, the point is that the minimum wage laws affect everyone, not just 13 year old girls.

She's not a full time student at the age of 13? Tending a garden is not agricultural in nature? The neighbor does $500,000 in annual business related to his garden? Under FLSA the Federal minimum wage does NOT affect everyone, that's a fallacy. Read the link, please.

I'm referring to the fact that the minimum wage leads to higher unemployment. It makes it illegal for people to work for under what the government mandates and not all jobs are worth the minimum wage, which means that position simply isn't going to be filled and someone who could do that job for less gets nothing at all.

FLSA minimum wage exemptions exist specifically for jobs or workers that are not worth the minimum wage, for businesses that are too small to afford it, tipped employees and other situations that are normally used to argue against it. Do you even know what they are? Did you read the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), the DoL fact sheets, the link posted?

Fact is, the neighbor is screwing this girl out of the two bucks an hour she should probably get for doing the job. Whose fault is that? The government's for including a minimum wage exemption for exactly this situation, the neighbor's for his ignorance (or willingness to use her), or the girl's for agreeing to work for free? Who benefits?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

She's not a full time student at the age of 13? Tending a garden is not agricultural in nature? The neighbor does $500,000 in annual business related to his garden? Under FLSA the Federal minimum wage does NOT affect everyone, that's a fallacy. Read the link, please.

I'm referring to the fact that the minimum wage leads to higher unemployment. It makes it illegal for people to work for under what the government mandates and not all jobs are worth the minimum wage, which means that position simply isn't going to be filled and someone who could do that job for less gets nothing at all.

FLSA minimum wage exemptions exist specifically for jobs or workers that are not worth the minimum wage, for businesses that are too small to afford it, tipped employees and other situations that are normally used to argue against it. Do you even know what they are? Did you read the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), the DoL fact sheets, the link posted?

Fact is, the neighbor is screwing this girl out of the two bucks an hour she should probably get for doing the job. Whose fault is that? The government's for including a minimum wage exemption for exactly this situation, the neighbor's for his ignorance (or willingness to use her), or the girl's for agreeing to work for free? Who benefits?

So if I'm a 38 year old man with no skills and barely any work experience am I exempt from a minimum wage if my local Wal-Mart wants to hire me only to sweep the floor? After all, sweeping the floor isn't really worth whatever minimum wage is these days. The answer is no. That person isn't allowed, by law, to negotiate a reasonable wage with his potential employer, so he simply won't get that job and rather than making say $4/hour he makes nothing at all.

 

[goldcatt]

I'm referring to the fact that the minimum wage leads to higher unemployment. It makes it illegal for people to work for under what the government mandates and not all jobs are worth the minimum wage, which means that position simply isn't going to be filled and someone who could do that job for less gets nothing at all.

FLSA minimum wage exemptions exist specifically for jobs or workers that are not worth the minimum wage, for businesses that are too small to afford it, tipped employees and other situations that are normally used to argue against it. Do you even know what they are? Did you read the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), the DoL fact sheets, the link posted?

Fact is, the neighbor is screwing this girl out of the two bucks an hour she should probably get for doing the job. Whose fault is that? The government's for including a minimum wage exemption for exactly this situation, the neighbor's for his ignorance (or willingness to use her), or the girl's for agreeing to work for free? Who benefits?

So if I'm a 38 year old man with no skills and barely any work experience am I exempt from a minimum wage if my local Wal-Mart wants to hire me only to sweep the floor? After all, sweeping the floor isn't really worth whatever minimum wage is these days. The answer is no. That person isn't allowed, by law, to negotiate a reasonable wage with his potential employer, so he simply won't get that job and rather than making say $4/hour he makes nothing at all.

If you're an able bodied man age 38 with no skills and barely any work experience, I'm sorry but you have far bigger problems than trying to negotiate a job paying $4 an hour.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

FLSA minimum wage exemptions exist specifically for jobs or workers that are not worth the minimum wage, for businesses that are too small to afford it, tipped employees and other situations that are normally used to argue against it. Do you even know what they are? Did you read the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), the DoL fact sheets, the link posted?

Fact is, the neighbor is screwing this girl out of the two bucks an hour she should probably get for doing the job. Whose fault is that? The government's for including a minimum wage exemption for exactly this situation, the neighbor's for his ignorance (or willingness to use her), or the girl's for agreeing to work for free? Who benefits?

So if I'm a 38 year old man with no skills and barely any work experience am I exempt from a minimum wage if my local Wal-Mart wants to hire me only to sweep the floor? After all, sweeping the floor isn't really worth whatever minimum wage is these days. The answer is no. That person isn't allowed, by law, to negotiate a reasonable wage with his potential employer, so he simply won't get that job and rather than making say $4/hour he makes nothing at all.

If you're an able bodied man age 38 with no skills and barely any work experience, I'm sorry but you have far bigger problems than trying to negotiate a job paying $4 an hour.

If that's the situation then I don't think that you do have bigger problems than that, because you obviously need a job and the government isn't allowing you to negotiate a reasonable wage for one.

 

[goldcatt]

So if I'm a 38 year old man with no skills and barely any work experience am I exempt from a minimum wage if my local Wal-Mart wants to hire me only to sweep the floor? After all, sweeping the floor isn't really worth whatever minimum wage is these days. The answer is no. That person isn't allowed, by law, to negotiate a reasonable wage with his potential employer, so he simply won't get that job and rather than making say $4/hour he makes nothing at all.

If you're an able bodied man age 38 with no skills and barely any work experience, I'm sorry but you have far bigger problems than trying to negotiate a job paying $4 an hour.

If that's the situation then I don't think that you do have bigger problems than that, because you obviously need a job and the government isn't allowing you to negotiate a reasonable wage for one.

Oh come on, I thought you were all for personal responsibility. If an able bodied man makes it to age 38 with zero skills and barely any work experience it's the government's fault?

 

[Big Fitz]

Fact is, the neighbor is screwing this girl out of the two bucks an hour she should probably get for doing the job. Whose fault is that? The government's for including a minimum wage exemption for exactly this situation, the neighbor's for his ignorance (or willingness to use her), or the girl's for agreeing to work for free? Who benefits?

Actually both benefit. The job gets done at a price the employer deems fair. The employee gets paid for a price they deem fair. Who are we, who are not party to this contract, to say they are not benefitting? Why should someone who is wise in the value of a dollar be forced to pay a foolish rate for a job that is not worth it.

The girls example is outstanding in that it illustrates a menial task of watering plants, that should have zero skill knowledge needed outside of maybe reading basic instructions and knowing how much water a 'cup' is. The job may take only 15-30 minutes, but yet some third party states she is being cheated if she is paid less than minimum wage for her time. Both parties agree that the job is not worth minimum wage and agree to a verbal contract to do the work for less and both are happy.

The fact that another neighbor wants her to water the plants and is willing to pay a higher wage is fine too. Maybe she can do both. After all, the job isn't very long for the first place. There's no reason why they have to interfere with each other. But let's also say that amount STILL isn't minimum wage. let's say she got paid 4 dollars from the first job and 7 from the second while the minimum wage is 10 an hour with a mandatory 1 hour pay. She just did 1 job for an hour's work making 11 an hour. Both jobs paid less than minimum but she still made more for the same amount of time.

Who loses here? Nobody except the lazy bastard who maybe told the neighbor "I'm not gonna water your plants for 15 minutes unless you pay minimum wage. He's the only loser here for he gets nothing.

There is no right to a 'living wage'. There is only the right to freely negotiate work for pay for your benefit as you see fit to earn without interference from others on the value you place on your labor.

hah... you know what else? This illustrates the unfair advantage of subsidized labor as well. The girl can afford to work for sub minimum wages because her lifestyle is subsidized by her parents. Joe next door trying to make ends meet for example, would not be able to do this type of work because he would not be able to pay expenses on his lifestyle, and he can easily be underbid by those who have their expenses taken care of by an outside source of income. Instead Joe next door would have to pass on this job for it is both not worth higher payment or longer hours to support him, and the market is met by those who do not need to be paid as much to meet their expenses. Therefore, no one is being cheated for it is a job market that Joe cannot participate in for it would never meet his financial needs. In this manner, nobody is cheated and we also show how subsidized vendors can underbid and skew the market place.

Now if the little girl wasn't there, and these people need someone to water their plants, they may look to finding other ways to water their plants, like time release waterglobes or some sort of automatic sprinkler. In this case, there is some minor to major capital outlay at the beginning of say 30 dollars and suddenly the plant watering 'industry' in this example vanishes all together, leaving no market for Joe or anyone else to bid his services in. After 3 uses of this system, it has paid for itself in use and then the rest is savings of capital to the plant owners who never have to worry about paying someone to take care of their plants again.

Now, you can start making the "it's not fair" argument, but that fails on it's face too. It is also not fair to force a plant owner to overpay for services that can be negotiated cheaply and employ someone for what they feel is fair, OR prevent them from buying labor saving equipment like water globes to eliminate the need to hire someone. You are infringing on their enlightened self interest in which to save themselves money and still complete a necessary task. This is called increasing productivity as well.

When people yowl about fairness, they often forget you need to be fair to the person with money and a job that needs to be done as well. It's also always to satisfy their own distaste for doing the job, and never really out of actually caring for the individual working for less than what THEY would do the same job for. For instance, if you wanted me to work in a restaurant as a waiter or cook, my going rate is 1 million dollars an hour as a net payment, not gross. Why? Because I hate hate HATE working with food. If you are not willing to pay that much, I won't work in your restaurant no matter how much you beg. Am I being unfair and unreasonable? No. I have set my price in the market. If someone's dumb enough to pay me that to work in his restaurant, you bet I will! I'll be the best damn employee they had for about a month or until he goes bankrupt which should be in about two days if that long. Then I'll be retiring and setting up my trust fund to never work again depending when he ran out of money to pay me.

Wow... quite the economics lesson you are getting. Maybe I should charge for this. Nahhhhhh.... Consider it a free sampler of my wisdom and knowledge for now. I'll make you pay for other stuff later. heh heh heh.

 

[goldcatt]

That's fine, but what you're missing is the fact that FLSA, the Federal minimum wage law, has multiple exemptions from paying the minimum wage for the job she is doing. The "employer" either does not know this, or knows it full well and is using the girl for free labor by lying to her.

If she's agreed to do this for free as a favor to her neighbor, it's one thing. But using it as a "job" to hold up as a prime example of the evils of the minimum wage is ridiculous - since the minimum wage does not apply. Know your subject.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If you're an able bodied man age 38 with no skills and barely any work experience, I'm sorry but you have far bigger problems than trying to negotiate a job paying $4 an hour.

If that's the situation then I don't think that you do have bigger problems than that, because you obviously need a job and the government isn't allowing you to negotiate a reasonable wage for one.

Oh come on, I thought you were all for personal responsibility. If an able bodied man makes it to age 38 with zero skills and barely any work experience it's the government's fault?

That's not what I said. I said it's the government's fault that he can't negotiate a reasonable wage for his employment at Wal-Mart for sweeping the floor. The government has made hiring him not cost effective, so now Wal-Mart won't have anyone to sweep the floor and that man has no job at all. Both parties lose.

 

[goldcatt]

If that's the situation then I don't think that you do have bigger problems than that, because you obviously need a job and the government isn't allowing you to negotiate a reasonable wage for one.

Oh come on, I thought you were all for personal responsibility. If an able bodied man makes it to age 38 with zero skills and barely any work experience it's the government's fault?

That's not what I said. I said it's the government's fault that he can't negotiate a reasonable wage for his employment at Wal-Mart for sweeping the floor. The government has made hiring him not cost effective, so now Wal-Mart won't have anyone to sweep the floor and that man has no job at all. Both parties lose.

But what is the reason he cannot compete for the job available at the prevailing wage? Because he is 38 years old, has "barely" worked, and has not bothered himself to learn any skills. Does that mean he should be rewarded with an artificially limited job at a pittance over somebody who can sweep the floor AND stock shelves AND run a cash register AND has demonstrated he is willing to work, and is therefore worth the wage? Should he be not only rewarded for his laziness but able to drive wages down for his neighbor who has gone out and worked, has bothered to learn skills, has demonstrated he can show up and can contribute more than pushing a broom?

Now if he is not able-bodied or has a mental disability that precludes him from being able to perform work of higher value, it's a different story. But FLSA allows such employees to be exempted from minimum wage requirements in recognition of just what you are describing - they are unable to perform work of higher value but employment at less than minimum wage is better than no employment at all.

 

[Big Fitz]

The ultimate point is if there are ANY exemptions, Minimum wage should be done away with because it acknowledges that there is work that is not worth the value of minimum wage.

 

[goldcatt]

The ultimate point is if there are ANY exemptions, Minimum wage should be done away with because it acknowledges that there is work that is not worth the value of minimum wage.

How so, if it acknowledges that there is work not worth the minimum wage and does not require minimum wage be paid in those circumstances?