1 woman & her purse vs. 3 violent men...no one has a gun...poor woman...

[2aguy]

ergo- gun ownership is no deterent, and certainly not worth the 32,000 gun deaths, 78,000 gun injuries and 300,000 gun crimes we have every year.

Actual research into the subject shows you are wrong...in fact, if you look at the number of times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime, it is irresponsible to keep law abiding citizens from carrying guns for self defense...


Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717

Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")

Obama's CDC...

from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”

"Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year."
As shown in the previous footnote, this study did not use a nationally representative population. To correct for this, Just Facts used the following equation:

As Kleck points out in his paper...

All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year. None of the surveys implied estimates even remotely like the 65,000 to 82,000 figures derived from the NCVS. To date, there has been no confirmation of even the most approximate sort of the NCVS estimates. Indeed, no survey has ever yielded an estimate which is of the same magnitude as those derived from the NCVS.​

 

[Unkotare]

How many of those women who reported a rape were armed at the time?

And once again suicide doesn't count. Who the fuck do you think you are to tell people they can't end their own life if they so choose?

Someone who isn't a libertarian asshole who wants to live in a civilized society?

Allowing someone the right to choose whether they live or die is civilized.

Forcing someone to live because you think they should is not

Thank goodness you're too stupid to have ever been a doctor.

 

[2aguy]

I have lots of examples where a mag limit would save lives.

Actually, no you don't...you make assumptions which have no basis in the reality of an active shooter scenario...that people in the middle of one of these shootings can charge a guy while he is changing magazines, and that people will use the 2 seconds it takes to change a magazine to escape to safety...sorry...you are wrong...

 

[2aguy]

we have 100 stories of the child shooting himself with grandpa's gun

again, do the research, accidents with guns involving children are only 60-70 times a year...vs. 310 million guns in private hands...do the math...

 

[2aguy]

Since almost no guns are ever used to deter rape, usually because most women are raped by people they know, having a gun is meaningless.

Have you read the research...you know every topic you guys bring up usually has all kinds of research into it...rape being one of them...women who use a gun in a rape attack are 2.5 times more likely to keep the rape from happening...

And since women for the longest time have been the group with the least ownership and carrying of guns it is no surprise that it doesn't happen more often...now that more women are realizing that a gun can save their life...we will see fewer women raped...

On guns and rape prevention...

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape

However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes, "Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

So Joe, you are just wrong...and as far as aquaintance rape...a gun works just as well for those...

 

[Brain357]

I have lots of examples where a mag limit would save lives.

Actually, no you don't...you make assumptions which have no basis in the reality of an active shooter scenario...that people in the middle of one of these shootings can charge a guy while he is changing magazines, and that people will use the 2 seconds it takes to change a magazine to escape to safety...sorry...you are wrong...

Giffords shooter was stopped trying to reload. He had a 30 rd mag. If he had been stopped after 10 rds lives would have been saved.

Why do you want to make it easy for the bad guy?

2 secs is a lot of time to get to safety when there are multiple targets. Also it is often longer. Go watch failed reloads on youtube.

 

[2aguy]

Again, why do you anti gunners prefer to see women raped than for them to have a gun to stop the rape...since a gun is the most effective means of stopping the rape...?

 

[Brain357]

Again, why do you anti gunners prefer to see women raped than for them to have a gun to stop the rape...since a gun is the most effective means of stopping the rape...?

Do you work for a gun company?

 

[2aguy]

Giffords shooter was stopped trying to reload. He had a 30 rd mag. If he had been stopped after 10 rds lives would have been saved.

One time...the long Island shooter is 2...when all the others require good guys armed with guns to get to the scene to stop the killing...and they roll in with AR-15s with 30 round magazines...perhaps you should fire off an email to the police union and explain to them they don't need that many bullets when they are trying to stop an active shooter...

Why do you want to make it easy for the bad guy?

I'm the one who wants people to carry guns so when the shooting starts, they don't have to sit there and count how many times the killer has fired, and then time their rush for the 2 seconds it takes to change a magazine...I prefer to allow people like Suzana Gratia Hupp at Luby's Cafe to shoot the killer when they have a shot, which she did....she was just disarmed by law....instead of watching her father charge the attacker and get shot in the chest...

The same for the principal at Sandy Hook...had those administrators been armed...you wouldn't have had to worry about the guy changing magazines...they could have just shot him...right then and there...instead she also rushed the shooter...and was killed for her efforts...

You have your 2 atypical examples...I have my 2 real world examples...

 

[2aguy]

Do you work for a gun company?

No, I do wish I worked for an ammo company...I might get a discount...

 

[Brain357]

Giffords shooter was stopped trying to reload. He had a 30 rd mag. If he had been stopped after 10 rds lives would have been saved.

One time...the long Island shooter is 2...when all the others require good guys armed with guns to get to the scene to stop the killing...and they roll in with AR-15s with 30 round magazines...perhaps you should fire off an email to the police union and explain to them they don't need that many bullets when they are trying to stop an active shooter...

Why do you want to make it easy for the bad guy?

I'm the one who wants people to carry guns so when the shooting starts, they don't have to sit there and count how many times the killer has fired, and then time their rush for the 2 seconds it takes to change a magazine...I prefer to allow people like Suzana Gratia Hupp at Luby's Cafe to shoot the killer when they have a shot, which she did....she was just disarmed by law....instead of watching her father charge the attacker and get shot in the chest...

The same for the principal at Sandy Hook...had those administrators been armed...you wouldn't have had to worry about the guy changing magazines...they could have just shot him...right then and there...instead she also rushed the shooter...and was killed for her efforts...

You have your 2 atypical examples...I have my 2 real world examples...

As shown by real world examples, yours would not have required hi cap magazines to stop the bad guy. They would have had concealed carry guns that hold less than 10. Why do you want the bad guy to have hi cap mags?

Most people don't want to carry. I want to help everyone whether they carry or not. Your plan is useless if nobody there wants to carry.

 

[Brain357]

Do you work for a gun company?

No, I do wish I worked for an ammo company...I might get a discount...

If you did that would explain why you love hi cap magazines even though only the bad guys need them. Hmmmmmm

 

[2aguy]

They would have had concealed carry guns that hold less than 10. Why do you want the bad guy to have hi cap mags?

The bad guys...by law...are not allowed to own guns...they are not allowed to carry guns...they are not allowed to carry guns into gun free zones...they are not allowed to shoot innocent men, women and children....hmmmm....since they are already breaking so many laws...I don't think getting a 30 round magazine will be a real problem for them...even if they aren't legal...and many of these guys plan months in advance...and break the law in aquiring the weapons and equipment in the first place...

You are the one who wants the bad guys to have standard magazines...again...you are lying about Hi capacity magazines...a 100 round drum is a hi capacity magazine...I want the good guys to have more than enough ammo in their gun and on their person to deal with any situation....

And keep in mind...the good guys only shoot what they need...so if they have a standard magazine of 15 rounds...and the threat is stopped...they stop shooting...so their having a standard magazine hurts no one...

 

[Brain357]

They would have had concealed carry guns that hold less than 10. Why do you want the bad guy to have hi cap mags?

The bad guys...by law...are not allowed to own guns...they are not allowed to carry guns...they are not allowed to carry guns into gun free zones...they are not allowed to shoot innocent men, women and children....hmmmm....since they are already breaking so many laws...I don't think getting a 30 round magazine will be a real problem for them...even if they aren't legal...and many of these guys plan months in advance...and break the law in aquiring the weapons and equipment in the first place...

You are the one who wants the bad guys to have standard magazines...again...you are lying about Hi capacity magazines...a 100 round drum is a hi capacity magazine...I want the good guys to have more than enough ammo in their gun and on their person to deal with any situation....

And keep in mind...the good guys only shoot what they need...so if they have a standard magazine of 15 rounds...and the threat is stopped...they stop shooting...so their having a standard magazine hurts no one...

You can't give a single example where a good guy needed more than 10 rds. I have many with bad guys using more to kill innocent people. Limiting mag capacity would save lives.

Concealed carry guns hold less than 10 rds. Only one who will have more is the bad guy.

As I have pointed out to you the mass shooter in ca had 10 rd mags. Proof they all won't bother trying to get larger mags.

 

[Brain357]

Do you work for a gun company?

No, I do wish I worked for an ammo company...I might get a discount...

Why do you think guns are the answer when other countries like Denmark have lower crime rates and hardly any guns? Shouldn't that be a hint more guns isn't the answer? We have the most guns, yet we are far from the lowest crime rates. These things should tell you more guns aren't the answer, just more accidental shootings.

 

[2aguy]

As I have pointed out to you the mass shooter in ca had 10 rd mags. Proof they all won't bother trying to get larger mags.

And proof that it didn't make a difference...no one tackled him as he was reloading...

Why do you think guns are the answer when other countries like Denmark have lower crime rates and hardly any guns?

Because Russia has hardly any guns and a crime rate a lot more than the U.S. We have multiple cultures in democrat controlled inner cities where gangs cause 80% of the murders in the country....show me that Denmark has the same level of gang violence as we do...

Shouldn't that be a hint more guns isn't the answer?

Yeah, except for the actual research that shows that allowing people to carry guns lowers the crime rate....yeah...except for that...

We have the most guns, yet we are far from the lowest crime rates

Russia and Latin American countries have no guns and have higher crime and murder rates than we do....again...explain that...

These things should tell you more guns aren't the answer, just more accidental shootings.

Yeah, again...except for all the research into this topic that proves otherwise...and more gun safety education in grade schools would reduce accidental shootings...but the anti gunners won't let that happen...who really cares about dead children....?

 

[2aguy]

Hmmm...the Canadian Sergeant at Arms used a gun with a 15 round magazine...what a fool...Brain...you should email this guy and tell him to only load one bullet into the gun...that's all it takes...right...

What Pistol Did Sergeant at Arms Kevin Vickers Use to Kill the Canadian Parliament Terrorist - The Truth About Guns

 

[JoeB131]

How about amending the constitution if you want to take away people's rights?

Or we can just get Justices who aren't knuckle dragging neanderthals

 

[JoeB131]

Allowing someone the right to choose whether they live or die is civilized.

Forcing someone to live because you think they should is not

32000 deaths and 78,000 injuries due to your "lifestyle choice".

Enough.

 

[JoeB131]

So Joe, you are just wrong...and as far as aquaintance rape...a gun works just as well for those...

guy, Keck got debunked six ways to Sunday.

And no, unless she's got her gun cocked and locked in her panties, it's usually pretty useless against a guy who knows you and has thought out what he plans to do.