1 in 136 U.S. Residents Behind Bars...

[Annie]

I think it's more related to economic status more than race....

bingo. I've maintained that crime stats and education stats are based on socioeconomic factors. If the population, regardless of race, are middle class, you will find that the assumption of hard work is a given. I live in an area where the median income is over 60k, but there are blacks, hispanics, whites, indians, orientals. It's a townhome complex, a step up. We all want the best for our children, our townhomes are selling for $280k, for 225, we could easily buy a home in a area with a bit lower standard for schools, guess our priorities?

With the priorities comes holding out kids responsible. I've seen this play out, with sports and academics.

The differences aren't by race or religion, but with correctness.

 

[Dr Grump]

bingo. I've maintained that crime stats and education stats are based on socioeconomic factors. If the population, regardless of race, are middle class, you will find that the assumption of hard work is a given. I live in an area where the median income is over 60k, but there are blacks, hispanics, whites, indians, orientals. It's a townhome complex, a step up. We all want the best for our children, our townhomes are selling for $280k, for 225, we could easily buy a home in a area with a bit lower standard for schools, guess our priorities?

With the priorities comes holding out kids responsible. I've seen this play out, with sports and academics.

The differences aren't by race or religion, but with correctness.

I agree...In any capitalistic society there is going to be an underclass, where the majority of crime will come from. It's the size of the underclass that varies from nation to nation.

 

[jillian]

People mocked her for using it? How thick-skinned of them...

Wouldn't worry about it too much. I didn't notice they were doing it. lol.. I'd say there's a high probability of me using it again.

(I'd wink right now, but my smilies still don't work! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)

BTW, I agree with you about an underclass. But I don't think it's about *correctness*, I think its about opportunity, the premium which a child's parent(s) put on education and authority and the available role models in the community. You can't expect a child to place a value on education if the *successful* members of his/her community make their money illegally.

 

[Annie]

I agree...In any capitalistic society there is going to be an underclass, where the majority of crime will come from. It's the size of the underclass that varies from nation to nation.

In a non-capitalistic society, there will be a small if existant middle class. Most will be rich or poor, poor being defined as starvation ready. Anyone arguing against capitalism, had best be ready to address the problems of alternatives.

 

[William Joyce]

bingo. I've maintained that crime stats and education stats are based on socioeconomic factors.

This is cart before the horse. Or, cart-cart: crime and education statistics ARE socioeconomic factors. But if conservatives are saying that "bad values" make for black underperformance, how is this any different from the liberal argument "bad neighborhoods" make for high rates of black crime?

There are black African nations with "free" markets and white Nordic countries with practically socialist economies. Yet look who performs better. Africa doesn't make Saabs, people, and it's not because they don't have the right schooling or family values or because of "corruption."

Race is what's driving it. Different racial groups are biologically, genetically, to-the-DNA-core DIFFERENT, in terms of intelligence and behavior. Blacks behave the way they do because evolution programmed them that way. It makes for survival in the African landscape, but not in a seasonal or winter climate like ours. Work ethics come from thousands of years of development in cold climates, not Bill Cosby declaring you should work harder.

 

[Dr Grump]

In a non-capitalistic society, there will be a small if existant middle class. Most will be rich or poor, poor being defined as starvation ready. Anyone arguing against capitalism, had best be ready to address the problems of alternatives.

I'm for a mixture of both. Scandanavian countries in general are a lot more socialist than most, yet they are always near the top of OECD lists when it comes to workforce performance, standard of living, incarceration rates etc...It is getting that mixture right that is the tricky part...

 

[Annie]

This is cart before the horse. Or, cart-cart: crime and education statistics ARE socioeconomic factors. But if conservatives are saying that "bad values" make for black underperformance, how is this any different from the liberal argument "bad neighborhoods" make for high rates of black crime?

There are black African nations with "free" markets and white Nordic countries with practically socialist economies. Yet look who performs better. Africa doesn't make Saabs, people, and it's not because they don't have the right schooling or family values or because of "corruption."

Race is what's driving it. Different racial groups are biologically, genetically, to-the-DNA-core DIFFERENT, in terms of intelligence and behavior. Blacks behave the way they do because evolution programmed them that way. It makes for survival in the African landscape, but not in a seasonal or winter climate like ours. Work ethics come from thousands of years of development in cold climates, not Bill Cosby declaring you should work harder.

Blahh. No doubt the African dark is not making Volvos, etc. However, they are making jewelry that is selling. If not for the subsidies, very doubtful Germany would be selling Volvos, VW's ects. Now Darkest Africa, they would still be selling their jewelry. Kick off.

 

[dilloduck]

Wouldn't worry about it too much. I didn't notice they were doing it. lol.. I'd say there's a high probability of me using it again.

(I'd wink right now, but my smilies still don't work! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)

BTW, I agree with you about an underclass. But I don't think it's about *correctness*, I think its about opportunity, the premium which a child's parent(s) put on education and authority and the available role models in the community. You can't expect a child to place a value on education if the *successful* members of his/her community make their money illegally.

So whats you recommendation to reduce black crime? Put them all into nicer neighborhoods?

 

[jillian]

So whats you recommendation to reduce black crime? Put them all into nicer neighborhoods?

Reducing poverty is a start. But making welfare a leg up instead of a hand out would be a good start. Job training programs and daycare for people who need to be brought into the work force is another. All studies seem to point to Head Start as making a huge difference in terms of how children view education and authority. So perhaps adequate funding for Head Start is a good baby step. But bemoaning that it's "black" crime, when as has been observed in this thread, it's really a function of socio-economic status, is not a way to address the problem.

 

[dilloduck]

Reducing poverty is a start. But making welfare a leg up instead of a hand out would be a good start. Job training programs and daycare for people who need to be brought into the work force is another. All studies seem to point to Head Start as making a huge difference in terms of how children view education and authority. So perhaps adequate funding for Head Start is a good baby step. But bemoaning that it's "black" crime, when as has been observed in this thread, it's really a function of socio-economic status, is not a way to address the problem.

How do kids get such a crappy view of education and authority in the first place? Because they were poor?

 

[jillian]

How do kids get such a crappy view of education and authority in the first place? Because they were poor?

You know the answer to that. It's passed down from generation to generation. And while each generation does better than the one before, there is still a cycle of poverty that needs to be broken.

If it were just a function of color, we wouldn't have a rapidly growing black middle class and black upper class. Thing is, what poor kids are seeing is that their "fortune" lies in selling drugs, getting a recording deal or being able to drop a ball into a hoop. They have to see success come from other areas. You've already seen what the prison rates are for minorities. That leaves black society matriarchal. There are few role models for young men.

In other words, the cycle has to stop somewhere. And if we have the ability to see the puzzle pieces that can help do that by helping people better themselves instead of just tossing money at them (which I think ultimately does no favors since it implies they aren't capable of making it themselves), then we should.

 

[dilloduck]

You know the answer to that. It's passed down from generation to generation. And while each generation does better than the one before, there is still a cycle of poverty that needs to be broken.

If it were just a function of color, we wouldn't have a rapidly growing black middle class and black upper class. Thing is, what poor kids are seeing is that their "fortune" lies in selling drugs, getting a recording deal or being able to drop a ball into a hoop. They have to see success come from other areas. You've already seen what the prison rates are for minorities. That leaves black society matriarchal. There are few role models for young men.

In other words, the cycle has to stop somewhere. And if we have the ability to see the puzzle pieces that can help do that by helping people better themselves instead of just tossing money at them (which I think ultimately does no favors since it implies they aren't capable of making it themselves), then we should.

It would be nice if the cycle had to stop but it's more likely that we will have to force it to stop. Do we make Head Start mandatory or do we operate on a "if we build it they will come" mindset? How much does welfare encourage people to remain where they are? How come poor white kids don't see thier fortune in crime and welfare checks?

 

[jillian]

It would be nice if the cycle had to stop but it's more likely that we will have to force it to stop. Do we make Head Start mandatory or do we operate on a "if we build it they will come" mindset? How much does welfare encourage people to remain where they are? How come poor white kids don't see thier fortune in crime and welfare checks?

Poor white kids aren't so different. Largest segment on welfare in this country is white, single mothers.

It's about poverty, not race.

 

[William Joyce]

Blahh. No doubt the African dark is not making Volvos, etc. However, they are making jewelry that is selling. If not for the subsidies, very doubtful Germany would be selling Volvos, VW's ects. Now Darkest Africa, they would still be selling their jewelry. Kick off.

A woman of your intelligence cannot possibly be suggesting that the only difference between German automotive engineering and African jewelry is "subsidies."

 

[dilloduck]

Poor white kids aren't so different. Largest segment on welfare in this country is white, single mothers.

It's about poverty, not race.

So why isn't there the same percentage of whites in prison?