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This is a discussion on Why wouldn't Jesus... within the Religion and Ethics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi want us to structure our society to help ...


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  #496 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?
Anyone who uses a religious argument to advocate policy is beyond moronic. We are not a theocracy.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Let me get this straight. It is your believe that Jesus would not want us to structure a society to provide benefits to the poor. Is that correct and if so your reason is because he never said to do so?
I'll go more slowly: Your OP is using religious belief to advocate for policy.

Anyone in the USA who uses religion to advocate for policy is beyond moronic.

That makes you/your argument beyond moronic.
It would be Moronic if she wasn't simply trying to Anger People with Faith by Abusing their Religion and Book...

It's what she is.



peace...
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  #497 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post

You've avoided answering the question in the OP but thanks for playing!
You don't believe there to be a Christ.
Therefore no answer I give will break through your incorrectly preconceived notions of what HE would teach.

Jesus taught us how to "structure" our hearts and our selves in order to prepare for His Kingdom.
God's "society" is all we should be concerned about.

Helping the poor and down-trodden is each individual's responsibility.
Not "society's".

I'm sorry if these answers don't fit your mold.
Doesn't make them less true, however.



You have your preconceived notions and I see that they are the only things that matter to you.

Oh, well.
No "notions" to it.
It's just what the Bible teaches.

You started this thread with the opposite premise and expect it to stand against the Word.
It's just not going to happen.


I really wish non-believers would learn the Book they try so hard to debunk.
All they manage to do is address sound-bytes of misinformation that is spouted by the fringe of the fringe.

There is such an animal as a secure Christian that doesn't have to resort to attacks to defend their faith.

Rare is the Christian-started thread asking atheists to defend their non-existent book.
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  #498 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 03:54 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post

You don't believe there to be a Christ.
Therefore no answer I give will break through your incorrectly preconceived notions of what HE would teach.

Jesus taught us how to "structure" our hearts and our selves in order to prepare for His Kingdom.
God's "society" is all we should be concerned about.

Helping the poor and down-trodden is each individual's responsibility.
Not "society's".

I'm sorry if these answers don't fit your mold.
Doesn't make them less true, however.



You have your preconceived notions and I see that they are the only things that matter to you.

Oh, well.
No "notions" to it.
It's just what the Bible teaches.

You started this thread with the opposite premise and expect it to stand against the Word.
It's just not going to happen.


I really wish non-believers would learn the Book they try so hard to debunk.
All they manage to do is address sound-bytes of misinformation that is spouted by the fringe of the fringe.

There is such an animal as a secure Christian that doesn't have to resort to attacks to defend their faith.

Rare is the Christian-started thread asking atheists to defend their non-existent book.
Your "notion" is that I'm an unbeliever.

Nothing in my OP is "standing against the Word."

Try reading for comprehension.
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  #499 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post


You have your preconceived notions and I see that they are the only things that matter to you.

Oh, well.
No "notions" to it.
It's just what the Bible teaches.

You started this thread with the opposite premise and expect it to stand against the Word.
It's just not going to happen.


I really wish non-believers would learn the Book they try so hard to debunk.
All they manage to do is address sound-bytes of misinformation that is spouted by the fringe of the fringe.

There is such an animal as a secure Christian that doesn't have to resort to attacks to defend their faith.

Rare is the Christian-started thread asking atheists to defend their non-existent book.
Your "notion" is that I'm an unbeliever.

Nothing in my OP is "standing against the Word."

Try reading for comprehension.
The basis of your OP presumes that the Messiah concerns Himself with the "structure of society".
He cares about the individual's heart.

Unless you can find a red-lettered quote in the Bible where He addresses societal issues.
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  #500 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post

No "notions" to it.
It's just what the Bible teaches.

You started this thread with the opposite premise and expect it to stand against the Word.
It's just not going to happen.


I really wish non-believers would learn the Book they try so hard to debunk.
All they manage to do is address sound-bytes of misinformation that is spouted by the fringe of the fringe.

There is such an animal as a secure Christian that doesn't have to resort to attacks to defend their faith.

Rare is the Christian-started thread asking atheists to defend their non-existent book.
Your "notion" is that I'm an unbeliever.

Nothing in my OP is "standing against the Word."

Try reading for comprehension.
The basis of your OP presumes that the Messiah concerns Himself with the "structure of society".
He cares about the individual's heart.

Unless you can find a red-lettered quote in the Bible where He addresses societal issues.
If Jesus wasn't Specific then Ravir just makes shit up about what Jesus stood for...



peace...
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  #501 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post

No "notions" to it.
It's just what the Bible teaches.

You started this thread with the opposite premise and expect it to stand against the Word.
It's just not going to happen.


I really wish non-believers would learn the Book they try so hard to debunk.
All they manage to do is address sound-bytes of misinformation that is spouted by the fringe of the fringe.

There is such an animal as a secure Christian that doesn't have to resort to attacks to defend their faith.

Rare is the Christian-started thread asking atheists to defend their non-existent book.
Your "notion" is that I'm an unbeliever.

Nothing in my OP is "standing against the Word."

Try reading for comprehension.
The basis of your OP presumes that the Messiah concerns Himself with the "structure of society".
He cares about the individual's heart.

Unless you can find a red-lettered quote in the Bible where He addresses societal issues.
Okay, I see what you're saying now.

My thread was in response to another that made the claim that Jesus wouldn't want us to structure our society to help the poor. Maybe my question was framed badly

But my overall point was that Jesus would want us to help the poor and that coming together as a society to do so wouldn't be something he would frown upon.
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  #502 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:19 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sky Dancer View Post
What about it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than to pass a camel through the eye of a needle?

I'd say that's definitely true of the banking establishment and corporate greed. Wealth produces luxury, dissipation, and vice, avarice, covetousness, fraud, and oppression.

Corporations have now achieved the rights of individual citizens. That means corporations now completely control national elections.



If enough people realize how monstrous is the policy of equating fictitious corporate “persons” with real people, then perhaps gradually public opinion will force a change in the Supreme Court’s attitude of the kind we have seen before. After all, there used to be an adage, the Supreme Court follows the election returns.
Corporate Personhood and 14th Amendment Rights | Crisis Magazine

I find it amusing the people that have no room for the Bible in their personal lives (or want to re-write it to accept their person sins) want to use it to beat Christians into submitting to "their" will.

The "eye of a needle" was a gate in the wall of Jerusalem. It was a small gate that was available after dark for travelers. Since camels can carry over 1000 pounds, the camels could not fit thru the gate while packing worldly goods (can you see where this is going?). For travelers with lots of luggage (baggage), this meant removing all the packed possessions from the camel to get the camel thru the gate. In the same way, the Lord wants us to concentrate on our spiritual selves and remove the baggage of this world to get to heaven.

Yeshua was not here for "this world". He did not encourage people to party 24/7. He wanted them to understand that if you take all the best from this world and wrap it up in a bow, it can't touch having a single moment with His Father (that is why when Satan offered to give Him the kingdoms of the world, Yeshua refused). The Father's love is so great, it puts you into a state of euphoria for as long as you are in His presence.
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  #503 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Barb View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sky Dancer View Post

Corrupt systems. Like the moneychangers defiling the temple. Jesus most certainly intended a condemnation of business as usual in the temple. Jesus obviously condemned the commercialization of the sacrificial operation, and the fact that for so many people what was originally intended (in the Law of Moses) as the means by which people get right with God, had become for many simply a job and for the leaders a means to get rich at the expense of the people who come to the temple to offer sacrifices.
Jesus' teachings say to not be concerned with the ways of the world.
His concern is for PEOPLE.

You can try to make it as impersonal as you wish, but it would be the actions of some of the PEOPLE on Wall St that Jesus would have issue with.

It's our Heart he wants, not our interest rates!
Really? Would a being like him do what he did with the fishes and the wine be more concerned with local commerce, or that the masses were fed and happy? Was he killed because he performed a few "individual" acts of divine intervention, or because he challenged the status quo? Did he not challenge WHY people were poor? HOW they were cheated and misled? Who cheated and misled them?

Christ challenged the accepted teachings and the values those teachings supported during his time. There was a TON of power threatened by those challenges. THAT is why the power structure wanted him dead.

Quote:
“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus
Christ was a thinking person. He paid with his life. The story has been played out every century humans have walked on this earth. Someday, we'll stop killing our best. I hope.
And yet... here we are, killing "our best". The people that produce and live decent, humble lives are being told they must support those that do not respect the Lord, or a days labor. This society is killing them every day, the same as they tortured the Lord. Can you imagine what it is like to see a person that came into the world whose father doesn't care enough to support, whose mother did not get the education to support the child before starting the hard journey of adulthood take the resources from a person that did the responsible things, that planned for their future, to watch it be snatched away from them because the "mob" wants more from them? More of their savings, more of their earnings, more of their time, while their children go without the great education, go without the time with their parent(s), because they have to take an additional job or work longer hours to pay the tax man and keep their family out of the red. They have no room to get sick, no room to miss work, no room to be laid off. They are being tortured every day, and people like you are voting for the thumb screws to be tightened. You hold yourself as one "in the know", but wisdom eludes you. You are part of the mob, screaming, "crucify him, crucify him, whether you admit it or not.
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  #504 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post

Your "notion" is that I'm an unbeliever.

Nothing in my OP is "standing against the Word."

Try reading for comprehension.
The basis of your OP presumes that the Messiah concerns Himself with the "structure of society".
He cares about the individual's heart.

Unless you can find a red-lettered quote in the Bible where He addresses societal issues.
Okay, I see what you're saying now.

My thread was in response to another that made the claim that Jesus wouldn't want us to structure our society to help the poor. Maybe my question was framed badly

But my overall point was that Jesus would want us to help the poor and that coming together as a society to do so wouldn't be something he would frown upon.
There is a difference between us coming together to help the poor and us using government to rob people and claim we are helping the poor.

I dont know why that is so difficult to understand.
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  #505 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by logical4u View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sky Dancer View Post
What about it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than to pass a camel through the eye of a needle?

I'd say that's definitely true of the banking establishment and corporate greed. Wealth produces luxury, dissipation, and vice, avarice, covetousness, fraud, and oppression.

Corporations have now achieved the rights of individual citizens. That means corporations now completely control national elections.



If enough people realize how monstrous is the policy of equating fictitious corporate “persons” with real people, then perhaps gradually public opinion will force a change in the Supreme Court’s attitude of the kind we have seen before. After all, there used to be an adage, the Supreme Court follows the election returns.
Corporate Personhood and 14th Amendment Rights | Crisis Magazine

I find it amusing the people that have no room for the Bible in their personal lives (or want to re-write it to accept their person sins) want to use it to beat Christians into submitting to "their" will.

The "eye of a needle" was a gate in the wall of Jerusalem. It was a small gate that was available after dark for travelers. Since camels can carry over 1000 pounds, the camels could not fit thru the gate while packing worldly goods (can you see where this is going?). For travelers with lots of luggage (baggage), this meant removing all the packed possessions from the camel to get the camel thru the gate. In the same way, the Lord wants us to concentrate on our spiritual selves and remove the baggage of this world to get to heaven.

Yeshua was not here for "this world". He did not encourage people to party 24/7. He wanted them to understand that if you take all the best from this world and wrap it up in a bow, it can't touch having a single moment with His Father (that is why when Satan offered to give Him the kingdoms of the world, Yeshua refused). The Father's love is so great, it puts you into a state of euphoria for as long as you are in His presence.
Actually, that interpretation of the "eye of a needle" is completely fabricated. Though it sure as heck makes a great sermon.
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  #506 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:46 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post


You have your preconceived notions and I see that they are the only things that matter to you.

Oh, well.
No "notions" to it.
It's just what the Bible teaches.

You started this thread with the opposite premise and expect it to stand against the Word.
It's just not going to happen.


I really wish non-believers would learn the Book they try so hard to debunk.
All they manage to do is address sound-bytes of misinformation that is spouted by the fringe of the fringe.

There is such an animal as a secure Christian that doesn't have to resort to attacks to defend their faith.

Rare is the Christian-started thread asking atheists to defend their non-existent book.
Your "notion" is that I'm an unbeliever.

Nothing in my OP is "standing against the Word."

Try reading for comprehension.
Why wouldn't Jesus...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

Yeshua said there would always be poor. He was about taking care of the widows and orphans. How can you structure a society to help the poor, better than the one we have, where each person can become any class they choose to become? There are no class lines, no caste system, no royalty. You can become whatever you choose to be, based on your ability to work, spend frugally, and plan for the future. If you happen to be blessed, that success can increase, exponentially.

Proverbs has a lot against "socialist"/"communist" societies. One of the lines that stuck in my head, was, "do not put your money into a shared purse". This is exactly what society is doing to "help the poor". Most of that money never gets to the "poor". It goes to the administrators (liberals, that want to tell everyone how to live their lives). The poor get a small fraction. The corrupt leaders keep the status quo going because they are getting wealthy off the "poor". How long have we been doing "welfare"? Are their less poor? What does that say to the "intellectual elites"? How is the "middle class doin'? Have you noticed the middle class is slipping into the poverty zone (due to high taxes, and lack of opportunity to work for some (evil) rich person)?

Yeshua told us to confront the sinner. Why don't you people that want to use the Bible to manipulate Christians EVER talk about that? Why do you want to take a few phrases and twist them to your purposes while ignoring the rest of His life and the Bible? Tell us, why do you vote for the absolutely corrupt people for office, where they gain status and power to go into a corporation, and then, THEN, you cry the corporations are filled with greedy, no good managers? You put them their, enjoy you Pontius Pilates.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:15 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by hortysir View Post

The basis of your OP presumes that the Messiah concerns Himself with the "structure of society".
He cares about the individual's heart.

Unless you can find a red-lettered quote in the Bible where He addresses societal issues.
Okay, I see what you're saying now.

My thread was in response to another that made the claim that Jesus wouldn't want us to structure our society to help the poor. Maybe my question was framed badly

But my overall point was that Jesus would want us to help the poor and that coming together as a society to do so wouldn't be something he would frown upon.
There is a difference between us coming together to help the poor and us using government to rob people and claim we are helping the poor.

I dont know why that is so difficult to understand.
Rob?
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  #508 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2012, 04:38 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post

Okay, I see what you're saying now.

My thread was in response to another that made the claim that Jesus wouldn't want us to structure our society to help the poor. Maybe my question was framed badly

But my overall point was that Jesus would want us to help the poor and that coming together as a society to do so wouldn't be something he would frown upon.
There is a difference between us coming together to help the poor and us using government to rob people and claim we are helping the poor.

I dont know why that is so difficult to understand.
Rob?
For someone who Beleives that Collective Charity without the Individual's Approval can Exist Honestly, you wouldn't Understand the Concept.

You wouldn't Hesitate to take someone else's Money towards your own Agenda.



peace...
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:13 AM
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Your "notion" is that I'm an unbeliever.

Nothing in my OP is "standing against the Word."

Try reading for comprehension.
The basis of your OP presumes that the Messiah concerns Himself with the "structure of society".
He cares about the individual's heart.

Unless you can find a red-lettered quote in the Bible where He addresses societal issues.
Okay, I see what you're saying now.

My thread was in response to another that made the claim that Jesus wouldn't want us to structure our society to help the poor. Maybe my question was framed badly

But my overall point was that Jesus would want us to help the poor and that coming together as a society to do so wouldn't be something he would frown upon.
Absolutely.
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Old 06-19-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post

Okay, I see what you're saying now.

My thread was in response to another that made the claim that Jesus wouldn't want us to structure our society to help the poor. Maybe my question was framed badly

But my overall point was that Jesus would want us to help the poor and that coming together as a society to do so wouldn't be something he would frown upon.
There is a difference between us coming together to help the poor and us using government to rob people and claim we are helping the poor.

I dont know why that is so difficult to understand.
Rob?
Yes. Rob. To take money or property by the use of force.
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