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Gunny's Thread on Religion

This is a discussion on Gunny's Thread on Religion within the Religion and Ethics forums, part of the US Discussion category; I'm giving fair warning straight - up. Any flames, insults or derailments will be deleted and/or moved. Call it what you want, but there you ...


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Old 06-18-2009, 03:24 PM
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Gunny's Thread on Religion

I'm giving fair warning straight - up. Any flames, insults or derailments will be deleted and/or moved. Call it what you want, but there you have it. I'm sick and tired of zealots destroying religious threads so no one else can even have a discussion.

Anyone who has a problem with that, tough.

Okay, discuss ....
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:26 PM
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I only have two words to say on the matter:

Whoo hoo!
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:37 PM
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if religion works for you and it gives you inner peace helps you through the day,helps you through times of adversity and bad times....bless ya...go for it....i just dont like those who think because they believe in something and someone else may not,they are somehow better,and dont seem to mind letting those people know.....OR the religious zealots,who go WAY overboard with it,and carry it to the extreme....
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:47 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Harry Dresden View Post
if religion works for you and it gives you inner peace helps you through the day,helps you through times of adversity and bad times....bless ya...go for it....i just dont like those who think because they believe in something and someone else may not,they are somehow better,and dont seem to mind letting those people know.....OR the religious zealots,who go WAY overboard with it,and carry it to the extreme....
I mostly agree. I don't like religious zealots anymore than I do anti-religion zealots. One believes in believing and one believes in disbelieving. I've heard a lot of arguments -- mostly dismissals and/or insults that disbelieving is not a belief.

I disagree. If you ACTIVELY are pushing your belief that there is no God, or whatever anyone worships, then it is a belief. One has to choose to believe or disbelieve. If one goes so far as to hate religion and have to say so, one most certainly is as ardent a zealot as a revival tent preacher.

I really don't care what others believe. My whole issue with the topic is that no one seems to be able to have a decent conversation about religion on this board without being attacked. Granted, we're pretty lax here, but as of late, this subforum has gotten completely out of control. This isn't the Flame Zone II.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:47 PM
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I'm of course an apostate and an atheist, but I don't believe most secular individuals have an interest in interfering with the personal beliefs of the religious if they merely remained personal beliefs, just as most secular individuals don't have an interest in interfering with the beliefs of those who embrace astrology or other superstition not based on reason. It's because the beliefs of the religious exert an undue influence over mainstream society (we might still have a World Trade Center if not for religion) that objections are raised. As noted:



I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:48 PM
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Moved From: The Logical, Rational, and Reasonable Debate About Religion: No Insults Allowed Threa

Quote: Originally Posted by Coloradomtnman View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Big Black Dog View Post
Like I said earlier, God is a hard item to sell because he is not somebody you can physically see, touch, or openly question. I have been where you are and I understand your position. I don't agree with it but your opinion is just as valid as mine. We just see things differently. I believe in God. I don't stand on the street corner and brow beat people with my beliefs. I do, however, voice my opinion BUT my opinion is no more valid than your opinion. Your lack of belief is not threatening to me. Some christians come completely unglued if you look them in the eye and tell them what they believe is a crock of crap. I don't think those type of christians are as tolerant as they should be. Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.
Well, that is a good attitude, BBD. I respect that you can see things that way.

I don't blame Christians, or anyone for that matter, for getting angry if I were to look them in the eye and say "What you believe is a crock of crap!" That's just rude. And I'm guilty of doing it and guilty of wondering why they got so angry when I did it (must be because they're so insecure in their beliefs! - hey, naivete, what can I say?).

And I wouldn't mind Christians believing anything they wanted to so long as they didn't harm people. And for the most part that is the case. But the judgement, the self-righteousness that is naturally a part of monotheism (and you even demonstrated it yourself:
Quote: Originally Posted by Big Black Dog View Post
Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.
), the discrimination against those who do not fit in with their world view (i.e. homosexuals and atheists, or people of different religious faiths) is something that profoundly bothers me.

I think we are all one. Not in a weird, new-age, crystal power sense, but in a very real, scientifically logical sense. We are all literally star dust. What I see in others, I see in me. I'm sick of hearing how liberals aren't tolerant because they don't tolerate Christians. That is an oversimplification and a mischaracterization. Liberals accept all religious faiths. We don't tolerate intolerance which comes with many organized religions. We don't tolerate the intolerance of homosexuals, an entire group of people who are not accurately characterized when described as sick and perverted, or equated with pedophiles or criminals.

Just like your statement above: Christains aren't perfect. Just forgiven. Why are you forgiven when I have no choice but not to believe? God doesn't forgive me for being unable to choose to believe that his son died, was resurrected and went to Heaven where He is a big VIP? I'm not directing this as an insult at you or in a personal way, but I see it as a side-effect of monotheism: we are God's chosen ones and everybody, quite literally, be damned.

And that's another reason why I don't subscribe to the belief. Cause I see flaws in it, and if it is the one, true way then I don't see why there would be any flaws in it at all.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:48 PM
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if religion works for you and it gives you inner peace helps you through the day,helps you through times of adversity and bad times....bless ya...go for it....i just dont like those who think because they believe in something and someone else may not,they are somehow better,and dont seem to mind letting those people know.....OR the religious zealots,who go WAY overboard with it,and carry it to the extreme....
I know what you mean. I know some of those "holier than thou" kind of folks. It's a turn off. I don't stand on street corners and try to convert the world into my way of thinking. I also don't like the so-called "score keepers" at church. These are the folks who count heads every Sunday and wonder where you are if you aren't there. There have always been those that raise a large amount of hell on Saturday night and on Sunday morning suddenly become a full-blown saint. Those folks are a turn off too. Religion to me is more of a personal thing. I go to church when I feel the need to go and I toss money into the pot to support the church. However, I am not there every time they open the door.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:50 PM
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I'm reposting this from the "logical, rational, and reasonable debate" thread:

I think this might be a good place to pose a few questions to the religious people who are participating in this discussion.

So, for Christians, it's a given that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah and died for their sins (meaning: all those who are not Christian, even Jews and Muslims who believe in the same god) are going to hell, which is a place where they will be separated from God and be tortured with fire and brimstone for all of eternity (although there are some Biblical scholars who believe that the Bible actually teaches that nonbelievers will be completely destroyed, but that's a whole other discussion). Please correct me if any of that is wrong.

It is also a given that God created man in his own image, and loves and takes a special interest in each and every one of the people he created. God's love for man is emphasized throughout Christianity.

Now, the word of God is revealed to us through the Bible. As God no longer makes his presence known the way he did in Biblical days, the Bible is the only direct communication we have from God. It is his word, written by him through man, and contains all the information we need in order to know what it takes to be saved. (Again, please correct me if any of this is wrong)

Here are some facts about the Bible and about the world today, from my understanding: the Bible was written (in installments) about two millenia ago, in a particular language (Hebrew) to a particular group of people. There is a story in the Bible about the Tower of Babel, in which God punishes mankind for trying to build a tower tall enough to reach Heaven by scattering them across the earth and splitting their languages. So, according to the Bible, the reason that we have about 7,000 different languages spoken on the planet today is because God made it so as a punishment. Because the Bible must be translated into so many different languages from its original Hebrew, and since the Hebrew language has changed and evolved so much in the last two thousand years, as all languages do, many things in the Bible are lost, confused, or the meaning changed in translation.

So, these are the questions I have for you:

God created us all and loves us all immensely. Any of us who do not believe in him will be doomed to suffer for all of eternity. Is there a way to reconcile those two ideas? Is eternal horrendous suffering a punishment that is fitting of the crime of not believing in the existence of God? Why would a loving God base the salvation of his creations on their belief in him, rather than their character or morality or some other criteria?

Also: is it fair that since the punishment for nonbelief is eternal torment, God made it so difficult to come to believe in him? Would he not be morally obligated to make his existence painfully obvious to each and every one of us, if the consequences for not believing in him are so severe?

I am not asking these questions as some sort of challenge; these are legitimate questions I have about Christianity and they are some of the main reasons why I do not believe. My mind is open to the existence of a higher power...I just don't believe that the higher power in question is the one I desrcribed above. But my mind isn't even completely closed to THAT possibility, since I acknowledge it's possible that there are things I don't fully understand...which is why I'm posing these questions, in hopes that someone can give me a good explanation for the discrepancies I feel I'm seeing here.

And, again, if I am wrong in any of those above assertions, please correct me. If I'm going to believe or disbelieve in something, I want to know the absolute truth about that something first.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:56 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by RodISHI View Post
God is a spirit.
'Prove it
Quote:
Can you measure a spirit?
Perhaps, once you demonstrate what it is

Quote: Originally Posted by Big Black Dog View Post
Belief in God is based solely on faith.
and therefore not on reason or logical deductions.

Quote:
agree that you cannot "prove" that God exists BUT can you prove that God does not exist solely on your word alone
You bear the burden of proof. Prove I am not god. i might as well say to prove that there's no such thing ads the tooth fairy. Prove that Krishna and FSM do not exist.

Quote:
You can neither prove or disprove the existance of God. It's all based on faith.
Then the religious should stop acting like it's based on reason or any kind of intelligent thought process.

Quote: Originally Posted by RodISHI View Post
[First I think it would be helpful if you understand that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
Prove it

Quote:
Since God is a spirit
You never did demonstrate that

Quote:
then one needs to understand that there is a spirit that speaks and teaches about God.
Prove it

Quote:
A soul can be in hell
Prove that hell and the soul exist, and that a soul can be in hell

Quote:
and the person can be outside the gate.
Prove it

Quote:
The flesh is where we live in this world which is God's garden. The soul is created in heaven.
Proof? Demonstrate that your assertions are valid.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.
It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason. Seems like everybody thinks their religion is "the only one" and everybody else is a heathen. That is the one thing that has always puzzled me about religion. Every major religion professes that if you don't believe their doctrine that you won't make it into heaven. Ok, if this is true, who has the right rule book? I find more comfort in what my Grandmother used to say about there will be some of all in God's heaven... But back to all of the killing in the name of God. All of the major religions are guilty of it. Too bad. It's a shame world history has tossed this at us all.
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:03 PM
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:04 PM
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nd I wouldn't mind Christians believing anything they wanted to so long as they didn't harm people. And for the most part that is the case. But the judgement, the self-righteousness that is naturally a part of monotheism (and you even demonstrated it yourself:
Yeah, I have a tendency to be pretty strong on what I believe and don't believe. It's like the folks that drive Fords and think Chevy drivers are insane and vice versa... I hope I don't come across as "self-righeous" because Lord knows I have my full share of faults... Remember when you point your finger at somebody that you have three fingers pointing back at you.
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Big Black Dog View Post
Quote:
I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.
It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason. Seems like everybody thinks their religion is "the only one" and everybody else is a heathen. That is the one thing that has always puzzled me about religion. Every major religion professes that if you don't believe their doctrine that you won't make it into heaven. Ok, if this is true, who has the right rule book? I find more comfort in what my Grandmother used to say about there will be some of all in God's heaven... But back to all of the killing in the name of God. All of the major religions are guilty of it. Too bad. It's a shame world history has tossed this at us all.
I agree with you, and that's one of the main reasons I argue against religious belief, because it can be harmful when in the wrong hands...and it seems like there are a lot of wrong hands out there, doesn't it?

I like your way of looking at it, that "there will be some of all in God's heaven"...I find a lot more comfort in that too. But at the same time, if that's the case, then since all the major religions put forth that if you don't believe their doctrine you won't get to heaven, can you believe in one of those religions and still believe in that ideal? In other words, if you believe that anyone who believes in God can make it to Heaven, no matter what their religion, can you still profess yourself a Christian, since Christian doctrine explicitly states that those who do not accept Jesus Christ will NOT make it to Heaven? I'm asking because I know a lot of religious moderates accept both these ideas, and they seem contradictory to me.
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
I'm of course an apostate and an atheist, but I don't believe most secular individuals have an interest in interfering with the personal beliefs of the religious if they merely remained personal beliefs, just as most secular individuals don't have an interest in interfering with the beliefs of those who embrace astrology or other superstition not based on reason. It's because the beliefs of the religious exert an undue influence over mainstream society (we might still have a World Trade Center if not for religion) that objections are raised. As noted:



I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.
You have not read much on this board then, we have several right NOW actively creating threads to ask peoples belief's and then attacking anyone that posts they believe in a God or religion.

Ohh and I notice you have a cartoon against religion but none against the rabid atheists that try to belittle the religious and are very vocal about their attacks.
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Big Black Dog View Post
Quote:
I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.
It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason.
That is a totally false statement.

Tens of millions of people were killed in both WWI and WWII. And it had zero to do with religion.

Also, tens of millions of people were killed and murdered during both the Russian and Chineese communist revolutions and subsequent takeovers.

And again, it had zero to do with religion, because the revolutions were led by secular atheists.
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