US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Fascinating Womanhood or The Feminine Mystique?

This is a discussion on Fascinating Womanhood or The Feminine Mystique? within the Religion and Ethics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Which book & theory do you agree with more? In praise of Fascinating Womanhood Since reading Helen Andelin's book, Fascinating Womanhood, I feel like I ...


Go Back   US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum > US Discussion > Religion and Ethics

Religion and Ethics Religion, Philosophy and the discussion of right and wrong

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:55 AM
chloe
Guest
Member #
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Fascinating Womanhood or The Feminine Mystique?

Which book & theory do you agree with more?

In praise of Fascinating Womanhood

Since reading Helen Andelin's book, Fascinating Womanhood, I feel like I was going through life blindfold, and now, suddenly, I can see. Suddenly, I get it. Suddenly, men don't seem so incomprehensible anymore. Now, it seems obvious to me why things I was doing weren't working, and most important, what does work! I could dance for joy! I used to secretly wish I'd been born a man, but now I absolutely love being a woman.

Helen Andelin explains how to be what she calls The Ideal Woman From A Man's Point Of View. My understanding of this is that this is a woman who understands men, has inner and radiant happiness, is of good character and a domestic goddess, is radiantly healthy, feminine, and can be childlike to diffuse tension in difficult moments. Andelin divides these traits up in to two sides, which she calls the Angelic (the traits that make you a bit untouchable and put you up on a pedestal) and the Human (the warm, very endearing , attractive traits).

In praise of Fascinating Womanhood



Can the problem that has no name be somehow related to the domestic routine of the housewife? When a woman tries to put the problem into words, she often merely describes the daily life she leads. What is there in this recital of comfortable domestic detail that could possibly cause such a feeling of desperation? Is she trapped simply by the enormous demands of her role as modern housewife: wife, mistress, mother, nurse, consumer, cook, chauffeur, expert on interior decoration child care, appliance repair, furniture refinishing, nutrition, and education?

Her day is fragmented as she rushes from dishwasher to washing machine to telephone to dryer to station wagon to supermarket, and delivers Johnny to the Little League field, takes Janey to dancing class, gets the lawnmower fixed and meets the 6:45. She can never spend more than 15 minutes on any one thing; she has no time to read books, only magazines; even if she had time, she has lost the power to concentrate. At the end of the day, she is so terribly tired that sometimes her husband has to take over and put the children to bed.

The Feminine Mystique: Chapter 1
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 09:14 AM
Amanda's Avatar
Calm as a Hindu cow
Member #15360
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,426
Thanks: 203
Thanked 298 Times in 233 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 89
Amanda could be City Mayor Amanda could be City Mayor Amanda could be City Mayor Amanda could be City Mayor Amanda could be City Mayor Amanda could be City Mayor Amanda could be City Mayor Amanda could be City Mayor
I've never read either one, I'll have to check to see if my library has them.

Ok, I just checked... my library doesn't have the first 1 and I have read the Feminine Mystique a long time ago I think. I didn't agree with it so much IIRC.

Last edited by Amanda; 12-02-2008 at 06:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 09:18 AM
Mr. Forgot-it-All
Member #11278
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Maine
Posts: 41,428
Thanks: 15,424
Thanked 9,561 Times in 6,767 Posts
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 3439
editec has a reputation beyond repute
editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute editec has a reputation beyond repute
Very few of the women I have known have been at home domestic servants.

Most of them worked and worked full time.

I think any women whose happiness depends entirely on their man is bound to be unhappy.

FWIW, their men are bound to be unhappy, too, to have that amount of responsibility for the happiness of their mates thust upon them.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 09:58 AM
sky dancer
Guest
Member #
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
I like your taste in books, chloe.

Have you read Women Who Run with the Wolves? It's wonderful. A Jungian approach and promotes women's spirituality.

I find this book, Dakin's Warm Breath, by Judith Simmer Brown to be an inspiring guide.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 10:00 AM
strollingbones's Avatar
appalachian american
Member #11703
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: crazy train
Posts: 44,394
Thanks: 2,207
Thanked 12,297 Times in 7,455 Posts
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 15430
strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati
strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati
Which book & theory do you agree with more?

In praise of Fascinating Womanhood

Since reading Helen Andelin's book, Fascinating Womanhood, I feel like I was going through life blindfold, and now, suddenly, I can see. Suddenly, I get it. Suddenly, men don't seem so incomprehensible anymore. Now, it seems obvious to me why things I was doing weren't working, and most important, what does work! I could dance for joy! I used to secretly wish I'd been born a man, but now I absolutely love being a woman.

Helen Andelin explains how to be what she calls The Ideal Woman From A Man's Point Of View. My understanding of this is that this is a woman who understands men, has inner and radiant happiness, is of good character and a domestic goddess, is radiantly healthy, feminine, and can be childlike to diffuse tension in difficult moments. Andelin divides these traits up in to two sides, which she calls the Angelic (the traits that make you a bit untouchable and put you up on a pedestal) and the Human (the warm, very endearing , attractive traits).

In praise of Fascinating Womanhood



Can the problem that has no name be somehow related to the domestic routine of the housewife? When a woman tries to put the problem into words, she often merely describes the daily life she leads. What is there in this recital of comfortable domestic detail that could possibly cause such a feeling of desperation? Is she trapped simply by the enormous demands of her role as modern housewife: wife, mistress, mother, nurse, consumer, cook, chauffeur, expert on interior decoration child care, appliance repair, furniture refinishing, nutrition, and education?

Her day is fragmented as she rushes from dishwasher to washing machine to telephone to dryer to station wagon to supermarket, and delivers Johnny to the Little League field, takes Janey to dancing class, gets the lawnmower fixed and meets the 6:45. She can never spend more than 15 minutes on any one thing; she has no time to read books, only magazines; even if she had time, she has lost the power to concentrate. At the end of the day, she is so terribly tired that sometimes her husband has to take over and put the children to bed.

The Feminine Mystique: Chapter 1

perhaps the man in your life finds the first part the idea woman...the man i have does not. he prefers a strong willed, voice and minded woman. of course that causes conflict but i am his partner not his child i am with him due to the wanting and loving not the needing..he likes being able to leave for weeks at a time and not be worried about me...not hear me whining how much i miss him and need him...if he wants a domestic goddess he can damn well hire one...i do believe they have services that provide that..we both come and go as we please with whom we please....we prefer to be equals than one taking the submissive role to please the other....men quickly bore of women who are the "idea woman" or as i call them the chamelons that change their colors depending on their mans mood...what is that...love...i think not...love allows one to grow and be....
__________________
"A lie ain't a side of a story. It's just a lie." snoop the wire
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 02:42 PM
chloe
Guest
Member #
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quote: Originally Posted by strollingbones Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
perhaps the man in your life finds the first part the idea woman...the man i have does not. he prefers a strong willed, voice and minded woman. of course that causes conflict but i am his partner not his child i am with him due to the wanting and loving not the needing..he likes being able to leave for weeks at a time and not be worried about me...not hear me whining how much i miss him and need him...if he wants a domestic goddess he can damn well hire one...i do believe they have services that provide that..we both come and go as we please with whom we please....we prefer to be equals than one taking the submissive role to please the other....men quickly bore of women who are the "idea woman" or as i call them the chamelons that change their colors depending on their mans mood...what is that...love...i think not...love allows one to grow and be....
I don't have a man in my life, unless you count Jeffree (my gay pal). Sometimes he does seem like he swings both ways....last time we hung out he told me when he's drunk he likes to make out with girls and showed me something inappropriate....YIKES!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 02:45 PM
chloe
Guest
Member #
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quote: Originally Posted by sky dancer Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
I like your taste in books, chloe.

Have you read Women Who Run with the Wolves? It's wonderful. A Jungian approach and promotes women's spirituality.

I find this book, Dakin's Warm Breath, by Judith Simmer Brown to be an inspiring guide.
Someone gave me that book Women who run with wolves but I never read it. Maybe I'll dig it up. I found the Fascinating WOmanhood book at a thrift shop called Deseret Industries, and it seemed to say just the opposite of the Feminine Mystique. They were written around the 60's & 70's. Things are a lot different now.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 02:52 PM
strollingbones's Avatar
appalachian american
Member #11703
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: crazy train
Posts: 44,394
Thanks: 2,207
Thanked 12,297 Times in 7,455 Posts
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 15430
strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati
strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati strollingbones gives orders to the Illuminati
why worry about making men happy...worry about making yourself happy....the other stuff will fall into place...
__________________
"A lie ain't a side of a story. It's just a lie." snoop the wire
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 02:53 PM
chloe
Guest
Member #
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quote: Originally Posted by strollingbones Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
why worry about making men happy...worry about making yourself happy....the other stuff will fall into place...
trueGuests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 03:03 PM
Annie's Avatar
chillin
Member #401
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 50,612
Thanks: 5,329
Thanked 2,553 Times in 1,821 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 1776
Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute
Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute
I read the, Feminine Mystique, way back when. I think geared more to my mom's generation than mine or younger. Published in early 60's.

Haven't ever heard of, In Praise of Fascinating Womanhood, though it sounds comparable to, The Total Woman, which was published I think in the 70's. Polar opposites.

Quite unbelievably, I found a review that mention both books, there are links at site:

The Total Woman, by Marabel Morgan: a book review

Quote:
The Total Woman, by Marabel Morgan: a book review

I had been wanting to read The Total Woman, by Marabel Morgan, for years. I had heard that it was like Fascinating Womanhood but much more sexy. As one who guiltily reads books like Fascinating Womanhood, by Helen Andelin, and The Surrendered Wife, by Laura Doyle, as erotic literature more than anything else, this sounded promising. Doyle and Andelin may have been silent on the subject of how extremely exciting it can be to be in an unequal relationship, but perhaps Morgan had mentioned the unmentionable.

The other day, I finally got my hands on a used copy of The Total Woman and read it. Evidently designed for housewives who are too busy ironing socks to waste time reading, it didn't take more than a few hours to read from cover to cover. I really wanted to like it, but it didn't live up to my expectations. Even the part on sex managed to be entirely unexciting.
It has some cute headings and its tone is more fun and light-hearted than Fascinating Womanhood and The Surrendered Wife, but it is so light on content that it almost makes The Surrendered Wife look deep – not an easy feat.

If you are a disorganised, frazzled Christian housewife and mother who has been snapping at her husband, bossing him about, and rejecting him sexually for years, you might find this book useful. The entire first part is about how to become more organised, and there is a large section on parenting too, because a “Total Woman” is more than just a good wife: she is an organised woman, a great housekeeper and a good mother, too. (But that's about it, as far as I can tell.)

Marabel Morgan's theory of “how to make your marriage come alive” is partly commonsense, part The Stepford Wives, and partly even more unwise than turning yourself into a Stepford wife.

The commonsense is fairly obvious stuff about not trying to change your man, and about being positive and effervescent and so on. For example, a cheery smile in the morning and an enthusiastic welcome when your husband comes home from work may make him feel good, and if he feels good, he will be nice to you, and everything will go swimmingly. That is, as long as he is the kind of man who likes that. Some people prefer zero interaction until they have had a chance to relax for half an hour after they get home from work. But you can see what the author is trying to say, even if she rather seems to assume that everyone has the same preferences.
Laura Doyle's The Surrendered Wife has often been criticised as advocating that women should turn themselves into Stepford wives, but The Total Woman seems to me much closer to advocating that. The Surrendered Wife has many faults to be sure, but it doesn't assume that a woman's only focus in life is her husband, home and children in quite the way The Total Woman seems to. I am all for women cherishing and focusing on their men, but Marabel Morgan appears to take the view that what a man wants is a woman who will make him, their home and children her whole life.

Some of the author's suggestions are excellent, but some seem positively frightening. She advises readers even to take up the same interests and hobbies as their husbands – yes, if fishing is his passion, you have to get up at 4 a.m. and go fishing with him for four hours if you want a good marriage; if he loves cars, you have to become knowledgeable about cars too; if he likes rugby, you have to learn the rules and the players and read the reports of games so you can talk enthusiastically to him about the latest player transfer. Why? Because when a husband talks about something important to him, some wives fail to engage with what their husband is saying and ask him to pass the salt.

If your husband is telling you something important to him (like what happened in the latest rugby game, or about his sighting of a “ruby-throated hummingbird nectaring at the zinnias”) obviously, asking him to pass the salt, or complaining about the neighbours' new garden furniture, is not ideal! But it doesn't follow that you should spend large amounts of precious ironing time (or whatever you like doing) teaching yourself ornithology or learning the rules of rugby, let alone going to a rugby match every Saturday, if that idea is about as appealing to you as ironing socks would be to me. It is perfectly possible to be supportive of a man and his interests without changing your entire life and dropping your own interests to do so. And how many men would really want a woman who spends so much time pursuing his interests that she has no time for her own? (On the other hand, quite a few women like rugby without having any idea what the rules are. All those big strong men bounding about and piling into each other in violent scraps – er, scrums, I mean.)

Marabel Morgan advises giving your husband a lovely home-cooked dinner every day, which you prepare in the morning after the breakfast you have cooked for the family. And don't forget to lay the table for dinner in the morning, after waving your husband off to work, and before doing all the housework necessary to keep your home spotless, and reading up on his interests.

And when your husband comes home from work, you are to greet him at the door wearing a different sexual fantasy costume every day, the aim being to signal your sexual availability and adventurousness. Now this might be a dream come true for some husbands, but not for all. The author does not seem to know what Laura Doyle knows, namely, that sometimes it is not the husband who feels sexually deprived, as seems to be assumed in this book, but the wife. In such a case, following Marabel Morgan's advice might well add more sexual pressure and put the husband off even more. He might feel manipulated or expected to perform on demand, and no good can come of that. So if you read this book, do not follow the advice mindlessly. There is so much that could be disastrous!

That is my view. If you have read the book, what do you think of it?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 04:20 PM
Angel Heart's Avatar
Conservative Hippie
Member #5790
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 2,057
Thanks: 79
Thanked 48 Times in 37 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 65
Angel Heart could be the Buddha Angel Heart could be the Buddha Angel Heart could be the Buddha Angel Heart could be the Buddha Angel Heart could be the Buddha Angel Heart could be the Buddha Angel Heart could be the Buddha
I have always wanted to be a mom and take great pride in caring for my family. As a young girl when asked what I wanted when I grew up I would say a mommy... I was told that's not a "real" job. I was pushed to choose between their choices of jobs that are "real". Who's to decide what is or isn't? What about those of use who are drawn to being providers?

No I don't make money directly but do have benefits. I get paid by knowing my children better than anyone else. I see the difference in my children from the children raised in child care. Studies can say what ever they want. I know there's a difference between a child care raised child and one with a SAHM.

I have never read either book and most likely will not. I'm currently making my way through Founding Mothers. I'm learning a lot more about myself by seeing how life was over 200 yrs ago and extremely hard. I realize how blessed my life really is.
__________________


The modern implement of imposing slaver is debt. ~ Ezra Pound
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:38 PM
chloe
Guest
Member #
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
When I was married I stayed home with my kids and I loved it, I was really active on the PTA and did alot of volunteer work. It was great. I didn't mind the domestic duties but my husband was never home and he started having affairs once his law practice took off. He would come home at 7 or 8am and say he was up all night working ona case. He missed alot of the kids school events and dance recitals. It was a lonely marriage really. Now I work and take care of our kids myself and I still have a lot of fun with my kids but we are poor so we sdon't go do things we just make our own fun at home.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:45 PM
Annie's Avatar
chillin
Member #401
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 50,612
Thanks: 5,329
Thanked 2,553 Times in 1,821 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 1776
Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute
Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute Annie has a reputation beyond repute
When I was married I stayed home with my kids and I loved it, I was really active on the PTA and did alot of volunteer work. It was great. I didn't mind the domestic duties but my husband was never home and he started having affairs once his law practice took off. He would come home at 7 or 8am and say he was up all night working ona case. He missed alot of the kids school events and dance recitals. It was a lonely marriage really. Now I work and take care of our kids myself and I still have a lot of fun with my kids but we are poor so we sdon't go do things we just make our own fun at home.
Chloe, we'll talk, lots in common. I wouldn't trade having been home with my kids for the first years of their lives for anything. I could have. In spite of my hearing loss Northwestern and other law schools wanted me, but I CHOSE to get married. That marriage produced three wonderful kids, one girl, two boys. The youngest is now 22, and going to graduate this spring. The oldest is graduating 12/14. Shazaam. I CHOSE to have these children with this man. Granted I'd come to rue the choice of the man, but never the children.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:46 PM
Caligirl's Avatar
Oh yes it is too!
Member #11753
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 3
Thanked 24 Times in 20 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 25
Caligirl could own USMB Caligirl could own USMB Caligirl could own USMB Caligirl could own USMB Caligirl could own USMB Caligirl could own USMB
I don't think either book appeals to me, though i do love being a mother it is too draining much of the time - the kids always expect you to be everything for them including the fault for whatever happened that day. Today my eleven year old yelled at me for parking the car where her friend was waiting to be picked up. (I had parked the car before the friend came to wait there.) Somehow it was my fault.....

And that's motherhood but so is talking through it and explaining why it is not entirely rational to expect your mother to have a premonition about where she should park the car to make the daughter's life perfect....

I do get mortally tired of making dinner day in and day out.

I also am SO GLAD that I was able to be home with them until they went off to school. And I am still home with them - only work during school hours.

My favorite notions of womanhood surround the idea of women coming into their own after having their kids - How we gain a sense of self that is independent of what our husbands may expect ... I do think in a healthy relationship it ends up working well, hubby seems to appreciate that I have a job I love and feel like my life is no longer limited to "just" motherhood (which is completely exhausting.)

I am happy where we are, the kids are good, the husband is mostly good, and my work is good - everything is good. I don't think being a woman "for him" makes sense, but neither does the recognisable complaints about motherhood sum up my days either....

Chloe, I am sorry to hear about your husband. (hug)

Last edited by Caligirl; 12-02-2008 at 08:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:51 PM
chloe
Guest
Member #
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Chloe, we'll talk, lots in common. I wouldn't trade having been home with my kids for the first years of their lives for anything. I could have. In spite of my hearing loss Northwestern and other law schools wanted me, but I CHOSE to get married. That marriage produced three wonderful kids, one girl, two boys. The youngest is now 22, and going to graduate this spring. The oldest is graduating 12/14. Shazaam. I CHOSE to have these children with this man. Granted I'd come to rue the choice of the man, but never the children.

Yeah I love my girls and sometimes its hard, but we are close we do have a lot of fun, sometimes when we are all very tired we get slap happy and we all say ridiculas things and laugh and laugh. We have our own jokes and ways of getting through things.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Lower Navigation
Go Back   US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum > US Discussion > Religion and Ethics
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:08 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.