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Spiritual but not religious

This is a discussion on Spiritual but not religious within the Religion and Ethics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 Quote: Originally Posted by Truthmatters I agree with the op that the writer has no idea what spirtual but not ...


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Old 10-01-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Truthmatters View Post
I agree with the op that the writer has no idea what spirtual but not religious means.


He is trying to fit it into the world of organized religion.


What spiritual but not religious means is that spirtual belief IS NOT a part of the organized religious world.


It is spirtuality for spiritual reasons and NOT for the benifit of organized religion.


Many people are begining to believe what they believe and refusing to organize that belief becuase organized religion has for far to long been a source of evil in the world.


They DEMAND you believe what they believe and then Drag you arround by the nose for the rest of your life.

FUCK THAT.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

believe what comes from your soul.


fuck organizing
Believe what you want to believe? That really explains a lot about you.

Problem is, what we want to believe might not necessarily be what is true. The truth is things as they are, as they were, and as they will be. It's not subject to what we want to believe. It's true regardless of what people believe or don't believe.

And you are wrong TM, if you dont want to believe the principles of happiness, you are free to live otherwise and deal with the consequences otherwise. God doesn't force anyone. He wants a willing heart and mind. That's why charity needs to come from the heart and be voluntary and having your money taken by force and given to others is contrary to what is right.

And being organized is good. It is an empowering principle.
I'm not going to defend TM.

I do want to point out that the majority of humanity has not accepted what you consider to be the truth, at least as far as religion is concerned, Avatar. Even if it is the truth, it seems to be a truth that is not particularly obvious. I also have no doubt that many people would consider their own views truth and yours merely erroneous belief.

What is truth can be extremely difficult, sometimes perhaps impossible, to determine. When you tell people that what they think about a subject is nothing but foolish belief, but that what YOU think is not belief at all, instead being absolute truth, you sound arrogant and condescending. I don't think you meant to sound that way as you have never struck me as that type of poster. IMO, though, you certainly have with your post.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2012, 03:20 PM
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Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, together have thousands of years of monotheistic spiritual wisdom of great scholars to draw from.

But today's shallow and narcissistic individuals are more into self centered "spirituality" than drawing from any proven and time honored ancient text of religion.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:27 PM
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You know............I like what a friend of mine named Ned taught me once.

"I'm not a human being seeking a spiritual experience, I'm a spiritual being having a human one."

As far as religion? I believe that it's kinda like an elementary school to teach us who God is, but, after you gain that understanding, it's kinda up to you to seek Him out in your own way.

I also like what His Holiness the Dali Lama said when he was asked how many different religions there should be. His reply was there should be as many religions as there are people, because all of us percieve God in a slightly different way.

The dogma contained in religion can actually hide some of the truth about God from you.

As far as sin? I only believe it's a "sin" if it goes against the 7 Noahide Commandments or the 10 Commandments. Anything else like drinking, dancing, sex, etc. is a vice.

And by the way...............most major religions have some version of the 7 Noahide Commandments, they just phrase it a bit different.

BTW............the 10 Commandments say pretty much the same thing as the 7 Noahide Commandments.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sunni Man View Post
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, together have thousands of years of monotheistic spiritual wisdom of great scholars to draw from.

But today's shallow and narcissistic individuals are more into self centered "spirituality" than drawing from any proven and time honored ancient text of religion.
I agree with all of that except one word.
Shallow is your opinion only.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sunni Man View Post
I once had a dog that was spiritual; but not religious.

He used to stand in the yard and howl at the moon.

I think he was some kind of Druid or something?

But as far as I know, he never attended any religious services.
Somehow this seems to strike at the heart of the topic more than any post in the thread.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Inthemiddle View Post
I was initially beside myself with this particular essay. I find this guy completely off the mark, not having the first basic understanding of what "spiritual but not religious" means.

My Take: 'I'm spiritual but not religious' is a cop-out – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
What did he get wrong? Are we supposed to be outraged because his position disagrees with yours just because you are awesomely awesome?
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When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything -- you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:57 PM
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I tend to agree that 'spiritual but not religious' is usually a copout. Most people I query about it seem to be expressing an emotional, perhaps instinctive, urge to believe in the supernatural - conflicted with a rational awareness that it's bullshit.

However, there are some, I'll admit, who are sincerely "spiritual" seekers choosing to forge their own path rather than follow a specific religious practice. That doesn't make them any loonier than the 'followers', or less so.

Last edited by dblack; 10-01-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:02 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Inthemiddle View Post
I was initially beside myself with this particular essay. I find this guy completely off the mark, not having the first basic understanding of what "spiritual but not religious" means.

My Take: 'I'm spiritual but not religious' is a cop-out ? CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:12 PM
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Regardless, 2013 years ago something very unique and special happened, we measure the progress of time based on his birth. So put that into your pipe and smoke it.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:14 PM
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I always loved the way Thoreau put it, in "Civil Disobedience".

Quote:
[17] They who know of no purer sources of truth, who have traced up its stream no higher, stand, and wisely stand, by the Bible and the Constitution, and drink at it there with reverence and humility; but they who behold where it comes trickling into this lake or that pool, gird up their loins once more, and continue their pilgrimage toward its fountain-head.
Salvation is the Goal. Organized Religion the Beginning, the Foundation, the Training Wheels. One does not need to reject them to advance in Spiritual Growth. There comes a Time for Each of us, where an Individual relationship is inevitable. God first in all things, through Conscience. Locke Found that. Madison found that, Thoreau found that, So did Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. How? By searching out the best or worst in people?

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[18] No man with a genius for legislation has appeared in America. They are rare in the history of the world. There are orators, politicians, and eloquent men, by the thousand; but the speaker has not yet opened his mouth to speak who is capable of settling the much-vexed questions of the day. We love eloquence for its own sake, and not for any truth which it may utter, or any heroism it may inspire. Our legislators have not yet learned the comparative value of free-trade and of freedom, of union, and of rectitude, to a nation. They have no genius or talent for comparatively humble questions of taxation and finance, commerce and manufacturers and agriculture. If we were left solely to the wordy wit of legislators in Congress for our guidance, uncorrected by the seasonable experience and the effectual complaints of the people, America would not long retain her rank among the nations. For eighteen hundred years, though perchance I have no right to say it, the New Testament has been written; yet where is the legislator who has wisdom and practical talent enough to avail himself of the light which it sheds on the science of legislation?

[19] The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to — for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know nor can do so well — is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it. The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarchy to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher (8) was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly. I please myself with imagining a State at least which can afford to be just to all men, and to treat the individual with respect as a neighbor; which even would not think it inconsistent with its own repose if a few were to live aloof from it, not meddling with it, nor embraced by it, who fulfilled all the duties of neighbors and fellow-men. A State which bore this kind of fruit, and suffered it to drop off as fast as it ripened, would prepare the way for a still more perfect and glorious State, which also I have imagined, but not yet anywhere seen.

Thoreau's Civil Disobedience - 3
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:47 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Staidhup View Post
Regardless, 2013 years ago something very unique and special happened, we measure the progress of time based on his birth. So put that into your pipe and smoke it.
Depends on your belief system.

Buddha and Jesus taught basically the same thing.

Is one more important than the other?

If you say yes, then you're tied strongly to dogma.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:29 AM
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Most of the Christians on the board may be surprised that I actually agree about the "cop out" nature of most who use the tired phrase "spiritual but not religious." It's about as tired as most religion itself.

It is important that if one considers the spiritual, then one is obligated to study the spiritual. This inevitably includes organized religious doctrine. I've studied it. I've just never found God there except in the most abstract ways. There is an inherent fallacy in considering a collection of writings written by men over a large span of time at different periods as the "Word of God." It requires faith. This is okay.

The problem is the ferocity with which people will cling to sacred texts as if they were actually written by God, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in their writing, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in the process of selecting which of the early Christian texts would be canon and which would be rejected. It is a known human tendency to embellish events, but when bringing up the outright likelihood that such behavior was present in the writing of scripture to those of faith they get very upset.

Despite all of this, I do recognize the value of religion, and the moral compass it tends to provide to society. Christians might be surprised to learn that I agree with the general concept that the decline of religious adherence in the U.S. has contributed to a general moral decay. I don't think it can really be disputed.

This does not establish scriptures as the "Word of God," simply because correlation does not imply causation, one of the most basic logical rules. It does strongly demonstrate, however, the moral societal framework that religion provides, the benefits of which tend to outweigh the drawbacks. This also does not mean that non-religious people cannot be highly moral. The fact that there were deists and non-religious people involved with the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution along with the religious people demonstrates this nicely.

I challenge religion all the time. That said, given a choice between being surrounded by Christians and being surrounded by a society lacking a moral compass, I'll take the former.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:54 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jimmy_Jam View Post
Most of the Christians on the board may be surprised that I actually agree about the "cop out" nature of most who use the tired phrase "spiritual but not religious." It's about as tired as most religion itself.

It is important that if one considers the spiritual, then one is obligated to study the spiritual. This inevitably includes organized religious doctrine. I've studied it. I've just never found God there except in the most abstract ways. There is an inherent fallacy in considering a collection of writings written by men over a large span of time at different periods as the "Word of God." It requires faith. This is okay.

The problem is the ferocity with which people will cling to sacred texts as if they were actually written by God, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in their writing, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in the process of selecting which of the early Christian texts would be canon and which would be rejected. It is a known human tendency to embellish events, but when bringing up the outright likelihood that such behavior was present in the writing of scripture to those of faith they get very upset.

Despite all of this, I do recognize the value of religion, and the moral compass it tends to provide to society. Christians might be surprised to learn that I agree with the general concept that the decline of religious adherence in the U.S. has contributed to a general moral decay. I don't think it can really be disputed.

This does not establish scriptures as the "Word of God," simply because correlation does not imply causation, one of the most basic logical rules. It does strongly demonstrate, however, the moral societal framework that religion provides, the benefits of which tend to outweigh the drawbacks. This also does not mean that non-religious people cannot be highly moral. The fact that there were deists and non-religious people involved with the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution along with the religious people demonstrates this nicely.

I challenge religion all the time. That said, given a choice between being surrounded by Christians and being surrounded by a society lacking a moral compass, I'll take the former.
I am not surprised by anything you said. It even lifts my spirits in a number of ways. I agree with a great deal of what you put forth. I agree with the cop out postulation, the same one Avatar alleged. I agree with the moral decay, but I do believe there are enough other ways to prove this is a primary cause and not just a correlation.

I disagree in other matters, of course.

"The problem is the ferocity with which people will cling to sacred texts as if they were actually written by God, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in their writing, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in the process of selecting which of the early Christian texts would be canon and which would be rejected. It is a known human tendency to embellish events, but when bringing up the outright likelihood that such behavior was present in the writing of scripture to those of faith they get very upset."

One, yours or anyone else’s rejection does not upset me, and it surely should not upset any believer.

Two, of course human fallacy could have been involved in both the composition and in the selection of “sacred texts,” but I have enough supporting evidence outside of Scripture to convince me that is simply not the case. I am convinced the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but that does not mean we Catholics do not have real disputes with other denominations claims or interpretations.

Three, I see no reason to embellish anything when one is already convinced who God is and what He has in store for us. It would be a disservice to the great cause to lie or embellish.

Finally, you say you only see abstract suggestions or evidence of God in your studies of Scripture and religion. There, it appears, we differe mostly. But I appreciate your honest evaluations and resignations.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by turzovka View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Jimmy_Jam View Post
Most of the Christians on the board may be surprised that I actually agree about the "cop out" nature of most who use the tired phrase "spiritual but not religious." It's about as tired as most religion itself.

It is important that if one considers the spiritual, then one is obligated to study the spiritual. This inevitably includes organized religious doctrine. I've studied it. I've just never found God there except in the most abstract ways. There is an inherent fallacy in considering a collection of writings written by men over a large span of time at different periods as the "Word of God." It requires faith. This is okay.

The problem is the ferocity with which people will cling to sacred texts as if they were actually written by God, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in their writing, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in the process of selecting which of the early Christian texts would be canon and which would be rejected. It is a known human tendency to embellish events, but when bringing up the outright likelihood that such behavior was present in the writing of scripture to those of faith they get very upset.

Despite all of this, I do recognize the value of religion, and the moral compass it tends to provide to society. Christians might be surprised to learn that I agree with the general concept that the decline of religious adherence in the U.S. has contributed to a general moral decay. I don't think it can really be disputed.

This does not establish scriptures as the "Word of God," simply because correlation does not imply causation, one of the most basic logical rules. It does strongly demonstrate, however, the moral societal framework that religion provides, the benefits of which tend to outweigh the drawbacks. This also does not mean that non-religious people cannot be highly moral. The fact that there were deists and non-religious people involved with the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution along with the religious people demonstrates this nicely.

I challenge religion all the time. That said, given a choice between being surrounded by Christians and being surrounded by a society lacking a moral compass, I'll take the former.
I am not surprised by anything you said. It even lifts my spirits in a number of ways. I agree with a great deal of what you put forth. I agree with the cop out postulation, the same one Avatar alleged. I agree with the moral decay, but I do believe there are enough other ways to prove this is a primary cause and not just a correlation.

I disagree in other matters, of course.

"The problem is the ferocity with which people will cling to sacred texts as if they were actually written by God, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in their writing, as if human fallacy could not have been involved in the process of selecting which of the early Christian texts would be canon and which would be rejected. It is a known human tendency to embellish events, but when bringing up the outright likelihood that such behavior was present in the writing of scripture to those of faith they get very upset."

One, yours or anyone else’s rejection does not upset me, and it surely should not upset any believer.

Two, of course human fallacy could have been involved in both the composition and in the selection of “sacred texts,” but I have enough supporting evidence outside of Scripture to convince me that is simply not the case. I am convinced the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but that does not mean we Catholics do not have real disputes with other denominations claims or interpretations.

Three, I see no reason to embellish anything when one is already convinced who God is and what He has in store for us. It would be a disservice to the great cause to lie or embellish.

Finally, you say you only see abstract suggestions or evidence of God in your studies of Scripture and religion. There, it appears, we differe mostly. But I appreciate your honest evaluations and resignations.
These little exchanges are beneficial to the cause of understanding, something modern Americans seem reluctant to actually benefit from. The beauty is that it does not require one to change one's position.

See highlighted above. I appreciate that you see no reason to embellish. The problem is that it is a part of the human psyche. It is an extremely difficult tendency to resist for almost all human beings. When one believes in something, be it miracles, ghosts, or UFOs, events are perceived in different ways than one who does not, sometimes in radically divergent ways. That two can see a single event and report two dramatically different experiences can be seen in humanity over and over again. It is in this light that I treat the scriptures. This human tendency is not something that we evolved into, it was with us back then too.

Why do mainstream Christians insist on the authenticity of the Gospels, yet will have no problem with claims that the gnostic texts that were rejected in the Council of Nicea are not? It's a simple answer, because religious organization has mandated that they do. What's more I feel confident in saying that most Christians would fear to read the Gospel of Mary Magdalene or the Gospel of Thomas out of fear of exposure to tainted or heretical content. But the simple explanation to why they were rejected is that there was an effort to consolidate Christianity from an esoteric assortment of sects with radically varying beliefs into something consistent, and those texts were simply not germane enough to help that cause. The Synoptic Gospels are close enough to serve the purpose, and allowing those other texts would perpetuate a wide variety of schisms.

Most of faith consider this a string of events guided by God. Skeptics consider this the means used by Rome for political control. I tend toward the latter, especially because Rome had already proven for centuries up to that point their great skill at conquest and subjugation. Was faith not involved then too? I'm sure it was.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:45 PM
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If you believe In a divinity, you are religious. It's ridiculous to say I believe in a son-god who's father created the universe (but they are two parts of the same) and offers eternal salvation from eternal torment yet you are not religious. You are. Just own it.
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