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Declining moral values

This is a discussion on Declining moral values within the Religion and Ethics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre Hi STH. Hope you're finding a happy home here at USMB. I understand where you're going with this, but I ...


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  #256 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2010, 09:50 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre View Post
Hi STH. Hope you're finding a happy home here at USMB.

I understand where you're going with this, but I get stuck in the mechanics of the thought.

How do we know what is 'ethical' without moral values being a factor in that?

And for most of us, especially here in America, where did we get our moral values other than from our religious heritage?
hello there. First question: toss morals aside. Let's start with a blank slate. Medical and scientific ethics are based around these principles:
beneficence: benefiting others
nonmaleficence: not harming others
autonomy: allowing people to make decisions for themselves
justice: you know this one
In general, ethics speaks to equality, the removal of double-standards, and not taking advantage of others. This last point could be in regards to brute force or scare tactics, or it could be through offering large amounts of money to overcome people's natural autonomy. It can also come in the form of misleading or wrongfully influencing others. This is why researchers need to disclose sources of income: to show people they are not being wrongly influenced, and can report in an unbiased manner.

So now let's add "morals" back in. What constitutes morals exactly? View on sexuality, gender, or contraception? Views on atonement, or keeping the Sabbath, or prayer? What do these things have to do with equality? Humanism? Justice?

As for your second question, I can only ask why "moral values" or "spiritual values" are needed at all in society? Why not ethical values only? I'm not saying you should scrap your religious beliefs, which are so strongly based on morals, but if ETHICAL values are the best type of values for society, why do moral values influence politics and policy so often? Family values are best kept in the family. Whose family? Your own. None are needed outside of that, though the fundamentals of ethical values should be known by all.

Let me ask you this: is it better to understand and internalize the reasons behind a rule, or to have the rule forced upon you without question? In this regard, how do you think moral vs ethical values tend to operate?
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  #257 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2010, 09:55 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by chanel View Post
Quote:
PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans are three times more likely to describe the current state of moral values in the United States as "poor" than as "excellent" or "good." Americans' assessment of U.S. morality has never been positive, but the current ratings rank among the worst Gallup has measured over the past nine years.

Additionally, Gallup's annual poll on moral values, conducted May 3-6, finds 76% of Americans saying moral values in the United States are getting worse; while 14% say they are getting better. Last year saw a slight improvement in these attitudes -- with 21% saying values were getting better -- but opinion has since reverted to near 2006-2008 levels.


Teen pregnancy may be #19 on the list - but I believe it is a significant factor in at least half of all the others.

What say you?
I credit great Americans like Hugh Hefner who was responsible for giving us great art (like the kind you have in your avatar) for helping America to remove the collective pole up its ass.
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  #258 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2010, 10:02 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SmarterThanHick View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre View Post
Hi STH. Hope you're finding a happy home here at USMB.

I understand where you're going with this, but I get stuck in the mechanics of the thought.

How do we know what is 'ethical' without moral values being a factor in that?

And for most of us, especially here in America, where did we get our moral values other than from our religious heritage?
hello there. First question: toss morals aside. Let's start with a blank slate. Medical and scientific ethics are based around these principles:
beneficence: benefiting others
nonmaleficence: not harming others
autonomy: allowing people to make decisions for themselves
justice: you know this one
In general, ethics speaks to equality, the removal of double-standards, and not taking advantage of others. This last point could be in regards to brute force or scare tactics, or it could be through offering large amounts of money to overcome people's natural autonomy. It can also come in the form of misleading or wrongfully influencing others. This is why researchers need to disclose sources of income: to show people they are not being wrongly influenced, and can report in an unbiased manner.

So now let's add "morals" back in. What constitutes morals exactly? View on sexuality, gender, or contraception? Views on atonement, or keeping the Sabbath, or prayer? What do these things have to do with equality? Humanism? Justice?

As for your second question, I can only ask why "moral values" or "spiritual values" are needed at all in society? Why not ethical values only? I'm not saying you should scrap your religious beliefs, which are so strongly based on morals, but if ETHICAL values are the best type of values for society, why do moral values influence politics and policy so often? Family values are best kept in the family. Whose family? Your own. None are needed outside of that, though the fundamentals of ethical values should be known by all.

Let me ask you this: is it better to understand and internalize the reasons behind a rule, or to have the rule forced upon you without question? In this regard, how do you think moral vs ethical values tend to operate?
Let's just take one of the several ideas you have put here.

Why is it ethical to benefit others or not harm others? Why is that considered an ethical standard in our culture when it is not the ethical standard in others?

So where does not sense of duty to benefit others come from?
Where does a conviction to not harm others arise?
Who decided?
Who decides?
Why?
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  #259 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2010, 03:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Modbert View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by chanel View Post
Coveting your neighbor's goods is only a sin when it becomes an overwhelming sense of entitlement to other people's property. Socialists absolutely hate that one.
I recall the commandment being "Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Goods."

I don't remember the 2nd half that you seem to have added in.
Yes I added that in.

Quote:
THE TENTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not covet . . . anything that is your neighbor's. . . . You shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.317

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.318

2534 The tenth commandment unfolds and completes the ninth, which is concerned with concupiscence of the flesh. It forbids coveting the goods of another, as the root of theft, robbery, and fraud, which the seventh commandment forbids

2537 It is not a violation of this commandment to desire to obtain things that belong to one's neighbor, provided this is done by just means
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The tenth commandment

"Coveting" is not a violation. Desire to steal is. Socialists hate that one.
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  #260 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2010, 05:16 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by chanel View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Modbert View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by chanel View Post
Coveting your neighbor's goods is only a sin when it becomes an overwhelming sense of entitlement to other people's property. Socialists absolutely hate that one.
I recall the commandment being "Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Goods."

I don't remember the 2nd half that you seem to have added in.
Yes I added that in.

Quote:
THE TENTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not covet . . . anything that is your neighbor's. . . . You shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.317

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.318

2534 The tenth commandment unfolds and completes the ninth, which is concerned with concupiscence of the flesh. It forbids coveting the goods of another, as the root of theft, robbery, and fraud, which the seventh commandment forbids

2537 It is not a violation of this commandment to desire to obtain things that belong to one's neighbor, provided this is done by just means
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The tenth commandment

"Coveting" is not a violation. Desire to steal is. Socialists hate that one.
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  #261 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2010, 09:17 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Kalam View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by logical4u View Post
Today:

- Discriminating against Christians
- Discrimination against Jews
I guess in their minds they can't discriminate and push others around anymore, that must mean they are being discriminated against I weep at the stupidity of man
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  #262 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2010, 05:46 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Dr Gregg View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalam View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by logical4u View Post
Today:

- Discriminating against Christians
- Discrimination against Jews
I guess in their minds they can't discriminate and push others around anymore, that must mean they are being discriminated against I weep at the stupidity of man
When people are chopped to pieces with machetes because they are Christian, I call that persecution. When people are not ALLOWED (under punishment of death) to worship their G*d (or even quietly pray to their G*d) in many countries, that is discrimmination. You are bigots and discrimminators.
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  #263 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2010, 06:15 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by logical4u View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Dr Gregg View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalam View Post

I guess in their minds they can't discriminate and push others around anymore, that must mean they are being discriminated against I weep at the stupidity of man
When people are chopped to pieces with machetes because they are Christian, I call that persecution.
You've got it backwards, chief.
Quote: Originally Posted by Human Rights Watch

DR Congo: Lord’s Resistance Army Rampage Kills 321

Regional Strategy Needed to End Rebel Group’s Atrocities and Apprehend Leaders

March 28, 2010


(Kampala) - The rebel Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) killed at least 321 civilians and abducted 250 others, including at least 80 children, during a previously unreported four-day rampage in the Makombo area of northeastern Democratic Republic of Congo in December 2009, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

....

LRA forces attacked at least 10 villages, capturing, killing, and abducting hundreds of civilians, including women and children. The vast majority of those killed were adult men, whom LRA combatants first tied up and then hacked to death with machetes or crushed their skulls with axes and heavy wooden sticks. The dead include at least 13 women and 23 children, the youngest a 3-year-old girl who was burned to death. LRA combatants tied some of the victims to trees before crushing their skulls with axes.
DR Congo: Lord?s Resistance Army Rampage Kills 321 | Human Rights Watch
The Christians are the ones with the machetes. Don't let that put a damper on your persecution complex, though.
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  #264 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2010, 06:56 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre View Post
Why is it ethical to benefit others or not harm others? Why is that considered an ethical standard in our culture when it is not the ethical standard in others?

So where does not sense of duty to benefit others come from?
Where does a conviction to not harm others arise?
Who decided?
Who decides?
Why?
What culture is harming others viewed as ethical? I mean, we can get into a whole discussion about what defines "good" and "bad", but I'd rather stay more objective than philosophical. The ethical principle I pointed out above does not require you to benefit others. I dislike the notion "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" because it is frequently misinterpreted and abused as "force onto others as you would want for yourself": the issue of "morals" getting into politics, where they have no place.


Quote: Originally Posted by logical4u View Post
When people are chopped to pieces with machetes because they are Christian, I call that persecution. When people are not ALLOWED (under punishment of death) to worship their G*d (or even quietly pray to their G*d) in many countries, that is discrimmination. You are bigots and discrimminators.
what the hell are you talking about?
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  #265 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2010, 05:11 AM
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One person believes drinking is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes gambling is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes playing any card game is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes working on Sunday is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes working on Saturday is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes a woman working when she has kids is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes woman wearing pants is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes eating shell fish or BBQ porksandwiches is immoral . Another believes it is not.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............to infinity.
Government and society needs to STAY THE HELL OUT of the morals name game.
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  #266 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2010, 05:22 AM
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Old 05-20-2010, 06:21 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Kalam View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by logical4u View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Dr Gregg View Post

I guess in their minds they can't discriminate and push others around anymore, that must mean they are being discriminated against I weep at the stupidity of man
When people are chopped to pieces with machetes because they are Christian, I call that persecution.
You've got it backwards, chief.
Quote: Originally Posted by Human Rights Watch

DR Congo: Lord’s Resistance Army Rampage Kills 321

Regional Strategy Needed to End Rebel Group’s Atrocities and Apprehend Leaders

March 28, 2010


(Kampala) - The rebel Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) killed at least 321 civilians and abducted 250 others, including at least 80 children, during a previously unreported four-day rampage in the Makombo area of northeastern Democratic Republic of Congo in December 2009, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

....

LRA forces attacked at least 10 villages, capturing, killing, and abducting hundreds of civilians, including women and children. The vast majority of those killed were adult men, whom LRA combatants first tied up and then hacked to death with machetes or crushed their skulls with axes and heavy wooden sticks. The dead include at least 13 women and 23 children, the youngest a 3-year-old girl who was burned to death. LRA combatants tied some of the victims to trees before crushing their skulls with axes.
DR Congo: Lord?s Resistance Army Rampage Kills 321 | Human Rights Watch
The Christians are the ones with the machetes. Don't let that put a damper on your persecution complex, though.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians · Wikipedia on Bing4 Christians Killed Within 48 Hours in Iraq | Christianpost.comFour Iraqi Christians were murdered within two days by unknown assailants, according to a Christian persecution watchdog group.

http://www.christianpost.com/Intl/Pe...in-48-hours-in... · Cached pageChristian Persecution Blog: Nine Christians Killed in NigeriaA weblog about Christian persecution around the world. The Persecution Blog shares news and information of concern to Christians about the persecuted church.

Christian Persecution Blog: Nine Christians Killed in Nigeria · Cached pageIraq: Businessman killed as attacks on Christians continue - CNN.comGunmen killed a Christian businessman and wounded his nephew in a drive-by shooting in Mosul, police said Monday.

Iraq: Businessman killed as attacks on Christians continue - CNN.com · Cached pageOfficials: 6 Pakistani Christians Killed by Muslim Extremists ...Six Christians, including a child, were killed in eastern Pakistan by members of a banned radical Muslim group, officials said.
404 Error | Christianpost.com... · Cached pageYouTube - Christians Are Persecuted, Martyred, and Killed ...Christians Are Being Persecuted, Martyred, and Killed Worldwide Video courtesy of: Persecution.com Who is His Church? How many Christians are n...

· Cached pageMore Christians killed in India violenceChristian Today > |PIC1|The death toll continues to rise in India's Orissa state as a wave of violence against Christians shows no sign of stopping. Hindu mobs have damaged ...

More Christians killed in India violence · Cached pageChristians being killed in northern Iraq in run up to electionChristian Today > The bullet-riddled body of a 20-year-old Christian student was found on the street of the northern Iraqi city of Mosul Wednesday. Wissam George was missing ...

http://www.christiantoday.com/articl...q.in.run.up.to... · Cached pageAl Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Christians killed in Pakistan ...Deaths in village clashes follow allegations that a Quran had been defiled.

Christians killed by Muslim youths in Jos, Nigeria

Assemblies of God NewsThis past weekend, at least 500 Christians - including women and children - were killed near the city of Jos, Nigeria, by Hausa-Fulani, an ethnic group.

rss.ag.org/articles/detail.cfm?

Report: At Least 500 Christians Killed in Orissa, India ...Catholic Online International News. The best resources for all international

FOXNews.com - Police Surround Gunmen Who Killed 6 ChristiansPolice have surrounded the farm fields in southern Egypt where gunmen who killed six Christians following Christmas eve mass are believed to be hiding, as massive numbers of riot ...

Christians face jail for giving treats to children of Muslims - Times ...
About 10,000 Christians were killed in Indonesia between 1998 and 2003 and about 1,000 churches were burnt down by Muslim mobs, according to campaigners.

Pakistan suspects Al Qaeda allies killed Christians | ReutersISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Islamist militants from groups linked to al Qaeda and the Taliban are suspected of being behind the mob violence that killed eight Christians in central ...

Nigeria Violence: 12 Christians Killed, Tongues Cut OutLAGOS, Nigeria — Attackers killed 12 people Wednesday morning in a small Christian village in central Nigeria, officials said, cutting out most of the victims' tongues in the ...

55,000 Christians Are Killed for their Faith Every Year | John Mark ...Tuesday, June 27, 2006 Persecution of Christians on the Rise At Least 55,000 Christians Are Killed for their Faith Every Year By Wolfgang Polzer Special

Home / World Wide / U.S.A. / History shows Jews and Christians killed ...Media Monitors Network (MMN) is a non-profit, non-partial and non-political platform for those serious Media Contributors and Observres who crave to know and like to help to

1500 Christians killed in Nigeria - news from ekklesia | Ekklesia1500 Christians killed in Nigeria -7/4/04 Religious violence that erupted in the Nigerian state of Plateau a few weeks ago has expanded and resulted

Christians killed - World, News - The IndependentAssuit - Suspected Muslim gunmen killed eight people, including five Christians and two policemen, and shot at a train in separate incidents marking a surge of violence at the end ...

Coptic Christians Killed At Church In EgyptCAIRO - More than half a dozen Coptic Christians were killed and another half dozen were wounded, many seriously, after a Thursday morning drive-by shooting after a Christmas ...

'Muslims persecuting Bethlehem's Christians' - Israel News, YnetnewsNews: Store owner in West Bank city says 'We are harassed, but you wouldn't know the truth. No one says anything publicly about the Muslims'

Hitler Was an Atheist Who Killed Millions in the Name of Atheism ...A popular image of the Nazis is that they were anti-Christian while Christians were anti-



Just do a search on 'Christians killed'. Would you care to revise your statement?
Because a muslim group chooses a deceptive name, does not make it a Christian group.
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  #268 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2010, 07:39 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Gadawg73 View Post
One person believes drinking is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes gambling is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes playing any card game is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes working on Sunday is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes working on Saturday is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes a woman working when she has kids is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes woman wearing pants is immoral. Another believes it is not.
One person believes eating shell fish or BBQ porksandwiches is immoral . Another believes it is not.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............to infinity.
Government and society needs to STAY THE HELL OUT of the morals name game.
Exactly. Government was intended to secure our rights meaning that nobody, despite their beliefs, is allowed to infringe on anybody else's rights without consequence, and then get out of the way and leave the people to form whatever sort of society they wish to have.

The Founders did believe that only a moral society would respect the Constitution and the principles included in it, but they did not see it as the prerogative of government to dictate what morality is.
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  #269 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:19 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by chanel View Post
Quote:
PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans are three times more likely to describe the current state of moral values in the United States as "poor" than as "excellent" or "good." Americans' assessment of U.S. morality has never been positive, but the current ratings rank among the worst Gallup has measured over the past nine years.

Additionally, Gallup's annual poll on moral values, conducted May 3-6, finds 76% of Americans saying moral values in the United States are getting worse; while 14% say they are getting better. Last year saw a slight improvement in these attitudes -- with 21% saying values were getting better -- but opinion has since reverted to near 2006-2008 levels.


Teen pregnancy may be #19 on the list - but I believe it is a significant factor in at least half of all the others.

What say you?
i say


disrespect of others: we can blame this on conservatives who mock and ridicule everyone who doesn't agree with all of their beliefs.

parents not instilling proper values:
we can blame this on conservatives who teach their children to hate and mock and riciule everyone who isn't conservative

parents not spending time with children:
we can blame this on conservatives who have TOO many children so they can't possibly spend quality time with any of them. plus conservative parents spend way too much time shushing their kids as they listen to limbaugh, beck, oreilly and attend tea parties

dishonesty among government/business leaders:
we can blame this on conservatives who believe in completely unfettered capitalism

rising crime/violence (is this true? is it really rising? are there any stats to prove this?)
we can blame this on conservatives who
a. promote hatred and violence on their hate radio shows
and
b. believe in a system of unfettered capitalism that ultimately causes many people to be disenfranchised, leading to poverty, leading to crime


moving away from religion is a GOOD thing.

breakdown of family/unwed mothers:
we can blame this on primitive conservatives who
demand that ABSTINANCE ONLY sex education be the ONLY sex education that teens get in public schools and who are obsessed with marriage. The world is changing. our attitudes regarding relationships, sex, marriage are all changing. Today it is possible for a hard working, responsible woman like Murphy Brown to have a child without a husband.
today people don't remain in bad, loveless marriages simply because conservatives will have a hissy fit if anyone gets divorced.



people not responsible for behavior:
we can blame this on conservatives who REFUSE to stop smoking tobacco, REFUSE to stop eating fattyy foods, REFUSE to be civilzed, REFUSE to diet and exercise, REFUSE to behave in a resepctful manner of others

sex/promiscuity/pornography are GOOD things

abortion: is not a problem.

gay/lesbian relationships:

with these 2 you reveal to me the REAL agenda!

abortion and homosexuality are NOT examples of declining values. The fact that homosexuality is included as a "declining value" is just evidence of irrational hatreds and bigotries.

which reminds me....
I don't see "irrational bigotries against homosexuals" listed as a "declining value".....

teen pregnancy:
brings us back to cons refusing to allow proper sex education in schools while demanding that ABSTINANCE ONLY be the ONLY sex education allowed.

drugs: the war on pot is an abomination
people smoking pot is no more of a "declining value" than people watching nascar or people drinking beer
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  #270 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post

The conservative brain

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