Is this still government by the people?

**Foxfyre** · #1 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 10:25 AM

If you believe, as I do, that the American public is being fed a lot of questionable or flat out incorrect information so that the Administration will not be significantly challenged as it pushes through an unprecedented ambitious agenda, what can we the people do to force honest debate on the issues before they come to a vote?

Even aside from an impending crushing debt that will oppress generations to come, are we helpless to rein in an out-of-control government that threatens to overwhelm every aspect of our lives?

Please discuss.

Quote:

Cato Unbound

"Few challenges facing America and the world are more urgent than combating climate change.The science is beyond dispute and the facts are clear."
— PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, NOVEMBER 19 , 2008

With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true. We, the [100] undersigned scientists, maintain that the case for alarm regarding climate change is grossly overstated. Surface temperature changes over the past century have been episodic and modest and there has been no net global warming for over a decade now.1,2 After controlling for population growth and property values, there has been no increase in damages from severe weather-related events.3 The computer models forecasting rapid temperature change abjectly fail to explain recent climate behavior.4 Mr. President, your characterization of the scientific facts regarding climate change and the degree of certainty informing the scientific debate is simply incorrect.
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"There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help jumpstart the economy."
--PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, JANUARY 9, 2009

Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we all support a big increase in the burden of government, we the [112] undersigned [economists] do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan’s "lost decade" in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policymakers should focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.

MaggieMae · #2 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

If you believe, as I do, that the American public is being fed a lot of questionable or flat out incorrect information so that the Administration will not be significantly challenged as it pushes through an unprecedented ambitious agenda, what can we the people do to force honest debate on the issues before they come to a vote?

Even aside from an impending crushing debt that will oppress generations to come, are we helpless to rein in an out-of-control government that threatens to overwhelm every aspect of our lives?

Please discuss.

Quote:

Cato Unbound

"Few challenges facing America and the world are more urgent than combating climate change.The science is beyond dispute and the facts are clear."
— PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, NOVEMBER 19 , 2008

With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true. We, the [100] undersigned scientists, maintain that the case for alarm regarding climate change is grossly overstated. Surface temperature changes over the past century have been episodic and modest and there has been no net global warming for over a decade now.1,2 After controlling for population growth and property values, there has been no increase in damages from severe weather-related events.3 The computer models forecasting rapid temperature change abjectly fail to explain recent climate behavior.4 Mr. President, your characterization of the scientific facts regarding climate change and the degree of certainty informing the scientific debate is simply incorrect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help jumpstart the economy."
--PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, JANUARY 9, 2009

Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we all support a big increase in the burden of government, we the [112] undersigned [economists] do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan’s "lost decade" in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policymakers should focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.

All of that, and much much more, is being discussed 24/7 by the publc and IS being "sufficiently challenged." Welcome to the world.

**Foxfyre** · #3 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 11:01 AM

I would like to believe you are right, MaggieMae, but the fact is we have a media who is not challenging President Obama or his surrogates when they make statements like that. We have a Congress who won't oppose him or call him on flat out misrepresentations of the truth whether or not he knows they are mistruths. We have a whole network of Obama supporters who are more than willing to keep repeating the same mistruths over and over in sound bites and talking points on these forums and elsewhere. And in many cases those who attempt to correct the record are trash-talked or shouted down or publicly humiliated and discredited. Just consider a few 'right wing' folks and how they have been treated by the press, teleivision, late night talk shows lately.

How many people do you think visit Cato Unbound to get a different point of view?

How many people are brave enough to speak out publicly and subject themselves to the inevitable personal scrutiny and attacks?

MaggieMae · #4 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

I would like to believe you are right, MaggieMae, but the fact is we have a media who is not challenging President Obama or his surrogates when they make statements like that. We have a Congress who won't oppose him or call him on flat out misrepresentations of the truth whether or not he knows they are mistruths. We have a whole network of Obama supporters who are more than willing to keep repeating the same mistruths over and over in sound bites and talking points on these forums and elsewhere. And in many cases those who attempt to correct the record are trash-talked or shouted down or publicly humiliated and discredited. Just consider a few 'right wing' folks and how they have been treated by the press, teleivision, late night talk shows lately.

How many people do you think visit Cato Unbound to get a different point of view?

How many people are brave enough to speak out publicly and subject themselves to the inevitable personal scrutiny and attacks?

You simply have not paid enough attention, Foxfyre. Even many Democrats are indeed challenging him. Just read some of the mountains of current articles on the fierce debate over health care and energy. Stay tuned.

**Foxfyre** · #5 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 11:30 AM

The Democrats in unsafe seats are challenging him on proposed programs and initiatives that are unpopular in those Democrats' districts. They are not willing to incur the wrath of their constituency just to support Obama. But they are challenging the initiatives on the basis that their constituency is not yet ready to accept it. They are not challenging the intiatives on the basis that the premise for support of them is wrong or is flat out misrepresented.

And, they are in a small minority.

Avatar4321 · #6 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 04:11 PM

Its not a government by me. But then I try not to pay too much attention to it. Self government is the best option and that governments available regardless what happens in Washington.

**Foxfyre** · #7 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321

Its not a government by me. But then I try not to pay too much attention to it. Self government is the best option and that governments available regardless what happens in Washington.

Well I can't agree that self-government is the best option given human propensity to do violence to other humans or trample on the Constitutional, legal, civil, or unalienable rights of others unless the is an enforceable consequence for that kind of behavior. So anarchy is not an option for a free people any more than a totalitarian or despotic government is the answer. But certainly the federal government should be restricted to doing only that which deters violence or trampling on the right sof others and that which cannot be done more efficiently and effectively by the private sector.

We, however, seem to have a congressional majority and administration that will take as much control over our choices and options as they possibly can and a media willing to look the other way while they do it.

There must be a way to wake people up, educate them on the issues, and get them to pay attention before the next election?

**xsited1** · #8 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

If you believe, as I do, that the American public is being fed a lot of questionable or flat out incorrect information so that the Administration will not be significantly challenged as it pushes through an unprecedented ambitious agenda, what can we the people do to force honest debate on the issues before they come to a vote?

Even aside from an impending crushing debt that will oppress generations to come, are we helpless to rein in an out-of-control government that threatens to overwhelm every aspect of our lives?

Please discuss.
...

It is true that the MSM has failed to hold the Obama Administration accountable for anything. They are simply 'useful idiots' for the Marxist government that Obama and his cronies are running. ABC's hour-long 'infomercial' on Obamacare was supposed to increase public debate on this issue, but then Michael Jackson died and it was all forgotten.

Still, Helen Thomas provides us a glimmer of hope:

Quote:

“Nixon didn’t try to do that,” Thomas said. “They couldn’t control (the media). They didn’t try. “What the hell do they think we are, puppets?” Thomas said. “They’re supposed to stay out of our business. They are our public servants. We pay them.” Thomas said she was especially concerned about the arrangement between the Obama Administration and a writer from the liberal Huffington Post Web site. The writer was invited by the White House to President Obama’s press conference last week on the understanding that he would ask Obama a question about Iran from among questions that had been sent to him by people in Iran. “When you call the reporter the night before you know damn well what they are going to ask to control you,” Thomas said. “I’m not saying there has never been managed news before, but this is carried to fare-thee-well–for the town halls, for the press conferences,” she said. “It’s blatant. They don’t give a damn if you know it or not. They ought to be hanging their heads in shame.”

Helen Thomas and Chip Reid Slam White House Control of Media | NewsBusters.org

I predict the Obama Administration will be the most corrupt administration in American History. I hope America can recover from it.

RodISHI · #9 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321

Its not a government by me. But then I try not to pay too much attention to it. Self government is the best option and that governments available regardless what happens in Washington.

Well I can't agree that self-government is the best option given human propensity to do violence to other humans or trample on the Constitutional, legal, civil, or unalienable rights of others unless the is an enforceable consequence for that kind of behavior. So anarchy is not an option for a free people any more than a totalitarian or despotic government is the answer. But certainly the federal government should be restricted to doing only that which deters violence or trampling on the right sof others and that which cannot be done more efficiently and effectively by the private sector.

We, however, seem to have a congressional majority and administration that will take as much control over our choices and options as they possibly can and a media willing to look the other way while they do it.

There must be a way to wake people up, educate them on the issues, and get them to pay attention before the next election?

The people gave themselves over long ago. It will take a lot of people standing as one to overcome the freedom that was given away and sold for little of nothing.

My dad always told me you could not fight city hall meaning any government entity. I disagreed with him and pressed on years ago when I was blacklisted for complaining about sexual harassment. It took me a few years to get up enough nerve to fight back after the good stomping I received by state employees and officials but it was well worth it. I did not sue anyone I did meet some fine people though in my quest for equality and the ability to support my children. Those fine people are still very near and dear friends of mine today. I was raised a Democrat as my family is union although it was Republicans that took me under their wings to protect me and my small business enterprise back in those years. They helped me be a free agent not bound to working for another business or person. That is the part of the Republican party I love and the portion they need to get back too.

I look at my situation today and know full well it was local state democrats that took me out in a very illegal manner here in the Midwest when I refused to sell my mining operation or partner with large corporates. In as much as things do change people will have to always stay on continual guard and watch for these ploys to steal more of their hard labor, their property and their wealth. It's time for people to stand together against the corrupt influences that have driven our country to the brink. If we do not our children and grandchildren will be nothing more than modern day slaves.

**Foxfyre** · #10 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 10:10 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by xsited1

It is true that the MSM has failed to hold the Obama Administration accountable for anything. They are simply 'useful idiots' for the Marxist government that Obama and his cronies are running. ABC's hour-long 'infomercial' on Obamacare was supposed to increase public debate on this issue, but then Michael Jackson died and it was all forgotten.

Still, Helen Thomas provides us a glimmer of hope:

I predict the Obama Administration will be the most corrupt administration in American History. I hope America can recover from it.

While I am not quite ready to say that the Obama Administration intends to be corrupt, I am convinced that they see a bland Marxist socialism as being the way government should be. I think like all extreme left wingers, they feel a subjective contempt for America and its original core values while I think they admire European style socialism a great deal. I think they are incapable of seeing how giving up the freedoms that the Founders built into the Constitution will extinguish the special spark that made the USA the great experiment that it has been. Our unique Constitution, as it was intended, made us one of the most successful nations that has ever been. It is my impression that the Obama Administration intends to dismantle some of the principles within in that allowed that to happen.

**Foxfyre** · #11 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by RodISHI

The people gave themselves over long ago. It will take a lot of people standing as one to overcome the freedom that was given away and sold for little of nothing.

I hear and understand your own frustrations dealing with corrupt government that is not held accountable. Still somebody once said that we get the kind of government we deserve. For too many years now too many of us good Americans have looked to our own interests and left politics and government to others. We complained about the jackasses in the Statehouse or Washington, but we didn't take any active role in doing anything about it. We too often don't attend the town hall meetings or volunteer to help a good candidate get elected or even put a sign up in yard or contribute to a brilliant unknown to help him/her gain name recognition.

And now we are paying the piper for our apathy and it is painful.

The Tea Parties are a good start. Keeping the pressure up on the blogs has also generated a bit of responsibility from the MSM in the past, and there is no reason to think it won't work again.

I am sufficiently concerned, that if we don't do it now, we won't be allowed to do it in the future. That's how bad I think things are becoming.

RodISHI · #12 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

Quote: Originally Posted by RodISHI

The people gave themselves over long ago. It will take a lot of people standing as one to overcome the freedom that was given away and sold for little of nothing.

I hear and understand your own frustrations dealing with corrupt government that is not held accountable. Still somebody once said that we get the kind of government we deserve. For too many years now too many of us good Americans have looked to our own interests and left politics and government to others. We complained about the jackasses in the Statehouse or Washington, but we didn't take any active role in doing anything about it. We too often don't attend the town hall meetings or volunteer to help a good candidate get elected or even put a sign up in yard or contribute to a brilliant unknown to help him/her gain name recognition.

And now we are paying the piper for our apathy and it is painful.

The Tea Parties are a good start. Keeping the pressure up on the blogs has also generated a bit of responsibility from the MSM in the past, and there is no reason to think it won't work again.

I am sufficiently concerned, that if we don't do it now, we won't be allowed to do it in the future. That's how bad I think things are becoming.

Speak for yourself. I have not been silently standing around all these years. We've paid heavily for standing on integrity, truth, honesty and the most basic rights we are supposed to be endowed with in this country over the years. If you think for one moment this is all new I have news for you it's been coming for a long time. At this point it has came to a head and people from all walks are unsure what to do as they see it getting worse and worse with no end in sight. I've known some pretty heavy hitters in the political arena over the years. They stayed in for a few years and then got out and stayed in the background. Good people I've know through the years have not always ran for political office because it is so corrupt or because they know what is ahead of them if they do step out into the limelight. That does not mean they don't care or have not been involved.

Have you ever been arrested for standing up for the truth, been arrested on false/bogus charges or threatened with arrest? I have.

I agree with you concerning people getting involved in the most simple means such as putting out a sign in their yard. I painted a banner one election year on four foot butcher paper twenty foot long and hung it on our fence. The sign could be seen from the highway. The man that the sign opposed still hates me this day for losing his seat. As do his buds. My family has been harassed by that certain click of people to the piont they ended up selling property at a discount for the trouble they received. People we knew that had knowledge of what happened to us when this guy went after our family hung signs all over their vehicles and drove around the county with those signs saying "Vote NO _____". The opposition went around cutting the "NO" part out of the signs that they could get to.

I know if people do not take a stand for the basics they will not have anything left to stand with. The new age government will tax the liberty right out of them and the few freedoms we have left in this country will come to a halt.

**Foxfyre** · #13 (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by RodISHI

Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

Quote: Originally Posted by RodISHI

The people gave themselves over long ago. It will take a lot of people standing as one to overcome the freedom that was given away and sold for little of nothing.

I hear and understand your own frustrations dealing with corrupt government that is not held accountable. Still somebody once said that we get the kind of government we deserve. For too many years now too many of us good Americans have looked to our own interests and left politics and government to others. We complained about the jackasses in the Statehouse or Washington, but we didn't take any active role in doing anything about it. We too often don't attend the town hall meetings or volunteer to help a good candidate get elected or even put a sign up in yard or contribute to a brilliant unknown to help him/her gain name recognition.

And now we are paying the piper for our apathy and it is painful.

The Tea Parties are a good start. Keeping the pressure up on the blogs has also generated a bit of responsibility from the MSM in the past, and there is no reason to think it won't work again.

I am sufficiently concerned, that if we don't do it now, we won't be allowed to do it in the future. That's how bad I think things are becoming.

Speak for yourself. I have not been silently standing around all these years. We've paid heavily for standing on integrity, truth, honesty and the most basic rights we are supposed to be endowed with in this country over the years. If you think for one moment this is all new I have news for you it's been coming for a long time. At this point it has came to a head and people from all walks are unsure what to do as they see it getting worse and worse with no end in sight. I've known some pretty heavy hitters in the political arena over the years. They stayed in for a few years and then got out and stayed in the background. Good people I've know through the years have not always ran for political office because it is so corrupt or because they know what is ahead of them if they do step out into the limelight. That does not mean they don't care or have not been involved.

Have you ever been arrested for standing up for the truth, been arrested on false/bogus charges or threatened with arrest? I have.

I agree with you concerning people getting involved in the most simple means such as putting out a sign in their yard. I painted a banner one election year on four foot butcher paper twenty foot long and hung it on our fence. The sign could be seen from the highway. The man that the sign opposed still hates me this day for losing his seat. As do his buds. My family has been harassed by that certain click of people to the piont they ended up selling property at a discount for the trouble they received. People we knew that had knowledge of what happened to us when this guy went after our family hung signs all over their vehicles and drove around the county with those signs saying "Vote NO _____". The opposition went around cutting the "NO" part out of the signs that they could get to.

I know if people do not take a stand for the basics they will not have anything left to stand with. The new age government will tax the liberty right out of them and the few freedoms we have left in this country will come to a halt.

Hmmm, this thread is even more pertinent now with "Cap and Trade" and "Universal Health Care" actively in the works.

I didn't mean "you" with my rhetorical "we", but good for you that you haven't been among the big group of 'let somebody else worry about it' or "I can't do anything about it" or 'huh?"

Your experience with harrassment for your beliefs and peaceful activism is unfortunate, and even more unfortunate that seems to be the way of the current Administration and supporters of the party in power. Anybody who criticizes or opposes or calls attention to questionable activity and gains any public traction at all will be attacked, smeared, trashed, and, if possible, destroyed. It doesn't seem to matter whether it is media figures or public personalities or hitherto unknown private citizens. Say anything publically against this Administration or its proposals and the odds look good they will come after you.

So what is the best way to stand up for what we believe that will be effective? How do we fight back?