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50 years later: has government dependency helped or hurt blacks?

This is a discussion on 50 years later: has government dependency helped or hurt blacks? within the Politics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle So you have "outrage" over the welfare system...but nowhere have I seen you voice that outrage. Instead you pontificate repeatedly ...


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Old 09-04-2013, 04:19 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post
So you have "outrage" over the welfare system...but nowhere have I seen you voice that outrage. Instead you pontificate repeatedly about how we need to address the wrongs that were done to blacks two hundred years ago? I ask again...how does examining the "roots" of racism in this country alleviate the very real problems that we face in the black community? Does that in anyway change the prevailing attitudes among young urban blacks that education and hard work are for "suckers"? You're so concerned with history that you're totally ignoring what's happening to young blacks NOW.

Absolutely, bravo.

Sincerely and adequately addressing the problems that young blacks are facing now, today, would require a hard look at black crime, the horrific percentage of fatherless families, and the "soft bigotry of reduced expectations". A democrat politician isn't likely to touch those issues with a ten foot pole, since they don't want to antagonize such an important voting constituency. Neither are so many of the black "leaders" whose very livelihood are based on the same constituency.

So they point the finger and talk about the past, it's all they have. Ignore the elephant in the room and remind us about slavery.

Does racism still exist? Obviously. But fixing our growing racial divide will require effort on both sides, and there's just not enough of that on the Left. It's just too easy and too profitable to point the finger.

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Old 09-04-2013, 04:21 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post

Your maintaining that the legacy of slavery is what's affecting young urban blacks in this country is laughable. The problem with inner city black's isn't something that was done to their great great grandfathers two hundred years ago.

Families were broken up as a result of slavery back then but families are broken up today as the result of a welfare system that encourages absentee fathers and unwed mothers raising kids on their own. Where is your outrage over that?
Its ok with me if you go ahead and laugh. Doesnt change the fact that you are wrong. It seems like we cant get past the first hurdle which is whites being comfortable with the fact the root of the problem is with slavery and racism. You dont have to do much other than say "ok that seems possible". I do have outrage over the welfare system but its really not relevant to discuss it if you cant even consider that I speak the truth regarding past slavery and racism today.
So when whites accept their "guilt" all this will change? Gee, since my great grandfather was an officer in the Massachusetts 54th infantry does that mean I get a pass on the slavery guilt thing or is my ancestor still guilty of "overt" racism even though he risked his life to end slavery?
When whites can face the facts and consider the thoughts of the very people they proclaim to want to help a discussion can go from there. Thats why we cant seem to talk because whites are too busy denying and back pedaling.
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:22 PM
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Not even when you were 5? What was that, about 395 years ago?
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Is that all you had to eat 400 years ago? You know, around the time the police officer put the arquebus up to your head?
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post
So you have "outrage" over the welfare system...but nowhere have I seen you voice that outrage. Instead you pontificate repeatedly about how we need to address the wrongs that were done to blacks two hundred years ago? I ask again...how does examining the "roots" of racism in this country alleviate the very real problems that we face in the black community? Does that in anyway change the prevailing attitudes among young urban blacks that education and hard work are for "suckers"? You're so concerned with history that you're totally ignoring what's happening to young blacks NOW.
The reason I pontificate. Is to explain the circumstances. You are too busy denying them to even comprehend what youre reading. You keep asking the same question in different ways. You are still going to get the same answer. There is a sequence of events that need to happen in order to discuss this honestly and openly between Whites and Blacks. First you need to clean your own house. Next you need to ask permission to pass judgement on mine. After that you need to accept what we know as the root cause of the issues. Lastly you need to stop assuming and attributing your own meaning to what I am saying. If you dont know I wont think less of you if you ask for clarification. As a matter of fact i will think more of person that comes in learning mode than know it all mode.
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:37 PM
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Actually none of that is true. Slavery in the Caribbean was pretty much as it was here. Slave families were not often broken up and after the war there were slaves who wandered the South looking for their families. Additionally black men were far more likely than white men to be married prior to WW2, and rates of single family parenthood have skyrocketed over the last 40 years, not gone down.

So pretty much your entire view is based on fallacies that you've been fed by Afro-centrists and others interested in keeping you enslaved and angry. I am sorry for it but not much I can really do here.
Thats not true. Slavery in the islands had totally different dynamics that you will need to read a book about to come close to comprehending. I actually did that instead of dismissing it. The breakup families was very common and used as punishment and a way to control slaves. To say otherwise is a lie. Also those that got to stay together had the joy of watching their men rendered ineffective and weak. Masters and overseers raped the wives and daughters of slaves frequently. You can pretty much guess how big and strong a black father would appear to his daughter and wife after such episodes. So it seems pretty much your entire view is based on your opinion and not facts. I was once told not to argue with a fool because I will always loose. The fool has too much pratice.
Only if your information comes from watching Roots and reading Uncle Tom's cabin. The reality was quite different.
Seeing as the stories were passed down by my ancestors i think I'll go with our rich tradition of oral re telling. My parents and grandparents are from Mississippi. I've heard first hand accounts. Then i went to the books written by Black authors that in turn either experienced it first hand or likewise had it handed down. To finish it off The Libary of Congress has actual audio recordings of slaves just backing up and validating the stories and literature I had already read. What makes more sense? Believe a white author that probably has ulterior motives or believe what my people said happened?
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:40 PM
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You push the whole "blame game" thing and then sit there and scratch your head because black teens respond to your message by doing less and expecting more. You're not doing these kids any favors. In fact you're dooming them to a life of underachievement and complacency. That's what concentrating on "root cause" gets you.

If you really cared about these kids you'd tell them that Life isn't fair...that they got dealt a bad hand and in order to overcome that they are going to have to work harder than most people. It's a message that wasn't given to many of their parents nor their grandparents and it's had a crippling effect on large portions of the black community.
Who is doing the "blame game"? A lot of times people that participate in risky anti-social behaviors , do so because they DON'T expect more and don't see or think about future and the consequences of their actions. The "root cause" of many problems for many types of individuals IS passed down from generation to generation, it's helping break that cycle that will achieve positive results.

Good points in your second paragraph, some of these people were given the message that "Life isn't fair", unfortunately for some people that's where the message stopped, thus that's where malaise and complacency as well as anti-social behaviors take over. For a large majority of the other people, like myself; the message continued that I was "going to have to work harder than most people." and that was the predominate message for most of the Black people I am related to and know as well as knew.
The "message" that has been given to several generations of urban blacks is that they are victims and should be compensated by society because they are victims. That's the message that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton preach repeatedly. The strength of America has always been the self reliance of our people. What we're witnessing now in this country is part of the population that's bought into the notion that bettering yourself through education and hard work is for suckers and chumps. If you're REALLY smart you can hang out and get paid for doing nothing.
For the life of me I cant find that sentiment expressed anywhere by Al Sharpton or jesse jackson. Can you provide a link to that so I can read it. Ive always know them to preach self reliance and speak out on injustices committed against the Black community. I did find this pretty easily though.

Sharpton encourages self-reliance during speech at NM Capitol - Silver City Sun-News
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:15 PM
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You push the whole "blame game" thing and then sit there and scratch your head because black teens respond to your message by doing less and expecting more. You're not doing these kids any favors. In fact you're dooming them to a life of underachievement and complacency. That's what concentrating on "root cause" gets you.

If you really cared about these kids you'd tell them that Life isn't fair...that they got dealt a bad hand and in order to overcome that they are going to have to work harder than most people. It's a message that wasn't given to many of their parents nor their grandparents and it's had a crippling effect on large portions of the black community.
Who is doing the "blame game"? A lot of times people that participate in risky anti-social behaviors , do so because they DON'T expect more and don't see or think about future and the consequences of their actions. The "root cause" of many problems for many types of individuals IS passed down from generation to generation, it's helping break that cycle that will achieve positive results.

Good points in your second paragraph, some of these people were given the message that "Life isn't fair", unfortunately for some people that's where the message stopped, thus that's where malaise and complacency as well as anti-social behaviors take over. For a large majority of the other people, like myself; the message continued that I was "going to have to work harder than most people." and that was the predominate message for most of the Black people I am related to and know as well as knew.
The "message" that has been given to several generations of urban blacks is that they are victims and should be compensated by society because they are victims. That's the message that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton preach repeatedly. The strength of America has always been the self reliance of our people. What we're witnessing now in this country is part of the population that's bought into the notion that bettering yourself through education and hard work is for suckers and chumps. If you're REALLY smart you can hang out and get paid for doing nothing.
I agree that some black people whether urban, suburban, and rural, have been given that message in one way or another. Martin Luther King Jr. said the same things, if one has a more than superficial knowledge of his works. As far as Jackson and Sharpton; I'm not either one of those guys, they have a right to preach whatever they preach. With some exceptions, they pretty much are advocating what MLK advocated.

I'm glad that it's only part of the population, a MINORITY of the population should define the MAJORITY of the population. I think that people who define the MAJORITY by the MINORITY, have a negative ulterior motive for doing so, it stinks. The people who fall into that trap are a minority of all people. I think that people who assume that "the Blacks" aren't trying to do anything to uplift themselves as INDIVIDUALS and people, are either ignorant or have some bias.

100 Black Men of America, Inc.
The MENTOR Program - National Forum for Black Public Administrators
Mentorship Is Earned, Not Owed - Black Enterprise
E-mentoring program aims to reduce dropout rate among Black males | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

There are plenty more of POSITIVE people and organizations, doing PLENTY of positive things.
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  #743 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:26 PM
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Who is doing the "blame game"? A lot of times people that participate in risky anti-social behaviors , do so because they DON'T expect more and don't see or think about future and the consequences of their actions. The "root cause" of many problems for many types of individuals IS passed down from generation to generation, it's helping break that cycle that will achieve positive results.

Good points in your second paragraph, some of these people were given the message that "Life isn't fair", unfortunately for some people that's where the message stopped, thus that's where malaise and complacency as well as anti-social behaviors take over. For a large majority of the other people, like myself; the message continued that I was "going to have to work harder than most people." and that was the predominate message for most of the Black people I am related to and know as well as knew.
The "message" that has been given to several generations of urban blacks is that they are victims and should be compensated by society because they are victims. That's the message that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton preach repeatedly. The strength of America has always been the self reliance of our people. What we're witnessing now in this country is part of the population that's bought into the notion that bettering yourself through education and hard work is for suckers and chumps. If you're REALLY smart you can hang out and get paid for doing nothing.
I agree that some black people whether urban, suburban, and rural, have been given that message in one way or another. Martin Luther King Jr. said the same things, if one has a more than superficial knowledge of his works. As far as Jackson and Sharpton; I'm not either one of those guys, they have a right to preach whatever they preach. With some exceptions, they pretty much are advocating what MLK advocated.

I'm glad that it's only part of the population, a MINORITY of the population should define the MAJORITY of the population. I think that people who define the MAJORITY by the MINORITY, have a negative ulterior motive for doing so, it stinks. The people who fall into that trap are a minority of all people. I think that people who assume that "the Blacks" aren't trying to do anything to uplift themselves as INDIVIDUALS and people, are either ignorant or have some bias.

100 Black Men of America, Inc.
The MENTOR Program - National Forum for Black Public Administrators
Mentorship Is Earned, Not Owed - Black Enterprise
E-mentoring program aims to reduce dropout rate among Black males | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

There are plenty more of POSITIVE people and organizations, doing PLENTY of positive things.
Its pretty evident by now that an honest discussion is not what some whites on this board want. They want to absolve their ancestors while at the same time validating themselves for having a racist stance on these issues. Whats funny is that they seem to be angry that Black people aren't eager to hear their solutions due to the way they approach the situation. Now because of your post they will either attack the validity or effectiveness of the organizations in your post or disappear from this thread for one trumped up reason or another.
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:30 PM
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You push the whole "blame game" thing and then sit there and scratch your head because black teens respond to your message by doing less and expecting more. You're not doing these kids any favors. In fact you're dooming them to a life of underachievement and complacency. That's what concentrating on "root cause" gets you.

If you really cared about these kids you'd tell them that Life isn't fair...that they got dealt a bad hand and in order to overcome that they are going to have to work harder than most people. It's a message that wasn't given to many of their parents nor their grandparents and it's had a crippling effect on large portions of the black community.
Who is doing the "blame game"? A lot of times people that participate in risky anti-social behaviors , do so because they DON'T expect more and don't see or think about future and the consequences of their actions. The "root cause" of many problems for many types of individuals IS passed down from generation to generation, it's helping break that cycle that will achieve positive results.

Good points in your second paragraph, some of these people were given the message that "Life isn't fair", unfortunately for some people that's where the message stopped, thus that's where malaise and complacency as well as anti-social behaviors take over. For a large majority of the other people, like myself; the message continued that I was "going to have to work harder than most people." and that was the predominate message for most of the Black people I am related to and know as well as knew.
The "message" that has been given to several generations of urban blacks is that they are victims and should be compensated by society because they are victims. That's the message that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton preach repeatedly. The strength of America has always been the self reliance of our people. What we're witnessing now in this country is part of the population that's bought into the notion that bettering yourself through education and hard work is for suckers and chumps. If you're REALLY smart you can hang out and get paid for doing nothing.
Here's a sample for "urban Blacks" and their poverty rate in New York:
“Among racial and ethnic groups, Hispanics recorded the highest poverty rate (26 percent), followed by Asians (25 percent), blacks (21.7 percent) and non-Hispanic whites (15.2 percent). Noncitizens had a higher rate (27.8 percent) than native-born (19.9 percent) and naturalized citizens (17.8 percent). "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/ny...2005.html?_r=0
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:47 PM
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Its ok with me if you go ahead and laugh. Doesnt change the fact that you are wrong. It seems like we cant get past the first hurdle which is whites being comfortable with the fact the root of the problem is with slavery and racism. You dont have to do much other than say "ok that seems possible". I do have outrage over the welfare system but its really not relevant to discuss it if you cant even consider that I speak the truth regarding past slavery and racism today.
So when whites accept their "guilt" all this will change? Gee, since my great grandfather was an officer in the Massachusetts 54th infantry does that mean I get a pass on the slavery guilt thing or is my ancestor still guilty of "overt" racism even though he risked his life to end slavery?
When whites can face the facts and consider the thoughts of the very people they proclaim to want to help a discussion can go from there. Thats why we cant seem to talk because whites are too busy denying and back pedaling.
Denying what? That slavery once existed and a war was fought to end it? A war in which over 600,000 Americans died...most of which were white...not black? The person that's guilty of "denying" is you! You steadfastly refuse to admit that the welfare state has destroyed the fabric of black urban America FAR more than some "overt" racism stemming from our slave past. You've bought into the culture of victimization and are oblivious to the harm that culture has engendered.
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:57 PM
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So when whites accept their "guilt" all this will change? Gee, since my great grandfather was an officer in the Massachusetts 54th infantry does that mean I get a pass on the slavery guilt thing or is my ancestor still guilty of "overt" racism even though he risked his life to end slavery?
When whites can face the facts and consider the thoughts of the very people they proclaim to want to help a discussion can go from there. Thats why we cant seem to talk because whites are too busy denying and back pedaling.
Denying what? That slavery once existed and a war was fought to end it? A war in which over 600,000 Americans died...most of which were white...not black? The person that's guilty of "denying" is you! You steadfastly refuse to admit that the welfare state has destroyed the fabric of black urban America FAR more than some "overt" racism stemming from our slave past. You've bought into the culture of victimization and are oblivious to the harm that culture has engendered.
Thats exactly what I mean. Basically your doing the equivalent of asking me why I have a headache and when i say its because you are yelling, you get mad and yell that its my own fault my head hurts. it couldn't possibly be because you are yelling.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asclepias View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Pheonixops View Post
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The "message" that has been given to several generations of urban blacks is that they are victims and should be compensated by society because they are victims. That's the message that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton preach repeatedly. The strength of America has always been the self reliance of our people. What we're witnessing now in this country is part of the population that's bought into the notion that bettering yourself through education and hard work is for suckers and chumps. If you're REALLY smart you can hang out and get paid for doing nothing.
I agree that some black people whether urban, suburban, and rural, have been given that message in one way or another. Martin Luther King Jr. said the same things, if one has a more than superficial knowledge of his works. As far as Jackson and Sharpton; I'm not either one of those guys, they have a right to preach whatever they preach. With some exceptions, they pretty much are advocating what MLK advocated.

I'm glad that it's only part of the population, a MINORITY of the population should define the MAJORITY of the population. I think that people who define the MAJORITY by the MINORITY, have a negative ulterior motive for doing so, it stinks. The people who fall into that trap are a minority of all people. I think that people who assume that "the Blacks" aren't trying to do anything to uplift themselves as INDIVIDUALS and people, are either ignorant or have some bias.

100 Black Men of America, Inc.
The MENTOR Program - National Forum for Black Public Administrators
Mentorship Is Earned, Not Owed - Black Enterprise
E-mentoring program aims to reduce dropout rate among Black males | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

There are plenty more of POSITIVE people and organizations, doing PLENTY of positive things.
Its pretty evident by now that an honest discussion is not what some whites on this board want. They want to absolve their ancestors while at the same time validating themselves for having a racist stance on these issues. Whats funny is that they seem to be angry that Black people aren't eager to hear their solutions due to the way they approach the situation. Now because of your post they will either attack the validity or effectiveness of the organizations in your post or disappear from this thread for one trumped up reason or another.

I agree, the people in question just want to slam "the Blacks". LOL, one ASSHOLE did that on a thread in the "Race Relations" forum! He posted a bunch of "Black groups" and proclaimed them as racists. They seem to have a great antagonistic resentment of "the Blacks". I noticed that many of "the Blacks" that meet their "approval list" tend to say stupid shit like this below:

"One of the things that I would do is take all black people back to the South and put them on the plantation so they would understand the ethic of working," (Jesse Lee) Peterson told The Huffington Post's Black Voices on Tuesday afternoon. "I'm going to put them all on the plantation. They need a good hard education on what it is to work." My response to him is to take HIS ass to a plantation and set the example FIRST.

This opinion piece sums it up quite well:
Allen West and the `plantation? card - The Plum Line - The Washington Post

Cain and West are intelligent guys, do you think that they think that they can bring "the Blacks" over to the republican party and conservatism, by making the SAME bigoted, inaccurate generalizations that their white counterparts make? All of this "The Blacks are on the democrat plantation" , "The Blacks are brainwashed", "The Blacks are all bad.", etc. Is just a "fancy" way of calling "The Blacks" outright NIGGERS. Plain and simple.
The minute those hucksters and stooges express a point that deviate from the above message, they treat them like General Powell and Michael Steele. I'm certainly not stating that the two aforementioned people were stooges and hucksters, that honor goes to peterson, cain, and west.
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Last edited by Pheonixops; 09-04-2013 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:26 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Pheonixops View Post
I agree, the people in question just want to slam "the Blacks". LOL, one ASSHOLE did that on a thread in the "Race Relations" forum! He posted a bunch of "Black groups" and proclaimed them as racists. They seem to have a great antagonistic resentment of "the Blacks". I noticed that many of "the Blacks" that meet their "approval list" tend to say stupid shit like this below:

"One of the things that I would do is take all black people back to the South and put them on the plantation so they would understand the ethic of working," (Jesse Lee) Peterson told The Huffington Post's Black Voices on Tuesday afternoon. "I'm going to put them all on the plantation. They need a good hard education on what it is to work." My response to him is to take HIS ass to a plantation and set the example FIRST.

This opinion piece sums it up quite well:
Allen West and the `plantation? card - The Plum Line - The Washington Post

Cain and West are intelligent guys, do you think that they think that they can bring "the Blacks" over to the republican party and conservatism, by making the SAME bigoted, inaccurate generalizations that their white counterparts make? All of this "The Blacks are on the democrat plantation" , "The Blacks are brainwashed", "The Blacks are all bad.", etc. Is just a "fancy" way of calling "The Blacks" outright NIGGERS. Plain and simple.
You have to remember that the uncle toms are by nature extremely intelligent if not dishonorable. They are out to save their own ass instead of whats best for their people. They would sell their daughter to a prostitution ring before losing out on favor from whites. I have no respect for people like that. Worse than the crabs in the ghetto.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:29 PM
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So you believe that separating black and white is the way to go??? At least the uncle toms want to better themselves and work with the rest of society.


I guess you want segregation.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
So you believe that separating black and white is the way to go??? At least the uncle toms want to better themselves and work with the rest of society.


I guess you want segregation.
That time has come and gone. I have white family members and friends. Thats not the answer. The question you should be asking is are whites willing to stop being so defensive about what the root cause is? Identifying the problem is half the battle. If that is not addressed there will continue to be an uneasy truce.

Uncle Toms are not honorable people. They dont want to work with society. They want to hitch a ride. If aliens flew into DC today promising a great life an Uncle tom would be the first to put down the human race attempting to curry favor.
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