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Obamacare vs. Economic Principles

This is a discussion on Obamacare vs. Economic Principles within the Politics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Originally meant to expand coverage, Obamacare will do exactly the opposite. Consumers act rationally under economic principles. Here is what will happen: asically, the idea ...


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Old 05-20-2013, 11:29 AM
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Obamacare vs. Economic Principles

Originally meant to expand coverage, Obamacare will do exactly the opposite. Consumers act rationally under economic principles. Here is what will happen:

Quote:
asically, the idea is that the young must purchase healthcare in the government pool, and because they will not be in need of much healthcare, the costs for older Americans decrease. As Holtz-Eakin puts it, "In effect, young Americans are supposed to be both key participants and the piggy banks of the expansion effort."

What Obama, Pelosi, and Democrats have failed to account for is that consumers will approach healthcare in the exchanges just as they would with any other product.

When you are standing in the grocery store trying to decide which cereal to buy, you first go for your preference, and then you look at the price. There is a certain price at which you decide that Captain Crunch isn't worth it, and you settle for the generic store brand.

The same will happen with younger Americans. Lacking healthcare issues and the need for immediate insurance, there will be a price point at which Americans will decide that they are better off paying the penalty instead of purchasing healthcare. Later on, if they are in a dire situation, they will purchase healthcare as needed. Empirical data provides evidence for this claim.

The American Action Forum sponsored a national poll of Americans aged 18 to 40 in March and April of this year. They were specifically interested in what effects various premium increased would have on a consumer's willingness to purchase healthcare coverage. Respondents were those who already purchase insurance and were supplied with specific information regarding the various scenarios covered in the poll.

Read the full article at Cameron Harris: Obamacare vs. Economic Principles ---The Young Won't Buy Healthcare
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by BlackFlag10 Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
Originally meant to expand coverage, Obamacare will do exactly the opposite. Consumers act rationally under economic principles. Here is what will happen:

Quote:
asically, the idea is that the young must purchase healthcare in the government pool, and because they will not be in need of much healthcare, the costs for older Americans decrease. As Holtz-Eakin puts it, "In effect, young Americans are supposed to be both key participants and the piggy banks of the expansion effort."

What Obama, Pelosi, and Democrats have failed to account for is that consumers will approach healthcare in the exchanges just as they would with any other product.

When you are standing in the grocery store trying to decide which cereal to buy, you first go for your preference, and then you look at the price. There is a certain price at which you decide that Captain Crunch isn't worth it, and you settle for the generic store brand.

The same will happen with younger Americans. Lacking healthcare issues and the need for immediate insurance, there will be a price point at which Americans will decide that they are better off paying the penalty instead of purchasing healthcare. Later on, if they are in a dire situation, they will purchase healthcare as needed. Empirical data provides evidence for this claim.

The American Action Forum sponsored a national poll of Americans aged 18 to 40 in March and April of this year. They were specifically interested in what effects various premium increased would have on a consumer's willingness to purchase healthcare coverage. Respondents were those who already purchase insurance and were supplied with specific information regarding the various scenarios covered in the poll.

Read the full article at Cameron Harris: Obamacare vs. Economic Principles ---The Young Won't Buy Healthcare

It is a good point but in practical reality under the Massachusetts law which has similar penalties, only 3.4% were uncovered in 2011.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:03 PM
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The ACA is going to be anything but affordable.

Hope those who put jackass back in the WH will be oh so happy with their higher hc costs. Its just to bad the rest of us are in the same boat.

All except for those that can't pay. We will be paying for the're hc as well as our own.


Way to go all you idiots who voted the jackass back into office.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:20 PM
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The costs of ObamaCare are going to be astronomical. However, Holtz-Eakin makes claims which are supplemental to this fact, and it is those which I challenge.

It must first be recognized that Holtz-Eakin and his American Action Forum are a right wing organization formed for the express purpose of achieving a GOP majority in Congress. So it is fair to say they have a very biased agenda. Therefore, their claims must be viewed in this light.

As OohPooPahDoo points out, Massachusetts has a similar mandate, with similar penalties for avoiding the mandate, and yet we do not see young people avoiding it in large numbers.

So we have a biased political organization's claims of what WILL happen, and we have the real world example of what HAS happened.

Which one do YOU believe?

Quote:
When it was implemented, about 8.4 percent of Massachusetts citizens were uninsured; by 2010, just 3 percent were uninsured. Uninsured rates fell most among minorities: In 2006, 15 percent of African-Americans were uninsured, in 2010, that rate was at 3.4 percent. Uninsured rates for Hispanics in the state fell from 20 percent to 9.2 percent during the same period.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:24 PM
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Something else Holtz-Eakin seems to have forgotten is that, under ObamaCare, young adults can stay on their parents' health insurance policies until they are 26.

The number of uninsured young adults is already dropping. Look at the 19-25 group below.

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http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...act-is-working
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:26 PM
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The costs of ObamaCare are going to be astronomical. However, Holtz-Eakin makes claims which are supplemental to this fact, and it is those which I challenge.

It must first be recognized that Holtz-Eakin and his American Action Forum are a right wing organization formed for the express purpose of achieving a GOP majority in Congress. So it is fair to say they have a very biased agenda. Therefore, their claims must be viewed in this light.

As OohPooPahDoo points out, Massachusetts has a similar mandate, with similar penalties for avoiding the mandate, and yet we do not see young people avoiding it in large numbers.

So we have a biased political organization's claims of what WILL happen, and we have the real world example of what HAS happened.

Which one do YOU believe?

Quote:
When it was implemented, about 8.4 percent of Massachusetts citizens were uninsured; by 2010, just 3 percent were uninsured. Uninsured rates fell most among minorities: In 2006, 15 percent of African-Americans were uninsured, in 2010, that rate was at 3.4 percent. Uninsured rates for Hispanics in the state fell from 20 percent to 9.2 percent during the same period.
We dont live in retarded massachusetts.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:28 PM
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The costs of ObamaCare are going to be astronomical. However, Holtz-Eakin makes claims which are supplemental to this fact, and it is those which I challenge.

It must first be recognized that Holtz-Eakin and his American Action Forum are a right wing organization formed for the express purpose of achieving a GOP majority in Congress. So it is fair to say they have a very biased agenda. Therefore, their claims must be viewed in this light.

As OohPooPahDoo points out, Massachusetts has a similar mandate, with similar penalties for avoiding the mandate, and yet we do not see young people avoiding it in large numbers.

So we have a biased political organization's claims of what WILL happen, and we have the real world example of what HAS happened.

Which one do YOU believe?

Quote:
When it was implemented, about 8.4 percent of Massachusetts citizens were uninsured; by 2010, just 3 percent were uninsured. Uninsured rates fell most among minorities: In 2006, 15 percent of African-Americans were uninsured, in 2010, that rate was at 3.4 percent. Uninsured rates for Hispanics in the state fell from 20 percent to 9.2 percent during the same period.
Mass is one state. We are talking about a country of 300 million people. False equivalence
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:29 PM
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The costs of ObamaCare are going to be astronomical. However, Holtz-Eakin makes claims which are supplemental to this fact, and it is those which I challenge.

It must first be recognized that Holtz-Eakin and his American Action Forum are a right wing organization formed for the express purpose of achieving a GOP majority in Congress. So it is fair to say they have a very biased agenda. Therefore, their claims must be viewed in this light.

As OohPooPahDoo points out, Massachusetts has a similar mandate, with similar penalties for avoiding the mandate, and yet we do not see young people avoiding it in large numbers.

So we have a biased political organization's claims of what WILL happen, and we have the real world example of what HAS happened.

Which one do YOU believe?

Quote:
When it was implemented, about 8.4 percent of Massachusetts citizens were uninsured; by 2010, just 3 percent were uninsured. Uninsured rates fell most among minorities: In 2006, 15 percent of African-Americans were uninsured, in 2010, that rate was at 3.4 percent. Uninsured rates for Hispanics in the state fell from 20 percent to 9.2 percent during the same period.
We dont live in retarded massachusetts.
That's all you got? That's your best shot?

ObamaCare is modeled after RomneyCare.


We really should look at the American Action Forum's polling data before drinking their piss. Did they inform the young people they polled that ObamaCare subsidizes their health insurance if they earn up to 400% above the poverty level?

Since younger people earn the smallest incomes, most of them are going to have their insurance premiums subsidized considerably.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:34 PM
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Young Adults? Insurance Decisions Dependent on Cost | American Action Forum

Notice the gigantic assumptions American Action Forum made:
Quote:
Among currently insured respondents, if out-of-pocket premium costs increase even 10 percent, 17 percent of respondents would discontinue coverage and pay the penalty indefinitely, or until an illness prompted them to sign up for coverage. If premiums increase by 30 percent, only 55 percent would continue purchasing coverage, and 45 percent would go without.
The article is completely silent about the fact that people whose incomes are up to 400% above poverty level will see their insurance premiums subsidized by the federal government. Many of these young people will get insurance for FREE!

Let's see THAT polling chart! "How likely will you be to get health insurance if it is free?" "How likely will you be to keep your health insurance if your out of pocket costs DROP by 30 percent?"
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Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one. - Charles Mackay

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:38 PM
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ObamaCare gives away the store. This is why it is going to bankrupt the federal AND state governments.

But as long as organizations like the American Action Forum make completely bogus claims, the Right will never get its footing.

Stop the lies. Liberals only succeed because the Right lies its ****ing ass off every goddam day.

The truth would slay the Left in its tracks. When will the ****ing maniacs who have hijacked the GOP ever figure this out?

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We have so many people who can't see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one. - Ronald Reagan

Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one. - Charles Mackay
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:40 PM
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ObamaCare gives away the store. This is why it is going to bankrupt the federal AND state governments.

But as long as organizations like the American Action Forum make completely bogus claims, the Right will never get its footing.

Stop the lies. Liberals only succeed because the Right lies its ****ing ass off every goddam day.

The truth would slay the Left in its tracks. When will the ****ing maniacs who have hijacked the GOP ever figure this out?

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The right has tried to make the argument that Obamacare will bankrupt everyone from businesses to the state and federal governments. No one seems to be listening to that claim, so it is reasonable to pursue others until something gains footing that makes people realize, "Hey, maybe this wasn't such a good idea."

I am not agreeing that these claims are bogus. I am just saying that Repubs are now having to think outside of the box for ways to teach Americans what is going to happen.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:21 PM
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Don't worry. All Americans are going to find that out soon enough.

The ACA is going to be anything but affordable.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:27 PM
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The ACA is going to be anything but affordable.

Hope those who put jackass back in the WH will be oh so happy with their higher hc costs. Its just to bad the rest of us are in the same boat.

All except for those that can't pay. We will be paying for the're hc as well as our own.


Way to go all you idiots who voted the jackass back into office.
I have posted this frequently as an example of if Obama can't believe his own Census, and he had to GIVE a false impression to have Obamacare pass by ONLY six votes.. It is pure ignorance!

Premise:The following statement is a BALD FACE LIE:
Obama said: "We are not a nation that accepts nearly 46 million uninsured men, women and children,"
46 Million Uninsured: A Look Behind The Number : NPR

THE following FACTS show there are 4 million truly uninsured that WANT insurance! NOT 46 million!

FACT STATISTICS:
GIVEN: The Census bureau says 10 million of the 46 million "uninsured' are not citizens
Subtract 10 million from 46 million leaves 36 million… NOT 46 million!
Source: Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2009 - Income & Wealth - Newsroom - U.S. Census Bureau
10 million are not citizens!

GIVEN: 14 million are eligible for Medicaid..but they are counted as "uninsured"….
but Obama totally ignored this FACT and subtracting 14 million from 36 million that leaves 22 million…

Source: http://coverageforall.org/pdf/BC-BS_...ed-America.pdf
Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association contracted with the Actuarial Research Corporation (ARC) to provide a detailed analysis of the uninsured identified by the Census Bureau, which found:
- Of the 44.7 million non-elderly uninsured individuals identified in the 2004 Census Current Population Survey (CPS) data,
nearly one-third — almost 14 million — were reachable through existing government
health programs such as Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) under current rules.

REACHABLE meaning all these people had to do was enroll! NO money. NO risks! Just enroll! 14 million already eligible only need to register with MEDICAID!

So far we've reduced the 46 million by 10 million NON-Citizens, 14 million that simply had to enroll as they were covered by Medicaid!

That leaves 22 million!

The last time I checked as an American I had the right NOT to buy health insurance!

18 million people declaring that right!

They are under age 34. They make over $50,000 a year. They decide it is cheaper just to pay out of pocket the average of $1,000 per year for their health needs then take up their employers' health plan.
Their credit rating depends on their paying their bills . They pay their own way! They are NOT FREE-LOADERS as Pelosi calls them!
Source: CRISIS OF THE UNINSURED: 2009

So 10 million not citizens, 14 million COVERED by Medicaid and 18 million that don't want: equals 42 million!
That leaves 4 million that want and need insurance... NOT 46 million which Obamacare was passed on ignorantly!

I've asked so many times but NO ONE HAS proven differently! Why are we counting illegal aliens as uninsured when they are NOT eligible!
Why are we counting 14 million that only need to register with Medicaid. No money. No tests. Register!

Finally WHY are we forcing 18 million people to buy a service that is NOT NEEDED by them? It is totally wrong and totally stupid to think as these idiots do that
this will increase the "POOL"! Idiots!
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:46 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by BlackFlag10 Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
ObamaCare gives away the store. This is why it is going to bankrupt the federal AND state governments.

But as long as organizations like the American Action Forum make completely bogus claims, the Right will never get its footing.

Stop the lies. Liberals only succeed because the Right lies its ****ing ass off every goddam day.

The truth would slay the Left in its tracks. When will the ****ing maniacs who have hijacked the GOP ever figure this out?

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The right has tried to make the argument that Obamacare will bankrupt everyone from businesses to the state and federal governments. No one seems to be listening to that claim, so it is reasonable to pursue others until something gains footing that makes people realize, "Hey, maybe this wasn't such a good idea."

I am not agreeing that these claims are bogus. I am just saying that Repubs are now having to think outside of the box for ways to teach Americans what is going to happen.
They were never in the box. Because they are too retarded to comprehend ObamaCare, they decided to just make **** up about it.

And that is why we have ObamaCare today.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by BlackFlag10 Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
The costs of ObamaCare are going to be astronomical. However, Holtz-Eakin makes claims which are supplemental to this fact, and it is those which I challenge.

It must first be recognized that Holtz-Eakin and his American Action Forum are a right wing organization formed for the express purpose of achieving a GOP majority in Congress. So it is fair to say they have a very biased agenda. Therefore, their claims must be viewed in this light.

As OohPooPahDoo points out, Massachusetts has a similar mandate, with similar penalties for avoiding the mandate, and yet we do not see young people avoiding it in large numbers.

So we have a biased political organization's claims of what WILL happen, and we have the real world example of what HAS happened.

Which one do YOU believe?

Quote:
When it was implemented, about 8.4 percent of Massachusetts citizens were uninsured; by 2010, just 3 percent were uninsured. Uninsured rates fell most among minorities: In 2006, 15 percent of African-Americans were uninsured, in 2010, that rate was at 3.4 percent. Uninsured rates for Hispanics in the state fell from 20 percent to 9.2 percent during the same period.
Mass is one state. We are talking about a country of 300 million people. False equivalence
Massachusetts is a real world example of the real choices people make, not the false choices offered by the partisan hacks at American Action Forum. Massachussets has the same health insurance mandate, and the same lax penalties for not participating. And we see the choices the people made are nothing like the AAF is attempting to predict. And that is because they totally fudged their data and their scenario into a completely bogus hypothetical.

So go right ahead and continue to deceive yourself the AAF knows what it is talking about. Live in that fantasy world. The rest of us live in the real one.



As I have pointed out in further posts, the AAF completely ignored the real results of ObamaCare that are already happening which completely refute their fantasy world fake poll choices.

The number of uninsured young adults has already dropped significantly. This is a simple fact that no amount of piss and bull**** by the AAF can conceal. So stop consuming it and fight the Left with real facts and the truth.
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We have so many people who can't see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one. - Ronald Reagan

Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one. - Charles Mackay

Last edited by g5000; 05-20-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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