US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

In Which We Travel from North Korea to Iran to the Senate Floor

This is a discussion on In Which We Travel from North Korea to Iran to the Senate Floor within the Politics forums, part of the US Discussion category; by Stephen Green March 7th, 2013 Kim Jong “Trey” Un is threatening to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on the United States. This from the ...


Go Back   US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum > US Discussion > Politics

Politics Discuss government policies and candidates...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2013, 01:09 AM
Wehrwolfen's Avatar
Registered User
Member #37294
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,752
Thanks: 2,448
Thanked 722 Times in 532 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 483
Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness Wehrwolfen may be on a path to greatness
In Which We Travel from North Korea to Iran to the Senate Floor

by Stephen Green
March 7th, 2013

Kim Jong “Trey” Un is threatening to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on the United States. This from the country whose rockets can deliver a payload of a single Juicy Fruit stick a distance of feet. That is, when they don’t fail spectacularly shortly after launch. His most compact nuke fits snugly into a cave.

So, good luck with that, Kimmie Baby.

Did President Obama somehow bring on all the bluster? Nope. This is much more (everything, really) about North Korean domestic politics, such as it is, than about anything the administration has or hasn’t said or done. Besides, I didn’t go in for the whole “Why Do They Hate Us?” meme after 9/11, and I’m certainly not going to get into now. Crazy Nork dictators are crazy Nork dictators. We’ve had that lesson drilled into use since 1950.

The thought does occur that Kim is acting as a stalking horse for Iran. He waves around his sort-of-real nuclear arsenal while Iran watches for the American response — and revs up a few more cyclotrons. It’s certainly possible, but I don’t know that even Crazy Kim III is capable of stirring up enough stuff for Iran to learn anything about us they don’t already know. Besides, it’s pretty clear that we won’t be going to war against Iran no matter what.

The “won’t be going to war” is the good news. The “no matter what” is the bad news. Because that part does broadcast American weakness, to enemies much more effective and dangerous than the Mad Mullahs.

Then you notice that we have an administration (and a Democratic Senate) unwilling to do much to disarm Iran, but willing to do plenty to disarm American citizens. And you have to ask yourself, “What the hell message does that send to the world?” The Newtown shooter might just have been the ultimate stealth stalking horse — if that’s not an oxymoron.

I suppose the message, if any, is this: America’s elites are now just like any other country’s elites. That is, jealous of their own prerogatives and spiteful of the people’s unalienable rights. I realize that nowhere does the Constitution recognize a right to not get blown up sitting in a café by a remote-control Hellfire missile, but surely there must be a penumbra around there somewhere to cover that.

Which brings us to Rand Paul and his stellar filibuster performance on Wednesday. If you want an argument against filibuster reform, you won’t find a better one than the 12-plus-hour demonstration put on by the young senator from Kentucky. As I tweeted yesterday, I’ve been watching politics for 33 of my almost 44 years, and rarely have I been inspired by a politician like I was yesterday.



[Excerpt]

Read more:
Vodkapundit » In Which We Travel from North Korea to Iran to the Senate Floor
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Wehrwolfen For This Useful Post:
waltky (03-12-2013)
Sponsored Links
USMessageBoard.com is the premier Political Forum Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see these ads. Please Register - It's Free!
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2013, 01:22 AM
there4eyeM's Avatar
unlicensed metaphysician
Member #38058
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,590
Thanks: 760
Thanked 764 Times in 568 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 311
there4eyeM has disabled reputation
The hypocrisy of calling for intervention in Iran and not N.K. is clear.
Intervention in either place is probably not the best answer.

Communication with the culture and people of Iran would be easier for us than the same with N.K. We should use every means to do that in the friendliest way possible. After all, the government is one thing and the people another, and not only in the US.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to there4eyeM For This Useful Post:
waltky (03-12-2013)
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:07 PM
waltky's Avatar
Supporting Member
Member #27951
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Okolona, KY
Posts: 11,017
Thanks: 12,261
Thanked 1,318 Times in 1,085 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 1208
waltky could be on the Supreme Court
waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court
Angry

No. Korea's threat is it's unpredictability...

US officials say North Korea poses serious threat
March 12, 2013 WASHINGTON — An unpredictable North Korea, with its nuclear weapons and missile programs, stands as a serious threat to the United States and East Asia nations, the director of National Intelligence warned Tuesday in a sober assessment of worldwide threats.
Quote:
Testifying before a Senate panel, James R. Clapper delivered the U.S. intelligence community's overview of global threats posed by terrorism, cyber attacks, weapons of mass destruction, the months-long civil war in Syria and the unsettled situation in post-Arab Spring nations.

The outlook on North Korea comes as the communist regime announced that it was "completely scrapping" the 1953 armistice that ended the Korean War and has maintained peace on the peninsula for more than half a century. The Obama administration on Monday slapped new sanctions against North Korea's primary exchange bank and several senior government officials as it expressed concern about the North's "bellicose rhetoric." "The Intelligence community has long assessed that, in Pyongyang's view, its nuclear capabilities are intended for deterrence, international prestige and coercive diplomacy. We do not know Pyongyang's nuclear doctrine or employment concepts," Clapper told the Senate Intelligence Committee. "Although we assess with low confidence that the North would only attempt to use nuclear weapons against U.S. forces or allies to preserve the Kim regime, we do not know what would constitute, from the North's perspective, crossing that threshold."


Look, new wifey-poo, see me with all my army buddies?

North Korea, led by its young leader Kim Jong Un, has defied the international community in the last three months, testing an intercontinental ballistic missile and a third nuclear bomb. Pressed on North Korea, Clapper said he was "very concerned about the actions of the new young leader." He described the talk emanating from Pyongyang as "very belligerent." "The rhetoric, while propaganda-laced, is an indicator of their attitude," Clapper said. Testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee, the general in charge of U.S. Strategic Command said he is "satisfied" that existing U.S. missile defenses can defend against a limited attack from North Korea. Air Force Gen. Robert Kehler also said he is confident the country is adequately defended from a limited attack by Iran, "although we are not in the most optimum posture to do that today."

In Syria, President Bashar Assad's inability to quash the uprising in his country increases the possibility that he will use chemical weapons against his people, Clapper said. "We assess that an increasingly beleaguered regime, having found its escalation of violence through conventional means inadequate, might be prepared to use chemical weapons against the Syrian people," he said. "In addition, groups or individuals in Syria could gain access to chemical weapons-related material."

MORE
__________________
Kinda funny how, instead of a 'sequester', the Wall Street bankers got bailed out.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to waltky For This Useful Post:
Wehrwolfen (03-12-2013)
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 10:13 PM
waltky's Avatar
Supporting Member
Member #27951
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Okolona, KY
Posts: 11,017
Thanks: 12,261
Thanked 1,318 Times in 1,085 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 1208
waltky could be on the Supreme Court
waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court
Wink

Granny says tell dat new Chinese president to smack lil' Kim an' on top o' the head an' tell him to knock it off...

China: US missile defense 'antagonizes' North Korea
March 18, 2013 WASHINGTON — As tensions mount over North Korea’s developing nuclear program, China is warning the United States that its plans to beef up missile defenses could cause more problems.
Quote:
“Bolstering missile defenses will only intensify antagonism, and it doesn’t help to solve the issue,” Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesman Hong Lei said Monday in Beijing, according to a CNN report. On Friday, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel announced a nearly $1 billion plan to install 14 additional ground-based interceptors at Fort Greely, Alaska, raising the number of West Coast-based interceptors to 44.

Rather than stepping back, however, defense officials in Washington on Monday reminded North Korea of the power of the weaponry arrayed against it, pointing out that a nuclear capable B-52 bomber flying from Guam had flown over South Korea on March 8 in a routine exercise. “We are in the midst right now of sending a very strong signal that we have a firm commitment to the alliance with our Republic of Korea allies,” Pentagon press secretary George Little told reporters. “This is a stepped-up training effort to demonstrate our resolve to protect South Korea and to try to preserve peace and stability on the Korean peninsula.”

Hagel said Friday that North Korea “has recently made advances in its capabilities and is engaged in a series of irresponsible and reckless provocations.” The United States also will study locations for a new missile interceptor complex, he announced, and forge ahead with plans to install another early warning missile-defense radar in Japan. The Pentagon said the moves are a response to the increasing sophistication of North Korea’s nuclear program the nation is moving quickly to develop both its warhead technology and the long-range rocket capability needed to carry out long-distance strikes.

MORE
__________________
Kinda funny how, instead of a 'sequester', the Wall Street bankers got bailed out.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2013, 03:16 PM
waltky's Avatar
Supporting Member
Member #27951
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Okolona, KY
Posts: 11,017
Thanks: 12,261
Thanked 1,318 Times in 1,085 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 1208
waltky could be on the Supreme Court
waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court
Red face

Granny says, "Big deal - big talk, lil' Yap...

North Korea says it's in "state of war" with South Korea
March 30, 2013 – North Korea said Saturday it had entered "a state of war" with South Korea in its latest threat aimed at the United States and its ally after two American B-2 bombers flew a training mission in the region.
Quote:
"From this time on, the North-South relations will be entering the state of war and all issues raised between the North and the South will be handled accordingly," said a statement carried by the official North Korean news agency, according to a Reuters report. The joint statement by the government, political parties and organizations said North Korea will deal with all matters involving South Korea according to "wartime regulations." It also warned it will retaliate against any provocations by the United States and South Korea without "any prior notice."

The divided Korean Peninsula is already in a technical state of war because the 1950-53 Korean War ended in a cease-fire, not a peace treaty. But Pyongyang said it was scrapping the war armistice earlier this month. Reuters reported that North Korea's statement said it would respond "without mercy" to any action by South Korea that harmed its sovereignty, indicating it was not about to mount a pre-emptive strike.



Analysts say a full-scale conflict is extremely unlikely and North Korea's threats are instead aimed at drawing Washington into talks that could result in aid and boosting leader Kim Jong Un's image at home. But the harsh rhetoric from North Korea and rising animosity from the rivals that have followed U.N. sanctions over Pyongyang's Feb. 12 nuclear test have raised worries of a misjudgment leading to a clash. South Korea's Unification Ministry released a statement saying the latest threat wasn't new and was just a follow-up to Kim's earlier order to put troops on a high alert in response to annual U.S-South Korean military drills. Pyongyang sees those drills as rehearsals for an invasion; the allies call them routine and defensive.

In an indication North Korea is not immediately considering starting a war, officials in Seoul said South Korean workers continued Saturday to cross the border to their jobs at a joint factory park in North Korea that's funded by South Koreans On Friday, North Korean leader Kim Jong Un warned his forces were ready "to settle accounts with the U.S." after two nuclear-capable U.S. B-2 bombers dropped dummy munitions on a South Korean island range as part of joint drills and returned to their base in Missouri.

Read more: North Korea says it's in "state of war" with South Korea | Fox News
See also:

U.S. Defense officials: North Korean threats are 'bellicose rhetoric'
March 30, 2013 -- Beijing is "likely to try to calm things down," Sweden's foreign minister says; South takes "seriously" north's threat to jeopardize joint Kaesong economic zone; The Pentagon says North Korean threats follow a familiar pattern; North Korea threatens "all-out war and nuclear war" on its enemies, state news reports
Quote:
North Korea's threatening rhetoric has reached a fever pitch, but the Pentagon and the South Korean government have said it's nothing new. "We have no indications at this point that it's anything more than warmongering rhetoric," a senior Washington Defense official said late Friday. The official was not authorized to speak to the media and asked not to be named.

The National Security Council, which advises the U.S. president on matters of war, struck a similar cord. Washington finds North Korea's statements "unconstructive," and it does take the threats seriously. "But, we would also note that North Korea has a long history of bellicose rhetoric and threats, and today's announcement follows that familiar pattern," said Caitlin Hayden, a spokeswoman for the security council. The United States will continue to update its capabilities against any military threat from the North, which includes plans to deploy missile defense systems.

North Korea's hot rhetoric

Pyongyang's propaganda machine flung new insults at the United States on Saturday. It compared the U.S. mainland with a "boiled pumpkin," unable to endure an attack from a foreign foe, the state-run Korean Central News Agency reported. North Korea, on the other hand, could sustain an offensive from the outside, the report said. It claimed the government had built shelters around the country "against any enemy nuclear and chemical weapons attack." The rhetoric and military show of force by the North have heated up in the face of annual joint military exercise between South Korean and U.S. forces called Foal Eagle. The routine maneuvers are carried out in accordance with the armistice that put an end to armed hostilities in 1953. There was no peace treaty to officially end the war.

The North Korean government declared the armistice invalid on March 11, 10 days after Foal Eagle began. It is something Pyongyang has done before during heightened tensions. In an added slap, North Korea has declared that it had entered a "state of war" with neighboring South Korea, according to a report Saturday from the state-run Korean Central News Agency. "The condition, which was neither war nor peace, has ended," North Korea's government said in a special statement carried by KCNA. Saturday's reports also asserted any conflict "will not be limited to a local war, but develop into an all-out war, a nuclear war." The statements made the prospect of war contingent upon "a military provocation ... against the DPRK" in sensitive areas on the border between North and South.

The South: It's not new
__________________
Kinda funny how, instead of a 'sequester', the Wall Street bankers got bailed out.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2013, 04:26 PM
waltky's Avatar
Supporting Member
Member #27951
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Okolona, KY
Posts: 11,017
Thanks: 12,261
Thanked 1,318 Times in 1,085 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 1208
waltky could be on the Supreme Court
waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court waltky could be on the Supreme Court
Red face

Ban pushin' the panic button...

UN chief Ban: Korea crisis could become 'uncontrollable'
9 April 2013 - UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has warned the crisis on the Korean peninsula may become "uncontrollable".
Quote:
He once again urged North Korea to tone down its "provocative rhetoric" and to keep open a joint North-South Korean industrial complex. Also on Tuesday, North Korea warned foreigners in South Korea to take evacuation measures in case of war. Pyongyang has been making bellicose threats against South Korea, Japan and US bases in the region.

Speaking to reporters in Rome, Mr Ban said: "If any small incident is caused by miscalculation or misjudgement, it may create an uncontrollable situation.'' He also called for the Kaesong Industrial Complex to be kept open, calling it "one of the most successful cooperative projects between the South and North". "This should not be affected by political considerations. This is a purely economic place," he went on. North Korean employees did not report for work at the complex on Tuesday, suspending one of the few points of co-operation between North and South Korea.

Warning to foreigners

Meanwhile, a statement attributed to Pyongyang's Asia-Pacific Peace Committee on Tuesday said: "The situation on the Korean peninsula is heading for a thermo-nuclear war. "In the event of war, we don't want foreigners living in South Korea to get hurt." The statement urged "all foreign organisations, companies and tourists to work out measures for evacuation". Last Friday, Pyongyang warned it would not be able to guarantee the safety of embassy staff in the event of a war.

No foreign embassies immediately announced plans to evacuate, and the UK and Russian embassies have said they have no plans to shut their embassies. The United States, which has also been threatened by Pyongyang, has said there were no imminent signs of threats to American citizens.

Fiery rhetoric
See also:

No sense of panic in NKorean capital
Apr 9,`13 -- Scores of North Koreans of all ages planted trees as part of a forestation campaign - armed with shovels, not guns. In the evening, women in traditional dress danced in the plazas to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the late leader Kim Jong Il's appointment to a key defense post.
Quote:
Despite another round of warnings from their leaders of impending nuclear war, there was no sense of panic in the capital on Tuesday. Chu Kang Jin, a Pyongyang resident, said everything is calm in the city. "Everyone, including me, is determined to turn out as one to fight for national reunification ... if the enemies spark a war," he added, using nationalist rhetoric common among many North Koreans when speaking to the media. The North's latest warning, issued by its Asia-Pacific Peace Committee, urged foreign companies and tourists to leave South Korea. "The situation on the Korean Peninsula is inching close to a thermonuclear war due to the evermore undisguised hostile actions of the United States and the South Korean puppet warmongers and their moves for a war against" North Korea, the committee said in a statement carried by state media on Tuesday.

There was no sign of an exodus of foreign companies or tourists from South Korea. White House spokesman Jay Carney called the statement "more unhelpful rhetoric." "It is unhelpful, it is concerning, it is provocative," he said. The warning appeared to be an attempt to scare foreigners into pressing their governments to pressure Washington and Seoul to act to avert a conflict. Analysts see a direct attack on Seoul as extremely unlikely, and there are no overt signs that North Korea's army is readying for war, let alone a nuclear one. North Korea has been girding for a showdown with the U.S. and South Korea, its wartime foes, for months. The Korean War ended in 1953 with an armistice, not a peace treaty, leaving the peninsula still technically at war.

In December, North Korea launched a satellite into space on a rocket that Washington and others called a cover for a long-range missile test. The North followed that with an underground nuclear test in February, a step toward mastering the technology for mounting an atomic bomb on a missile. Tightened U.N. sanctions that followed drew the ire of North Korea, which accused Washington and Seoul of leading the campaign against it. Annual U.S.-South Korean military drills south of the border have further incensed Pyongyang, which sees them as practice for an invasion. Last week, North Korean leader Kim Jong Un enshrined the pursuit of nuclear weapons - which the North characterizes as a defense against the U.S. - as a national goal, along with improving the economy. North Korea also declared it would restart a mothballed nuclear complex.

Adm. Samuel Locklear, commander of U.S. Pacific Command, told the Senate Armed Services Committee in Washington on Tuesday that he concurred with an assessment by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., calling the tension between North Korea and the West the worst since the end of the Korean War. "The continued advancement of the North's nuclear and missile programs, its conventional force posture, and its willingness to resort to asymmetric actions as a tool of coercive diplomacy creates an environment marked by the potential for miscalculation," Locklear told the panel. He said the U.S. military and its allies would be ready if North Korea tries to strike. Heightening speculation about a provocation, foreign diplomats reported last week that they had been advised by North Korea to consider evacuating by Wednesday. However, Britain and others said they had no immediate plans to withdraw from Pyongyang.

MORE
__________________
Kinda funny how, instead of a 'sequester', the Wall Street bankers got bailed out.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2013, 04:33 PM
g5000's Avatar
Registered User
Member #34052
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 20,760
Thanks: 44
Thanked 7,958 Times in 5,030 Posts
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 3642
g5000 has a reputation beyond repute
g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute g5000 has a reputation beyond repute
Lil Kim creates a staged photo of him holding an Acme Corporation Sooper Sekrit War Planz map, and the American media does the rest for him.

The manufactured threat and reality are widely divergent.

__________________
.


We have so many people who can't see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one. - Ronald Reagan

Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one. - Charles Mackay

Last edited by g5000; 04-09-2013 at 04:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2013, 07:06 PM
Billo_Really's Avatar
Litre of the Band!
Member #2873
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Posts: 13,235
Thanks: 412
Thanked 3,445 Times in 2,723 Posts
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 951
Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve
Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve Billo_Really could run the Federal Reserve
Quote: Originally Posted by there4eyeM View Post
Intervention in either place is probably not the best answer.
Intervention in either place is illegal.
__________________


“I'm a kind, sensitive person, who cares
about the feelings of others, you asshole!”
Reply With Quote
Reply


Lower Navigation
Go Back   US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum > US Discussion > Politics
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:04 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.