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The Right To Bear Arms

This is a discussion on The Right To Bear Arms within the Politics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Abatis Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota The 2nd Amendment is simply whatever SCOTUS says it is. SCOTUS has redefined it before ...


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  #211 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 10:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Abatis View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
The 2nd Amendment is simply whatever SCOTUS says it is. SCOTUS has redefined it before and will redefine it again.
SCOTUS has never wavered in its determinations / explanations of the right to arms and the 2nd Amendment (two distinct, separate things).

SCOTUS has never held that the right has any dependency on the 2nd Amendment (or "interpretation" of it) because the Court has always held that the right pre-existed the Constitution thus is not granted, given, created or established by the Constitution . . . In the words of the Court:
  • "[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."
So the obvious question is, why do you persist in inventing conditions, qualifications, restrictions and constraints on the right from words that have absolutely no effect on the right? (besides the obvious reasons, profound ignorance (at best) or unabashed hostility for the Constitution (at worst))

Even more to the point, after nearly 140 years of holding that the right to arms does not "in any manner" depend on the words of the 2nd, what makes you think that the Court will do a 180° switcheroo?
Things change. Shit happens. People evolve...
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  #212 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 11:36 PM
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CONFUSION: The Wording of the Second Amendment

Quote:


There are two problems with the Second Amendment. First, under any circumstance, it is confusing; something that an English teacher would mark up in red ink and tell the author to redo and clarify. Secondly, there are actually two versions of the Amendment; The first passed by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress (the first step for ratifying a constitutional amendment). A different version passed by three-fourths of the states (the second step for ratifying a constitution amendment). The primary difference between the two versions are a capitalization and a simple comma.
DETAILS: Confusion -- the wording of the Second Amendment | Occasional Planet
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:41 PM
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Not confusing at all if you know how to read.
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  #214 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 11:59 PM
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It is confusing to intelligent people.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
It is confusing to intelligent people.
So you understand it perfectly?
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  #216 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Abatis View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
The 2nd Amendment is simply whatever SCOTUS says it is. SCOTUS has redefined it before and will redefine it again.
SCOTUS has never wavered in its determinations / explanations of the right to arms and the 2nd Amendment (two distinct, separate things).

SCOTUS has never held that the right has any dependency on the 2nd Amendment (or "interpretation" of it) because the Court has always held that the right pre-existed the Constitution thus is not granted, given, created or established by the Constitution . . . In the words of the Court:
  • "[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."
So the obvious question is, why do you persist in inventing conditions, qualifications, restrictions and constraints on the right from words that have absolutely no effect on the right? (besides the obvious reasons, profound ignorance (at best) or unabashed hostility for the Constitution (at worst))

Even more to the point, after nearly 140 years of holding that the right to arms does not "in any manner" depend on the words of the 2nd, what makes you think that the Court will do a 180° switcheroo?
Things change. Shit happens. People evolve...
Fake Indians don't evolve.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:34 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Abatis View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
The 2nd Amendment is simply whatever SCOTUS says it is. SCOTUS has redefined it before and will redefine it again.
SCOTUS has never wavered in its determinations / explanations of the right to arms and the 2nd Amendment (two distinct, separate things).

SCOTUS has never held that the right has any dependency on the 2nd Amendment (or "interpretation" of it) because the Court has always held that the right pre-existed the Constitution thus is not granted, given, created or established by the Constitution . . . In the words of the Court:
  • "[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."
So the obvious question is, why do you persist in inventing conditions, qualifications, restrictions and constraints on the right from words that have absolutely no effect on the right? (besides the obvious reasons, profound ignorance (at best) or unabashed hostility for the Constitution (at worst))

Even more to the point, after nearly 140 years of holding that the right to arms does not "in any manner" depend on the words of the 2nd, what makes you think that the Court will do a 180° switcheroo?
Things change. Shit happens. People evolve...
The devolve too.

Words penned in ink don't change though. They still mean what they have always meant.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:03 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Harry Dresden View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Rinata View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 View Post

The 2nd amendment allows us the right to bear arms. How is that a misinterpretation?
What it actually says is:

“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

This does not give individuals the right to bear arms. It is giving militias the right to bear arms. How is this at all relevant today??
sorry Rinata.....the PEOPLE are the Citizens of this Country.....this Country has "Zero Tolerance" for this and that.....maybe they should start having "Zero Tolerance" for Violence against people and start putting violent people away for a long time with no time off for good behavior......you serve every minute of your sentence.....
I agree.
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  #219 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2012, 02:31 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ernie S. View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Rinata View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 View Post

The 2nd amendment allows us the right to bear arms. How is that a misinterpretation?
What it actually says is:

“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

This does not give individuals the right to bear arms. It is giving militias the right to bear arms. How is this at all relevant today??
You are 100% wrong, The 2 phrases can be taken independently. The founders realized that militias aren't a permanent entity. They may be raised, disbanded and become necessary again at a later time.
When, in the future, a citizen militia may be needed again, it will need arms. A oppressive government isn't about to arm its opposition.
I just posted what the amendment says exactly. Everybody interprets it in their own way. Maybe the two phrases can be taken independently but we will never know if that was the intent.

In any case, militias do not need guns. I've never seen anything like it!!! The right wing bat crap crazies will say and do anything just to be contrary and fight about keeping their damn guns. Now you are throwing militias into the mix.

Read about the militia movement. I was not the least bit surprised to see who is behind it and why.

The Militia Movement -- Extremism in America

According to the ADL, the militia movement has embroiled themselves since 1994 in a variety of other bombing plots, conspiracies and serious violations of law. Their extreme anti-government ideology, along with their elaborate conspiracy theories and fascination with weaponry and paramilitary organization, lead many members of militia groups to act out in ways that justify the concerns expressed about them by public officials, law enforcement and the general public.

Just great.
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Last edited by Rinata; 12-28-2012 at 02:35 AM.
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  #220 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2012, 02:47 AM
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I train once a month so yes I am well regulated.
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Old 12-28-2012, 04:12 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Abatis View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
The 2nd Amendment is simply whatever SCOTUS says it is. SCOTUS has redefined it before and will redefine it again.
SCOTUS has never wavered in its determinations / explanations of the right to arms and the 2nd Amendment (two distinct, separate things).

SCOTUS has never held that the right has any dependency on the 2nd Amendment (or "interpretation" of it) because the Court has always held that the right pre-existed the Constitution thus is not granted, given, created or established by the Constitution . . . In the words of the Court:
  • "[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."
So the obvious question is, why do you persist in inventing conditions, qualifications, restrictions and constraints on the right from words that have absolutely no effect on the right? (besides the obvious reasons, profound ignorance (at best) or unabashed hostility for the Constitution (at worst))

Even more to the point, after nearly 140 years of holding that the right to arms does not "in any manner" depend on the words of the 2nd, what makes you think that the Court will do a 180° switcheroo?
Things change. Shit happens. People evolve...
And maybe you will start believing that stars are actually flaming chariots pulled across the sky by winged platypuses piloted by transgendered midgets . . .
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Last edited by Abatis; 12-28-2012 at 04:18 AM.
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  #222 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2012, 04:18 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Rinata View Post
I just posted what the amendment says exactly. Everybody interprets it in their own way. Maybe the two phrases can be taken independently but we will never know if that was the intent.
We know that they considered the right to arms to be among "the great residuum" retained by the people after we granted the limited powers to government. We know they believed the right was not created, granted or given by the Amendment thus the words of the Amendment can't be "interpreted" to modify, condition, qualify or restrain the right.

Madison said:
"[Bills of Rights] are unnecessary, because the powers are enumerated, and it follows that all that are not granted by the constitution are retained: that the constitution is a bill of powers, the great residuum being the rights of the people; and therefore a bill of rights cannot be so necessary as if the residuum was thrown into the hands of the government."
We the People don't have the right to arms because the 2nd Amendment is there( we would possess it without any Constitutional recognition); we have the right to arms because no power was ever granted to government to have any interest whatsoever in the personal arms of the private citizen.

All the Bill of Rights does is redundantly forbid the government to exercise powers never granted to it. Your militia based "interpretation" is the product of profound ignorance. You are arguing an absurdity completely divorced from the fundamental principles of the Constitution.
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Last edited by Abatis; 12-28-2012 at 04:19 AM.
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  #223 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Abatis View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
The 2nd Amendment is simply whatever SCOTUS says it is. SCOTUS has redefined it before and will redefine it again.
SCOTUS has never wavered in its determinations / explanations of the right to arms and the 2nd Amendment (two distinct, separate things).

SCOTUS has never held that the right has any dependency on the 2nd Amendment (or "interpretation" of it) because the Court has always held that the right pre-existed the Constitution thus is not granted, given, created or established by the Constitution . . . In the words of the Court:
  • "[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."
So the obvious question is, why do you persist in inventing conditions, qualifications, restrictions and constraints on the right from words that have absolutely no effect on the right? (besides the obvious reasons, profound ignorance (at best) or unabashed hostility for the Constitution (at worst))

Even more to the point, after nearly 140 years of holding that the right to arms does not "in any manner" depend on the words of the 2nd, what makes you think that the Court will do a 180° switcheroo?
Things change. Shit happens. People evolve...
people lie too about what they "supposedly" believe in.....
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  #224 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2012, 06:53 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Quantum Windbag View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Lakhota View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Abatis View Post

SCOTUS has never wavered in its determinations / explanations of the right to arms and the 2nd Amendment (two distinct, separate things).

SCOTUS has never held that the right has any dependency on the 2nd Amendment (or "interpretation" of it) because the Court has always held that the right pre-existed the Constitution thus is not granted, given, created or established by the Constitution . . . In the words of the Court:
  • "[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."
So the obvious question is, why do you persist in inventing conditions, qualifications, restrictions and constraints on the right from words that have absolutely no effect on the right? (besides the obvious reasons, profound ignorance (at best) or unabashed hostility for the Constitution (at worst))

Even more to the point, after nearly 140 years of holding that the right to arms does not "in any manner" depend on the words of the 2nd, what makes you think that the Court will do a 180° switcheroo?
Things change. Shit happens. People evolve...
Fake Indians don't evolve.
yep.....and they lie about their position on guns.....this one does anyway....
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  #225 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2012, 08:31 AM
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I'm going to call this thread for those who voted yea.

The 2nd Amendment is officially obsolete.

Someone tell Scalia.
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