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I want the truth. Links or some kind of proof please

This is a discussion on I want the truth. Links or some kind of proof please within the Politics forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow Quote: Originally Posted by thereisnospoon Unbelievable... Obama just released $880 billion to hire 16,000 NEW ...


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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:06 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by thereisnospoon View Post
Unbelievable...

Obama just released $880 billion to hire 16,000 NEW IRS employees to who's job it is to collect the tax.
That would be cool if it were true.

Link?
That lie has been circulating for at least a year.
Dunno about that. Just this past April, millions of dollars were transferred from HHS to the IRS. And, more monies appropriated to the IRS, according to The Hill. Obama administration diverts $500M to IRS to implement healthcare reform law - The Hill's Healthwatch
The law contains dozens of targeted appropriations to implement specific provisions. It also gave the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) a $1 billion implementation fund, to use as it sees fit. Republicans have called it a “slush fund.”

HHS plans to drain the entire fund by September — before the presidential election, and more than a year before most of the healthcare law takes effect. Roughly half of that money will ultimately go to the IRS.

HHS has transferred almost $200 million to the IRS over the past two years and plans to transfer more than $300 million this year, according to figures provided by a congressional aide.

The Government Accountability Office has said the transfers are perfectly legal and consistent with how agencies have used general implementation funds in the past. The $1 billion fund was set aside for “federal” implementation activities, the GAO said, and can therefore be used by any agency — not just HHS, where the money is housed.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:17 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post

That would be cool if it were true.

Link?
That lie has been circulating for at least a year.
Dunno about that. Just this past April, millions of dollars were transferred from HHS to the IRS. And, more monies appropriated to the IRS, according to The Hill. Obama administration diverts $500M to IRS to implement healthcare reform law - The Hill's Healthwatch
The law contains dozens of targeted appropriations to implement specific provisions. It also gave the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) a $1 billion implementation fund, to use as it sees fit. Republicans have called it a “slush fund.”

HHS plans to drain the entire fund by September — before the presidential election, and more than a year before most of the healthcare law takes effect. Roughly half of that money will ultimately go to the IRS.

HHS has transferred almost $200 million to the IRS over the past two years and plans to transfer more than $300 million this year, according to figures provided by a congressional aide.

The Government Accountability Office has said the transfers are perfectly legal and consistent with how agencies have used general implementation funds in the past. The $1 billion fund was set aside for “federal” implementation activities, the GAO said, and can therefore be used by any agency — not just HHS, where the money is housed.
You might want to reconcile the difference between 880 billion and 1 billion, for starters.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by NYcarbineer View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
That lie has been circulating for at least a year.
Dunno about that. Just this past April, millions of dollars were transferred from HHS to the IRS. And, more monies appropriated to the IRS, according to The Hill. Obama administration diverts $500M to IRS to implement healthcare reform law - The Hill's Healthwatch
The law contains dozens of targeted appropriations to implement specific provisions. It also gave the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) a $1 billion implementation fund, to use as it sees fit. Republicans have called it a “slush fund.”

HHS plans to drain the entire fund by September — before the presidential election, and more than a year before most of the healthcare law takes effect. Roughly half of that money will ultimately go to the IRS.

HHS has transferred almost $200 million to the IRS over the past two years and plans to transfer more than $300 million this year, according to figures provided by a congressional aide.

The Government Accountability Office has said the transfers are perfectly legal and consistent with how agencies have used general implementation funds in the past. The $1 billion fund was set aside for “federal” implementation activities, the GAO said, and can therefore be used by any agency — not just HHS, where the money is housed.
You might want to reconcile the difference between 880 billion and 1 billion, for starters.
Well, one billion is just the slush fund.

There is also Obama's budget proposal to increase appropriations to the IRS 9.4% to 13.28 billion for FY 2012 and an estimated increase in employees by 5,100. That's just this year.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Zxereus View Post
If it's collected by the IRS, it's a tax. The claim is there will not be enforcement if a person chooses not to pay it. However, this would invite an audit. Anyone want to go there ?
No..it wouldn't. The law as written forbids that.
Nothing in the law prohibits the IRS from doing anything that they would normally do to collect taxes. That includes taking your property, paycheck and even putting you in prison. Unless you can point to a provision that protects you, your claim is bunk.
Quote: Originally Posted by NYcarbineer View Post
The mandate tax is a tax that 99% of Americans will never have to pay.
Not likely. At this point, it is far more likely that many people are simply going to drop the thousand dollar HC plans and pay the pithily little fine. I can get HC AFTER I am sick. Why pay all that money before. Yet another glaring hole in the Obama plan.
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by FA_Q2 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Zxereus View Post
If it's collected by the IRS, it's a tax. The claim is there will not be enforcement if a person chooses not to pay it. However, this would invite an audit. Anyone want to go there ?
No..it wouldn't. The law as written forbids that.
Nothing in the law prohibits the IRS from doing anything that they would normally do to collect taxes. That includes taking your property, paycheck and even putting you in prison. Unless you can point to a provision that protects you, your claim is bunk.
Quote: Originally Posted by NYcarbineer View Post
The mandate tax is a tax that 99% of Americans will never have to pay.
Not likely. At this point, it is far more likely that many people are simply going to drop the thousand dollar HC plans and pay the pithily little fine. I can get HC AFTER I am sick. Why pay all that money before. Yet another glaring hole in the Obama plan.
To the bolded: Yup. Smart personal budget move.

But, we, as a country, can afford this. (Damn, I couldn't even type that without keeping a straight face.)
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sarah G View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Just in March 2012, 10% of federal white collar convictions were IRS related. White Collar Crime Convictions for March 2012

They will hound someone for $50 a month which would be the largest amount one will have to pay and that is in 2017 but you won't find yourself in a levy situation. In 2014, you would pay $8 a month each month you are uninsured.

White collar convictions can be in the millions of dollars. This is chump change.
Links, please.
I already provided links in this thread.
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:50 AM
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Thanks for the responses everyone. After reading the entire thread and checking a few links I've come to the same conclusion as NYCarb and SiModo.

The whole point of the healthcare reforms that we needed was to lower costs and broaden coverage. It appears we have achieved one at the expense of the other. It also appears to me that initially the (mandate, tax, penalty) will disproportionally hit low income families and individuals. With many in the middle class following shortly once they realize the financial savings they can achieve by cheating the system. It also seems clear that small businesses that have just over 50 employees will most likely let people go in order to get under the threshold. Those with just under 50 employees will most likely freeze hiring.
Then you have the astronomical costs of this law to consider. If your goal is to drive our country to a single payer system then this bill is good I suppose. Myself, I like the system we had despite its flaws. Those flaws need to be addressed but this bill did nothing to address them.

The above post is how the GOP should be attacking this monstrosity. Running around screaming about a tax that initially will only hit a few is in my mind a REALLY STUPID FUCKING TACTIC.

This bill is a disaster and repeal & replace is the only recourse. In a new poll just released this morning 50+% (i forget the exact amount) favor repeal while 30+% don't.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 10:21 AM
common sense..what's THAT
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by thereisnospoon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post

You can probably count the number of people tossed into jail on charges of tax evasion on one hand.

And most of them..would be illegal immigrants.

The IRS does very little in terms of audits..and/or enforcement.
Unbelievable...

Obama just released $880 billion to hire 16,000 NEW IRS employees to who's job it is to collect the tax.
That would be cool if it were true.

Link?
‘Obamacare’ cops: $1 billion to force new tax compliance
In the link, you'll have to scroll down to find the following update....
"Update, Feb. 22: The Treasury Department on Feb. 14 released the IRS budget request for fiscal year 2012 that shows the agency is seeking 1,269 full-time equivalent employees (FTEs) at a cost of $473 million to help implement the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. That includes 291 IRS agents, most of them (193) to "ensure accurate delivery of tax credits." For more information, read our Ask FactCheck, "IRS and the Health Care Law, Part II."
Also...And here's where it gets rather thick....
CBO Director Elmendorf, March 11: CBO has not completed an estimate of all of the discretionary costs that would be associated with H.R. 3590. … [S]uch costs would probably include an estimated $5 billion to $10 billion over 10 years for administrative costs of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).

HAS NOT COMPLETED..."But ESTIMATES are between five and ten billion dollars annually..."
BTW, this cost is above and beyond the estimated $900 billion cost of Obamacare.
Already the federal government is digging deeper into our pockets.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 10:24 AM
common sense..what's THAT
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by thereisnospoon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post

No..it wouldn't. The law as written forbids that.
from factcheck..
"The law says that the IRS will collect the tax “in the same manner as an assessable penalty under subchapter B of chapter 68” of the tax code. That part of the tax code provides for imposing an additional penalty “equal to the total amount of the tax evaded, or not collected. It also requires written notices to the taxpayer, and provides for court proceedings."
Again..

Most people don't go to jail for tax evasion..they generally figure out a payment plan.

You guys are ridiculous.
You can ignore the facts all you like. Deny until you drop dead. The law is the law.
And THIS is IN THE LAW...
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:26 AM
common sense..what's THAT
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Quote: Originally Posted by FA_Q2 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sallow View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Zxereus View Post
If it's collected by the IRS, it's a tax. The claim is there will not be enforcement if a person chooses not to pay it. However, this would invite an audit. Anyone want to go there ?
No..it wouldn't. The law as written forbids that.
Nothing in the law prohibits the IRS from doing anything that they would normally do to collect taxes. That includes taking your property, paycheck and even putting you in prison. Unless you can point to a provision that protects you, your claim is bunk.
Quote: Originally Posted by NYcarbineer View Post
The mandate tax is a tax that 99% of Americans will never have to pay.
Not likely. At this point, it is far more likely that many people are simply going to drop the thousand dollar HC plans and pay the pithily little fine. I can get HC AFTER I am sick. Why pay all that money before. Yet another glaring hole in the Obama plan.
Yep..It looks like we can dump our insurance and according to sallow, ignore the fine because the IRS rarely throws people in prison for tax evasion. When we get sick, we simply buy a policy, get treated then cancel the thing.
Yeah, ok, that'll work.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:27 AM
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:28 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sarah G View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Sarah G View Post

They will hound someone for $50 a month which would be the largest amount one will have to pay and that is in 2017 but you won't find yourself in a levy situation. In 2014, you would pay $8 a month each month you are uninsured.

White collar convictions can be in the millions of dollars. This is chump change.
Links, please.
I already provided links in this thread.
Where did you provide links that say the IRS will not penalize a taxpayer - that this is so small they they won't do a thing?

And, if they don't, then the fucking congresscritters killed a lot of trees for nothing.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:29 AM
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Here Are The New Taxes You
Quote:
Well, Obamacare is now official, which means that a lot more people in the United States will have health insurance.

And it also means a lot more people will be paying more taxes.

(You didn't think Obamacare was free, did you?)

Here are some of the new taxes you're going to have to pay to pay for Obamacare:

A 3.8% surtax on "investment income" when your adjusted gross income is more than $200,000 ($250,000 for joint-filers). What is "investment income?" Dividends, interest, rent, capital gains, annuities, house sales, partnerships, etc. Taxes on dividends will rise from 15% to 18.8%--if Congress extends the Bush tax cuts. If Congress does not extend the Bush tax cuts, taxes on dividends will rise from 15% to a shocking 43.8%. (WSJ)
A 0.9% surtax on Medicare taxes for those making $200,000 or more ($250,000 joint). You already pay Medicare tax of 1.45%, and your employer pays another 1.45% for you (unless you're self-employed, in which case you pay the whole 2.9% yourself). Next year, your Medicare bill will be 2.35%. (WSJ)
Flexible Spending Account contributions will be capped at $2,500. Currently, there is no tax-related limit on how much you can set aside pre-tax to pay for medical expenses. Next year, there will be. If you have been socking away, say, $10,000 in your FSA to pay medical bills, you'll have to cut that to $2,500. (ATR.org)
The itemized-deduction hurdle for medical expenses is going up to $10,000. Right now, any medical expenses over $7,500 per year are deductible. Next year, that hurdle will be $10,000. (ATR.org)
The penalty on non-medical withdrawals from Healthcare Savings Accounts is now 20% instead of 10%. That's twice the penalty that applies to annuities, IRAs, and other tax-free vehicles. (ATR.org)
A tax of 10% on indoor tanning services. This has been in place for two years, since the summer of 2010. (ATR.org)
A 40% tax on "Cadillac Health Care Plans" starting in 2018.Those whose employers pay for all or most of comprehensive healthcare plans (costing $10,200 for an individual or $27,500 for families) will have to pay a 40% tax on the amount their employer pays. The 2018 start date is said to have been a gift to unions, which often have comprehensive plans. (ATR.org)
A"Medicine Cabinet Tax" that eliminates the ability to pay for over-the-counter medicines from a pre-tax Flexible Spending Account. This started in January 2011. (ATR.org)
A "penalty" tax for those who don't buy health insurance. This will phase in from 2014-2016. It will range from $695 per person to about $4,700 per person, depending on your income. (More details here.)
A tax on medical devices costing more than $100. Starting in 2013, medical device manufacturers will have to pay a 2.3% excise tax on medical equipment. This is expected to raise the cost of medical procedures. (Breitbart.com)

So those are some of the new taxes you'll be paying that will help pay for Obamacare.

Any big ones I've missed?

Note that these taxes are both "progressive" (aimed at rich people) and "regressive" (aimed at the middle class and poor people). The big ones--the 3.8% investment income hike and the Medicare tax increase--only hit you if you're making more than $200,000 a year. The rest hit you no matter how much you're making.

Here's How Much The Obamacare Penalty Tax Will Cost You

Many Americans are furious that Obamacare will require them to buy health insurance.

Most of these folks seem to hate the idea that Obama is forcing them to do something more than they hate the idea of shelling out money.

But for those who also care about the money, here are the details.

The good news is that, for most people, the "penalty tax" for those who choose not to buy health insurance will cost a lot less than health insurance.

As with everything tax-related, there's no simple answer to "How much is the Obamacare penalty tax?" But here are some key points, from FactCheck.org:

The penalty/tax will be phased in from 2014 to 2016.
The minimum penalty/tax in 2016 will be $695 per person and up to 3-times that per family. After 2016, these amounts will increase at the rate of inflation.
The minimum penalty/tax per person will start at $95 in 2014 (and then increase through 2016)
No family will ever pay more than 3X the per-person penalty, regardless of how many people are in the family.
The $695 per-person penalty is only for those who make between $9,500 and ~$37,000 per year. If you make less than ~$9.500, you're exempt. If you make more than ~$37,000, your penalty is calculated by the following formula...
The penalty is 2.5% of any household income above the level at which you are required to file a tax return. That level is currently $9,500 per person and $19,000 per couple. The penalty on any income above that is 2.5%. So the penalty can get expensive quickly if you make a lot of money.
However, the penalty can never be more than the cost of a "Bronze" heath insurance plan purchased through one of the state "exchanges" that will be created as part of Obamacare. The CBO estimates that these policies will cost $4,500-$5,000 per person and $12,000-$12,500 per family in 2016, with the costs rising thereafter.

So, basically, you're looking at penalties of approximately the following at the following income levels:

Less than $9,500 income = $0
$9,500 - $37,000 income = $695
$50,000 income = $1,000
$75,000 income = $1,600
$100,000 income = $2,250
$125,000 income = $2,900
$150,000 income = $3,500
$175,000 income = $4,100
$200,000 income = $4,700
Over $200,000 = The cost of a "bronze" health-insurance plan

The IRS will collect the penalty-tax, a fact that will no doubt further enrage those who hate Obamacare.

But here's some more good news for those folks:

The IRS will not have the power to charge you criminally or seize your assets if you refuse to pay. The IRS will only have the ability to sue you. And the most the IRS can collect from you if it wins the suit is 2X the amount you owe. So if you want to thumb your nose at the penalty-tax, the IRS won't be able to do as much to you as they could if you refused to pay, say, income tax.

By the way, the following folks will be exempt from the penalty-tax:

Those who make less than $9,500
Employees whose employers only offer plans that cost more than 8% of the employee's income
Those with "hardships"
Members of Indian tribes
Members of certain religions that don't pay Social Security tax, such as Amish, Hutterites or Mennonites
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