How did this country sink so low that they would not agree to more humane warfare? We did in the past, what changed?

Cluster Munitions by Senator Gravel

"111 nations signed on to a draft treaty this last month in Dublin, Ireland to outlaw the use of cluster munitions by their military forces. The United States boycotted this conference to produce a humane treaty. Cluster munitions contain dozens to hundreds of bomblets designed to explode above ground, inflicting maiming and lethal wounds. All battlefield weapons are cruel, but clusters rank up there with land mines––not only for their impact in battle, but more importantly because of their extensive residual damage long after the battlefield is quiet and overgrown.

Like land mines, the crippling and lethal legacy of cluster munitions is primarily on civilians––one in four victims are, children. The most recent example of their use was by the U.S. and Britain in the invasion of Iraq and Israel’s invasion of southern Lebanon against Hezbollah. The munitions used by Israel were older models purchased from American stocks that were prone to failure, with greater residual threats to civilian populations.

We should not lose sight of the irony that the U.S. is one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council––the world’s major munitions producers (plus Israel)––the majority of which opposed the Dublin draft treaty."

Cluster Munitions | Senator Mike Gravel

Ya lets just disarm and hope singing a ballad will protect us when our enemies come calling.

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The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

"Humane warfare"?

What do you expect us to use??? Harsh Language?

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Socialism will only work with a society of prisoners, slaves, and robots who can be controlled by the ruling elite (which will always exist in that type of system).

Join the ban bobo brigade! Join the ban kirk company. Just say no to trolls.

And for the idiotic statement of the month...

If we stopped using cluster munitions He would just find something else to cry about.

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Charles_Main

"Whenever a man has cast a longing eye on offices, a rottenness begins in his conduct."
Thomas Jefferson

"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."
Thomas Jefferson

They work like a fucking charm. When you get your ass out there in the line of fire, THEN you can bitch about what's used to take out the enemy. Otherwise, shut your piehole.

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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

Jesus, Midcan, do you not understand that women and children are expendable? It's a war, for chrissakes. Who cares if innocent civilians die? You're lucky we're still not commiting systematic rapes, which you'll wish we had once the 'enemy' comes to your door.

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"I will continue to be an impossible man as long as those men who are possible today remain possible." - Bakunin, letter to Ogarev.

"The ultimate aim of production is not production of goods, but the production of free human beings associated with one another on terms of equality." - John Dewey.

That's not even remotely close to what the OP said ...

Maybe my sarcasm detector is a bit fuzzy tonight but are you really spitting the line that in order to opine on such matters one has to have served?

In this case yes. Those munitions work, that is why they are being attacked, just like Napalm was attacked. Just like land mines are attacked.

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The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

Let's not kid ourselves.

Modern airborn warfare techniques made civilians military targets before most of us were born.

Civilians create the wealth and the military material which support the military.

Hence, mankind now often targets the source of the wealth that supports their enemies....civilians.

As to the specific horrors we rain down upon armies and the civilians who love them, alike?

Well, none of them aren't crimes against humanity.

Antipersonnel cluster bombs are part of that deadly arsenal of man's inhumanity to man.

I'm saying I'm sick of some armchair quarterbacks without a clue sitting back here in the AC and comfort of their La-Z-Boy presuming to pass moral judgement on something they obviously have no understanding about, not to mention lacking even a modicum of reality to their lameass arguments.

He may "opine" all he wishes. In in turn will free to "opine" on his cluelessness.

War is ugly. It's brutal. It reduces man to his basest form. Fighting to lose is pointless. Setting an arbitrary moral standard that Christ himself would envy for only our military to adhere to is stupid, and provides the enemy weaknesses to exploit.

The savage, brutal tactics of the enemy are hardly even mentioned while some leftwingnut slams our military in some sorry-ass attempt to slam the administration because partisan politics trump all in tiny little pea-sized minds.

If my choice is assault a defended line with my Marines or call for CAS dropping Napalm or cluster munitions on the enemy and they're pos is close to civilians -- or they are hiding among them, a favorite tactic of Islamic fundamentalists -- tough shit. I'm calling in the air and lighting them up.

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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

I feel pretty much the same way when the current administration attempts to forge America's foreign policy, but your point is still valid as it regards this issue.

Amen.

With some folks, it's alll about the "moral high ground." what they don't realize (or refuse to admit) is that when it gets down to brass tacks, morality doesn't mean squat in a knock down, drag out, snot slinging, rolling in the mud war. War is about chaos, destruction, and killing. It is not pleasant, glorious or any of those other high minded adjectives one may choose to apply. It is downright nasty business and if one wants to survive, one had better be prepared to do many things that would otherwise be considered horrendous in civilized society.

Ironically, the same folks who whine about our soldiers not having enough protection, modern equipment or other material support are the same ones who want our soldiers to adhere to moral standards that are more applicable to the Moromon Tabernacle Choir than they are to soldiers fighting to stay alive. Because of that advocacy, they think banning effective weapons will somehow raise the morality of war to that of a sporting event. I am surprised that we haven't heard someone campaigning for our troops to use muskets instead of modern weapons just to give our adversaries a "fair" chance.

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"Why, it appears that we appointed all of our worst generals to command the armies and we appointed all of our best generals to edit the newspapers. I mean, I found by reading a newspaper that these editor generals saw all of the defects plainly from the start but didn't tell me until it was too late. I'm willing to yield my place to these best generals and I'll do my best for the cause by editing a newspaper." -- Gen. Robert E. Lee

War is murder.

Imagining that we can make it a gentleman's sport with proper rules of conduct is a conceit.

Would that it were so, but it just ain't like that.