The chain of command screwed this royally, I hope the investigation results in some kind of action against the doctor and at least several of his supposed leaders.

The Marine Corps and I am sure the Army have been shit hot about suicide. These people made major mistakes. The Doctor is an idiot at best.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/...dier_s_suicide

__________________
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

Very touching story. I feel for the family's loss. The picture says it all.

From what I can tell reading the article, the CoC acted based on a recommendation by a psychologist. If anyone screwed up, I'd say it started with his misdiagnosis.

__________________
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

Godspeed PFC Jason Scheuerman.

__________________

POLITICAL ACTIVISTS CREED
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in people's minds"
-Samuel Adams

The doctor is the top of the list for discipline BUT the soldiers actions, behavior and obvious depression were easily seen and identified, his direct supervisors, Platon Sgt, Squad leader and Platoon Commander as well as that idiot First Sgt are all a complete failure.

The Company Commander would have little knowledge on the condition of the soldier. And while the First Sgt might not either, his ignorant comments are way beyons the pale in a potential situation he DID know about.

So from top to bottom of whom I would investigate for action against...

The Doctor
The First Sgt
The Squad Leader
The Platoon Sgt
The Platoon Leader

I would reserve the harshest potential punishment for the Doctor and the First Sgt. I would also investigate what training the platoon leadership had on suicide prevention and based on that act against them.

Nothing criminal though, though the Doctor is pushing it.

__________________
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

Fucking Unsat.

The CO at both Company and Battalion level need to be relieved.

The First Sergeant and Sergeant Major need to be relieved. Additionally the First Sergeant needs to spend a few minutes alone in a locked room with the dad.

The entire COC is culpable. No leader is perfect, but we ensure that every troop is seen and known by more than one. His fireteam leader, squad leader, Plt Sgt, Plt Commander should have seen and known him from daily interaction. His leadership should have been briefing the Company Leadership and those briefings go up the Chain of Command.

What these people did was to assume he was a shitbird and ignore the PME that has been ongoing since the mid 1990's on suicide awareness.

I can't speak for or against the Doc since I don't have the training. But I damn sure have enough leadership experience to know that some-fucking-body should have run up the bullshit flag and gotten a second opinion.

I hope the IG frags these fuckers but good.

__________________
As a Public Service I placed an interactive election map on my blog. It'll be up for a week at least.

I'm Phil -- 40ish male, self sufficient, great with my kids, wed 25 years, and believe that ones actions have logical consequences. How much more out the box can you get nowadays? -- MSgt of Marines (ret)

Independent Glossary:
Poor - someone who has little;
Rich - someone who has lots;
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Yup I was getting out in 95, BUT at least 5 years before that the Marine Corps was hot and heavy into suicide prevention training. No way the Army was not also.

That First Sgt is an idiot. The Platoon Sgt sounds like he was untrained and we have no comments from his squad leader. If the troops saw it there is no way the platoon leaders did not. Classic case of depression, and depression in those conditions with access to a loaded firearm is moronic. Basic leadership training.

He wasn't shaving, he wasn't bathing, he wasn't changing cloths, he was not acting as he had previously, he voiced doubts, he put his damn gun to his head and mouth in front of others. HE ask to see a health care provider. He sent a suicide good bye to his MOTHER.

These people screwed up beyond belief. And they know it or they would not have been so short on the information to his family.

Having been a leader of troops, there is a HUGE difference between a shit bird and the actions so easily observed by this private. His Command failed and in a major way.

__________________
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

That is exactly my reaction and why I went straight into rant mode.

__________________
As a Public Service I placed an interactive election map on my blog. It'll be up for a week at least.

I'm Phil -- 40ish male, self sufficient, great with my kids, wed 25 years, and believe that ones actions have logical consequences. How much more out the box can you get nowadays? -- MSgt of Marines (ret)

Independent Glossary:
Poor - someone who has little;
Rich - someone who has lots;
Middle Class - Someone who has the problems of each w/o any of the advantages.

Middle of the road - Someone who gets hit by traffic in both directions.

Straight party ticket = Voting for dummies

Interesting that you would add the codicil "IF" to the discussion--- But not unexpected. At least your Gunny buddy admits to the posibility that Someone screwed up.

__________________
BUSH-BASHER entoto and proud to be.

RetiredGySgt,
I agree completely. The system failed the boy. Suicide is nothing to fool around with. Whenever a young person starts playing with the idea and mimicking suicidal behavior, action must be taken immediately. The one that is really tough is the young person who gives no signals--my son was like that--but in this case there is no excuse.

it is a epidemic LETS NOT PRETEND it is a isolated incident and someone just fumbled the ball



Suicide Epidemic Among Veterans, A CBS News Investigation Uncovers ..."He was gone,” said Mia Sagahon, whose soldier boyfriend committed suicide. Keteyian spoke with the families of five former soldiers who each served in Iraq ...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n3496471.shtml


Growing suicide toll among troops - TelegraphThe number of troops who have committed suicide after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan is ... 14 November 2007: Troops get rough deal, says Chief of Defence ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ntroops115.xml

__________________
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861

Remember, remember, the 11th of september The Gunpowder Treason and plot;
I see of no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.....

Maybe I missed it, but didn't his CoC send him to the psychologist? The psychologist then comes back with a statement to the effect that the soldier could be faking it.

Now we've all been there. Is the guy faking because he's a slacker? Or is it real? The doc's prognosis is going to weigh heavily.

Had a young LCpl who never had deployed. Went on 30 days RIMPAC and came back claiming to be gay. We KNEW he wasn't, but he convinced the powers that were that he was and got out.

I know being gay is not comparable to being suicidal. My point is merely to illustrate what lengths some will go to just to get out.

I'm really not taking either side of the argument either because I wasn't there. I'm just tossing the viewpoint of having been the SNCOIC into the mix.

__________________
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

I definitely agree with getting the second opinion.

__________________
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

Must you continue to prove you are moron everywhere you see my name? Dude, I'm married, and to a woman so you'll have to find someone else to be infatuated with.

And DO run your one brain cell back through the thread numbnuts and find where I said someone screwing up was not a possibility, then trot on back here and quote it.

Oh yeah, you STILL can't handle the quote function after HOW MANY YEARS?

__________________
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” - Edmund Burke

Nobody said it was isolated. We are discussing one case where the reported facts point to a leadership and medical failure.

That was the point of my rant. I have held many troop leader positions from fireteam leader to company first shirt on a permanent basis. Hell I was even the bn sgtmaj for a couple of months till the new guy got in the door.

My view is that you leave little to nothing to chance. When incountry you have to be able to trust the kid with a weapon. If he could be pulled off the line to see a witch doctor, then he could have been pulled for a second opinion. My biggest beef is that apparently the chain of command felt he was a bird and took the first diagnosis since it "confirmed" thier feeling.

And yeah, I once did the same thing except the kid was claiming back pain and I thought he just wanted to get out of the hump into the field. Turned out (after I made him hike) that he had a ruptured disk.

__________________
As a Public Service I placed an interactive election map on my blog. It'll be up for a week at least.

I'm Phil -- 40ish male, self sufficient, great with my kids, wed 25 years, and believe that ones actions have logical consequences. How much more out the box can you get nowadays? -- MSgt of Marines (ret)

Independent Glossary:
Poor - someone who has little;
Rich - someone who has lots;
Middle Class - Someone who has the problems of each w/o any of the advantages.

Middle of the road - Someone who gets hit by traffic in both directions.

Straight party ticket = Voting for dummies