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Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study

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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote:

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.
Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.
it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Cassy Treat built his Mega Church on Business zoned property. There was nothing the City of Federal Way could do to stop him. So how is it that this man can't have his church? Is it the amount of money involved? Just curious. We lost all those tax dollars, seems to me the tax dollars for a residence would be insignificant in comparison.

If it was a church, then he wasn't following the laws connected with church buildings - such as having fire exits and wheelchair ramps.

Sounds like he was denying it was a church -- which might have flown in 2007 when they first started harassing him for having people over to his livingroom. But it didn't fly after 2008 after he submitted paperwork calling the group a church.

IIUC.
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by jillian View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote:

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.
Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.
it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.
You may be right. But it is not an invalid point to ask if this was a bridge club or quilting group or after school tutoring session, would the same objections have been imposed?
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by jillian View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
Quote:

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.
Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.
it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.
One question, was it ever used as a gaming room? If so, then he wasn't lying. I know someone that built a rec room onto the back of their home with an added bath and small kitchen. It was actually a mother in law apartment, but because those are illegal, they had to build a rec room. The use it as a rec room most of the time, but there are times when someone comes to stay with them that it becomes an apartment.

My cousin wanted to build an apartment in their garage, which they built before building their house. Well, they weren't allowed to build an apartment in a garage, so they built a barn with an apartment in it. A barn with a cement floor and a garage door. She kept the hay in there though.

Truth is, a lot of people work around the system and I'm guessing that if this was a quilting circle, no one would be objecting.

Ever see Green Acres? There was an episode where he wanted to build a shed attached to his barn but they wouldn't give him a permit because no permit had ever been given for the barn. His wife finally solved the problem by getting a permit first for the barn and then for the shed he wanted to build attached to it.

And the inspectors are a joke. We had a new furnace put in and when we did, we added venting to the upstairs, the inspector showed up and checked off on it, when I asked if he was going to check the venting, he said "what venting", it wasn't on his list and if I wanted him to check it, it would cost me $1,000. Needless to say it was never checked. The permit process for it was on the company that put it in, me having mentioned it, the inspector knew it was there, but did nothing, he just wanted a bribe and this in the good old USA.

Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.
All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by jillian View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.
All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.
The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by jillian View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.
All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.
The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?
With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study



Other links with different perspectives are welcome.
Seems like an overreach to me. Cities certainly have a right to zone but if the pastor is indeed truthful when he says these meetings are not opened to the public, I think the city is overreaching.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by jillian View Post

All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.
The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?
With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use. Michael Salmon argued his case pointing out that their gatherings are not opened to the public. Just like in the Bible, gatherings were among believers who knew one another. It was part of body life. With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional. They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.


Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post

The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?
With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use.
And hosting a public or large other gathering would fit in that as well. There are such things as zoning laws. That it took 2 years for the city to notice is not surprising.

Quote:
Michael Salmon argued his case pointing out that their gatherings are not opened to the public.
That's in dispute.
Quote:
Just like in the Bible, gatherings were among believers who knew one another. It was part of body life.
Irrelevant
Quote:
With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional.
No, freedom of religion does not mean exempt from zoning laws.
And it's in dispute that it was only 15-20, though that's still a large number for a gathering of friends 2-3 times a week...with a sign for the church.

Quote:
They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.
He had no trouble calling it a church for tax purposes, though, did he?


[qutoe]Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?[/QUOTE]
I'd have to read the zoning laws....ok, I checked. Sign use is allowed for churches, so his would be allowed if he followed the rules for calling it a church, though a quilting bee sign would NOT be allowed. Otherwise it would also fall under public assembly.

Your turn....any evidence that any similar, but secular, activities/buildings etc are allowed????

It's ridiculous that you keep claiming that 2-3 times a week, there are worship services in a specific building, with a sign out front, and it's not really a church. Please.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by pinqy View Post

With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use.
And hosting a public or large other gathering would fit in that as well. There are such things as zoning laws. That it took 2 years for the city to notice is not surprising.

That's in dispute.
Irrelevant
Quote:
With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional.
No, freedom of religion does not mean exempt from zoning laws.
And it's in dispute that it was only 15-20, though that's still a large number for a gathering of friends 2-3 times a week...with a sign for the church.

Quote:
They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.
He had no trouble calling it a church for tax purposes, though, did he?


[qutoe]Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?
I'd have to read the zoning laws....ok, I checked. Sign use is allowed for churches, so his would be allowed if he followed the rules for calling it a church, though a quilting bee sign would NOT be allowed. Otherwise it would also fall under public assembly.

Your turn....any evidence that any similar, but secular, activities/buildings etc are allowed????

It's ridiculous that you keep claiming that 2-3 times a week, there are worship services in a specific building, with a sign out front, and it's not really a church. Please.[/QUOTE]

I'm not claiming anything, I'm asking questions. I'm also pointing out that the notice he received ONLY mentions Bible study and churches, it doesn't mention anything else. So the "yes" to my question would this happen if he was holding a quilting bee is not sustainable based on the evidence.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by pinqy View Post

With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use.
And hosting a public or large other gathering would fit in that as well. There are such things as zoning laws. That it took 2 years for the city to notice is not surprising.

That's in dispute.
Irrelevant
Quote:
With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional.
No, freedom of religion does not mean exempt from zoning laws.
And it's in dispute that it was only 15-20, though that's still a large number for a gathering of friends 2-3 times a week...with a sign for the church.

Quote:
They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.
He had no trouble calling it a church for tax purposes, though, did he?


[qutoe]Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?
I'd have to read the zoning laws....ok, I checked. Sign use is allowed for churches, so his would be allowed if he followed the rules for calling it a church, though a quilting bee sign would NOT be allowed. Otherwise it would also fall under public assembly.

Your turn....any evidence that any similar, but secular, activities/buildings etc are allowed????

It's ridiculous that you keep claiming that 2-3 times a week, there are worship services in a specific building, with a sign out front, and it's not really a church. Please.[/QUOTE]



It appears that the hassling started before they declared themselves a church. Before there was a sign. Back when they were just a group of people sharing fellowship in a private home.

Did they declare themselves a church because they said they might as well since the city was going to give them a hard time about it?

Thank you for the extra info about their 2008 activities, but without more info about their activities when the city actually started making demands on them your criticism seems off the mark. You appear to be judging them based on what they did after the city told them that they were going to be treated as a church no matter what they called themselves. The city appears to have gotten that ball rolling in 2007. And it still APPEARS likely or at least possible that it was based on the Bible study activity, and that a nonreligious activity would have gotten a pass.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:30 PM
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It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:32 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study
“Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say ‘amen’?” the official reportedly asked. “Do you say, ‘Praise the Lord’?”

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:39 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study
“Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say ‘amen’?” the official reportedly asked. “Do you say, ‘Praise the Lord’?”

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.
Where do you see bigotry in those questions? They were clearly meant to establsh the building's use as a church.
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