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B’Tselem report delivers blow to narrative that November attack on Gaza was ‘surgical

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Old 05-13-2013, 01:47 PM
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B’Tselem report delivers blow to narrative that November attack on Gaza was ‘surgical

B’Tselem report delivers blow to narrative that November attack on Gaza was ‘surgical’


Quote:
Precise” and “surgical”: those were the buzz words mouthed by the Israeli army and its supporters to describe the November air assault on Gaza. But a new report by the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem calls that narrative into question. The report reveals that over half of Palestinian casualties during Operation Pillar of Defense, the army name for the assault, were civilians. In the midst of Israel’s attack on Gaza last November--which began with the assassination of a Hamas leader while truce negotiations were ongoing--the army claimed it was ensuring limited harm to civilians. “The IDF goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties and to minimize collateral damage,” the Israeli army’s official blog claimed. A November 14 explanation of the military’s activities on that day says that the “IDF has precisely hit 80 more targets.” The Ministry of Foreign Affairs claimed that “the targets of Israeli operations are all military. Israeli strikes are conducted in a precise surgical manner.”

That narrative was also pushed by supporters of Israel outside of official state channels. Writing for Foreign Policy magazine, the Washington Institute for Near East Policy’s Jeffrey White said: “Based on the relatively low number of Palestinian casualties -- roughly 110 killed, including both civilians and fighters -- in the first six days, the strikes seem to have been relatively precise.” The Institute for National Security Studies, a leading Israeli think tank with ties to the government, also propagated this narrative. In an analysis of Operation Pillar of Defense, former Israeli general Amos Yadlin wrote that the attack was characterized by “a limited surgical aerial attack.”

But as B’Tselem states, their report “challenges the common perception in the Israeli public and media that the operation was ‘surgical’ and caused practically no fatalities among uninvolved Palestinian civilians.” The numbers say it all: according to the B’Tselem report, “167 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli military during Operation Pillar of Defense, including at least 87 who did not take part in the hostilities, 31 of whom were minors.” (United Nations figures are slightly higher: a Human Rights Council report documents that 168 Palestinians were killed by Israel, 101 of whom are civilians.) B’Tselem also states that “over the course of the final four days of the operation, the number of Palestinians killed who did not take part in the hostilities was 4 times greater than their number during the first four days.”




B'Tselem report delivers blow to narrative that November attack on Gaza was 'surgical'

Here is the discussion of Btselem about one unlawful attack.

Quote:
On Sunday evening, 18 November 2012, the whole family was home. Now and then we heard explosions and airplanes flying overhead, above the refugee camp. Just before 10:00 o’clock, we heard a powerful explosion that shook our house. My husband, Jalal, went up to the roof to see where the bomb had hit.

About ten minutes later, my son Hussein, who is six years old, went up to the roof to get his father. He was afraid that something would happen to him. A few minutes later, I heard a powerful explosion from the direction of the roof. The house filled with dust and smoke. I went outside. I was hysterical. I was crying and screaming. I asked Jalal’s brothers to come over and they came to the house. I told them that Jalal and Hussein had been on the roof. We went up to the roof and called Jalal but he didn’t answer. Then I saw Jalal and Hussein. They were covered in blood. I began screaming hysterically. Jalal’s brothers took me out of the house and brought me to one of their houses. A few minutes later, they told me that Hussein had been killed and that Jalal was seriously wounded and on his way to the hospital. A few hours later, at around two o’clock in the morning, I was told that Jalal had died too. I was in shock and couldn’t stop crying.



http://www.btselem.org/download/2013...ration_eng.pdf


Btselem issues its report on Operation Pillar Of Defense, finding Israel killed 167 Palestinians and over half of those killed were civilians. And Btselem addresses violations of international law carried out by Israel in these killings of civilians that relate to unlawful targetings of civilians under the provisions of the fourth geneva convention.

Sherri
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:48 PM
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:12 PM
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Btselem conducted investigations of all instances in which Palestinians were killed by the Israeli military in the course of the campaign. There were 92 such incidents, with 51 of these incidents caused the death of the 87 Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities. The report addresses findings of nine of B’Tselem’s investigations of incidents that suggest that the military acted in violation of the law.


Quote:
1. 15 November 2012: The killing of Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan, 14, of ‘Abasan al-Jadidah On the afternoon of 15 November 2012, an Israeli aircraft attacked an olive and lemon grove in the village of ‘Abasan al-Jadidah in the Khan Yunis district of the Gaza Strip. Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan, 14, who was working in the grove, was mortally wounded. His father’s uncle, Suliman Abu ‘Alayan, 64, was wounded by shrapnel and taken to the hospital. B’Tselem’s investigation indicated that armed Palestinians had launched rockets that morning from an olive grove near the one that was bombed by the Israeli military. However, relevant testimonies indicate that Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan and Suliman Abu ‘Alayan arrived at their own grove later, after the rocket fire, and had nothing to do with it.

The testimonies taken by B’Tselem state that on Thursday, 15 November, 14-year-old Ahmad, a tenth-grader, went out to work his family’s land, located about one kilometer east of his home. He fertilized and irrigated the plot until around 1:00 PM when he went home. After eating lunch, he returned to the grove to finish his work.

At around 2:30 PM, Suliman Abu ‘Alayan arrived at his own plot, located near the grove where Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan was working. Suliman Abu ‘Alayan finished his work and then
said his afternoon prayers. He related to B’Tselem what happened next: After I finished praying, I went over to Ahmad and was standing with him on their plot. I said to him, “Let’s go. The situation around here has gotten dangerous, because of the planes flying overhead.” While we were talking, a reconnaissance plane bombed us. I heard the sound of the missile that landed near us and caused a powerful explosion.10 Suliman Abu ‘Alayan lost consciousness. A short time later, he came to and called for help. Neighboring residents took him and Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan to the hospital. Suliman Abu ‘Alayan, who had been hit by shrapnel all over his body, was discharged four days later. Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan had also been hit by shrapnel, which included a brain injury. After six days in a coma, he died of his wounds. Following is the account by his father, ‘Awad Abu‘Alayan: My son was hospitalized in the intensive care unit at the European Hospital because a piece of shrapnel had hit his brain. Ahmad was unconscious for six days. During that entire time, I sat by his side. I was filled with anguish, seeing my son in a state of clinical death. I kept praying he would regain consciousness and talk to me, even just simple words. I longed to hear his voice, but it didn’t happen. He died at around 11:00 o’clock on Wednesday morning, 21 November 2012.11

B’Tselem applied to the IDF Spokesperson for further information about the circumstances of the incident. In response, the Military Advocate for Operational Matters informed B’Tselem on 11 April 2013 that the case-file had been closed once “no suspicion of a criminal offense. or a well-founded suspicion of violation of laws of war by any military entity had been found”.12 The response was given without any accompanying information to support this conclusion.



http://www.btselem.org/download/2013...ration_eng.pdf

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Old 05-13-2013, 03:17 PM
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so? since when was war an exact science?-

interestingly enough---neither is SURGERY

very often it is also a BLOODY MESS ---
in fact,, it is almost always a bloody mess

At the point that the surgeon picks up his
scapel----is the point at which the physician
has failed

only an idiot would dispute the term "surgical" attack
with the claim that IT WAS NOT 'surgical' ---because
there was blood. anyone here ever see a bloodless
surgery? Anyone here ever see a surgery that did
not violate some healthy tissue?

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:30 PM
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Oh, it's a good guess that the strikes were, indeed, precise and surgical.

Given that the Palestinians routinely and callously park their rocketry and other military assets in close proximity to civilian populations, when you make omelettes over there, yer gonna break a few eggs.

By 'precise' and 'surgical' I'm sure they mean that they got the Bad Guys and a handful of others nearby but did not rack up hundreds or thousands or civilian collateral-casualties as a less-precise and less-accuracy-motivated Retaliator might...

Don't want ANY civilian casualties?

There's a simple solution.

Stop launching rockets, etc., against the Israelis.

Problem solved.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:12 PM
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Btselem concludes the opposite to you. As they have expertise in investigating human rights abuses and you have none, I will accept their conclusions and reject yours. They carried out investigations in every case in which individuals not participating in the hostilities were killed. Israel has an obligation to comply with international law and not target civilians and civilian objects.

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Old 05-13-2013, 05:17 PM
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Holy mackeral. Sure sounds like this would be a great time to save the lives of Palestinians by the Palestinians apologizing to Israel for their rocket missile attacks & publically ending their vow to annihilate Israel.

But then, Palestinians will be Palestinians. When you're already in a hole --- keep on diggin'.



Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
Btselem conducted investigations of all instances in which Palestinians were killed by the Israeli military in the course of the campaign. There were 92 such incidents, with 51 of these incidents caused the death of the 87 Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities. The report addresses findings of nine of B’Tselem’s investigations of incidents that suggest that the military acted in violation of the law.


Quote:
1. 15 November 2012: The killing of Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan, 14, of ‘Abasan al-Jadidah On the afternoon of 15 November 2012, an Israeli aircraft attacked an olive and lemon grove in the village of ‘Abasan al-Jadidah in the Khan Yunis district of the Gaza Strip. Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan, 14, who was working in the grove, was mortally wounded. His father’s uncle, Suliman Abu ‘Alayan, 64, was wounded by shrapnel and taken to the hospital. B’Tselem’s investigation indicated that armed Palestinians had launched rockets that morning from an olive grove near the one that was bombed by the Israeli military. However, relevant testimonies indicate that Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan and Suliman Abu ‘Alayan arrived at their own grove later, after the rocket fire, and had nothing to do with it.

The testimonies taken by B’Tselem state that on Thursday, 15 November, 14-year-old Ahmad, a tenth-grader, went out to work his family’s land, located about one kilometer east of his home. He fertilized and irrigated the plot until around 1:00 PM when he went home. After eating lunch, he returned to the grove to finish his work.

At around 2:30 PM, Suliman Abu ‘Alayan arrived at his own plot, located near the grove where Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan was working. Suliman Abu ‘Alayan finished his work and then
said his afternoon prayers. He related to B’Tselem what happened next: After I finished praying, I went over to Ahmad and was standing with him on their plot. I said to him, “Let’s go. The situation around here has gotten dangerous, because of the planes flying overhead.” While we were talking, a reconnaissance plane bombed us. I heard the sound of the missile that landed near us and caused a powerful explosion.10 Suliman Abu ‘Alayan lost consciousness. A short time later, he came to and called for help. Neighboring residents took him and Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan to the hospital. Suliman Abu ‘Alayan, who had been hit by shrapnel all over his body, was discharged four days later. Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan had also been hit by shrapnel, which included a brain injury. After six days in a coma, he died of his wounds. Following is the account by his father, ‘Awad Abu‘Alayan: My son was hospitalized in the intensive care unit at the European Hospital because a piece of shrapnel had hit his brain. Ahmad was unconscious for six days. During that entire time, I sat by his side. I was filled with anguish, seeing my son in a state of clinical death. I kept praying he would regain consciousness and talk to me, even just simple words. I longed to hear his voice, but it didn’t happen. He died at around 11:00 o’clock on Wednesday morning, 21 November 2012.11

B’Tselem applied to the IDF Spokesperson for further information about the circumstances of the incident. In response, the Military Advocate for Operational Matters informed B’Tselem on 11 April 2013 that the case-file had been closed once “no suspicion of a criminal offense. or a well-founded suspicion of violation of laws of war by any military entity had been found”.12 The response was given without any accompanying information to support this conclusion.



http://www.btselem.org/download/2013...ration_eng.pdf
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:19 PM
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I am noting criticism over this report in comments of posters on Mondoweiss. We used to see stronger words used when war crimes were found. Censorship in Israeli society is I expect the explanation for this.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:27 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by MJB12741 View Post
Holy mackeral. Sure sounds like this would be a great time to save the lives of Palestinians by the Palestinians apologizing to Israel for their rocket missile attacks & publically ending their vow to annihilate Israel.

But then, Palestinians will be Palestinians. When you're already in a hole --- keep on diggin'.



Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
Btselem conducted investigations of all instances in which Palestinians were killed by the Israeli military in the course of the campaign. There were 92 such incidents, with 51 of these incidents caused the death of the 87 Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities. The report addresses findings of nine of B’Tselem’s investigations of incidents that suggest that the military acted in violation of the law.


Quote:
1. 15 November 2012: The killing of Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan, 14, of ‘Abasan al-Jadidah On the afternoon of 15 November 2012, an Israeli aircraft attacked an olive and lemon grove in the village of ‘Abasan al-Jadidah in the Khan Yunis district of the Gaza Strip. Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan, 14, who was working in the grove, was mortally wounded. His father’s uncle, Suliman Abu ‘Alayan, 64, was wounded by shrapnel and taken to the hospital. B’Tselem’s investigation indicated that armed Palestinians had launched rockets that morning from an olive grove near the one that was bombed by the Israeli military. However, relevant testimonies indicate that Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan and Suliman Abu ‘Alayan arrived at their own grove later, after the rocket fire, and had nothing to do with it.

The testimonies taken by B’Tselem state that on Thursday, 15 November, 14-year-old Ahmad, a tenth-grader, went out to work his family’s land, located about one kilometer east of his home. He fertilized and irrigated the plot until around 1:00 PM when he went home. After eating lunch, he returned to the grove to finish his work.

At around 2:30 PM, Suliman Abu ‘Alayan arrived at his own plot, located near the grove where Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan was working. Suliman Abu ‘Alayan finished his work and then
said his afternoon prayers. He related to B’Tselem what happened next: After I finished praying, I went over to Ahmad and was standing with him on their plot. I said to him, “Let’s go. The situation around here has gotten dangerous, because of the planes flying overhead.” While we were talking, a reconnaissance plane bombed us. I heard the sound of the missile that landed near us and caused a powerful explosion.10 Suliman Abu ‘Alayan lost consciousness. A short time later, he came to and called for help. Neighboring residents took him and Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan to the hospital. Suliman Abu ‘Alayan, who had been hit by shrapnel all over his body, was discharged four days later. Ahmad Abu ‘Alayan had also been hit by shrapnel, which included a brain injury. After six days in a coma, he died of his wounds. Following is the account by his father, ‘Awad Abu‘Alayan: My son was hospitalized in the intensive care unit at the European Hospital because a piece of shrapnel had hit his brain. Ahmad was unconscious for six days. During that entire time, I sat by his side. I was filled with anguish, seeing my son in a state of clinical death. I kept praying he would regain consciousness and talk to me, even just simple words. I longed to hear his voice, but it didn’t happen. He died at around 11:00 o’clock on Wednesday morning, 21 November 2012.11

B’Tselem applied to the IDF Spokesperson for further information about the circumstances of the incident. In response, the Military Advocate for Operational Matters informed B’Tselem on 11 April 2013 that the case-file had been closed once “no suspicion of a criminal offense. or a well-founded suspicion of violation of laws of war by any military entity had been found”.12 The response was given without any accompanying information to support this conclusion.



http://www.btselem.org/download/2013...ration_eng.pdf
Are you insane? A Palestinian boy is masacred as he works in his lemon and citrus groves and you want Palestinians to apologize. Some Israelis need to stand trial in the Hague for the war crime committed in the killing of this child.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:27 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
I am noting criticism over this report in comments of posters on Mondoweiss. We used to see stronger words used when war crimes were found. Censorship in Israeli society is I expect the explanation for this.
HUH? mondoweiss is a propaganda site. why would you want to
use propaganda sites? I avoid them completely---- I do not even
quote fine scholars like Robert Spencer ---simply because he writes
carrying the family legacy of being a catholic in Turkey----which is really
not all that much a horror as being christian in most other
islamic lands (my information about turkey is partly derived
from a brother-in-law born there---if he writes a book----I will not
quote that here either) What sort of censorship do they have in
"israeli society" are they knocking out access to the internet?
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:28 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
Btselem concludes the opposite to you. As they have expertise in investigating human rights abuses and you have none, I will accept their conclusions and reject yours. They carried out investigations in every case in which individuals not participating in the hostilities were killed. Israel has an obligation to comply with international law and not target civilians and civilian objects.
First, I have little doubt that Btselem's numbers are accurate or close to it, and that noncombatants were killed during many or most or all of those strikes.

All of which counters the early Israeli claims that no or few Palestinian civilians were killed or wounded.

Like I said, the Palestinians could avoid ANY innocent civilian casualties by moving their rocket-launchers and unit-bases AWAY FROM civilian population centers...

But they won't...

Because they WANT at least a modest number of civilian casualties...

It helps them with their clumsy propagandizing...

They could also avoid ANY innocent civilian casualties by halting rocket-launching and other military operations...

But they won't...

Which means, neither of those conditions are acceptable to them...

Then... so be it... the onus is upon the Palestinian Militants, not the Israelis...

Given those unacceptable and unbearable circumstances, the Israelis hit back hard, once they've been attacked, and after they can't tolerate one more in a sequence...

The Israelis do a damned-find job of keeping civilian casualties to a minimum IN THE CONTEXT OF the placement of Palestinian war-assets and their refusal to cease aggressive action...

Given that the Israelis working with blunt instruments such as bombs and artillery and the like, they do just fine in obtaining 'surgical' or 'precision' results...

Given the circumstances, and the 'relativity' of such terminology... ;-)

Besides...

Btselem is a Human Rights organization...

They are not competent to judge what is surgical and precise and what is not surgical and precise in a blunt-instrument warfare scenario...

So much for credentials in a military setting... :-)
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:32 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by irosie91 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
I am noting criticism over this report in comments of posters on Mondoweiss. We used to see stronger words used when war crimes were found. Censorship in Israeli society is I expect the explanation for this.
HUH? mondoweiss is a propaganda site. why would you want to
use propaganda sites? I avoid them completely---- I do not even
quote fine scholars like Robert Spencer ---simply because he writes
carrying the family legacy of being a catholic in Turkey----which is really
not all that much a horror as being christian in most other
islamic lands (my information about turkey is partly derived
from a brother-in-law born there---if he writes a book----I will not
quote that here either) What sort of censorship do they have in
"israeli society" are they knocking out access to the internet?
Jews of conscience in the US maintain Mondoweiss. CENSORSHIP explains things like government officials approving all news before it is reported. Probably they even have to approve Btselems report. Certainly puts a damper on freedom of speech.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:37 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Kondor3 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
Btselem concludes the opposite to you. As they have expertise in investigating human rights abuses and you have none, I will accept their conclusions and reject yours. They carried out investigations in every case in which individuals not participating in the hostilities were killed. Israel has an obligation to comply with international law and not target civilians and civilian objects.
First, I have little doubt that Btselem's numbers are accurate or close to it, and that noncombatants were killed during many or most or all of those strikes.

All of which counters the early Israeli claims that no or few Palestinian civilians were killed or wounded.

Like I said, the Palestinians could avoid ANY innocent civilian casualties by moving their rocket-launchers and unit-bases AWAY FROM civilian population centers...

But they won't...

Because they WANT at least a modest number of civilian casualties...

It helps them with their clumsy propagandizing...

They could also avoid ANY innocent civilian casualties by halting rocket-launching and other military operations...

But they won't...

Which means, neither of those conditions are acceptable to them...

Then... so be it... the onus is upon the Palestinian Militants, not the Israelis...

Given those unacceptable and unbearable circumstances, the Israelis hit back hard, once they've been attacked, and after they can't tolerate one more in a sequence...

The Israelis do a damned-find job of keeping civilian casualties to a minimum IN THE CONTEXT OF the placement of Palestinian war-assets and their refusal to cease aggressive action...

Given that the Israelis working with blunt instruments such as bombs and artillery and the like, they do just fine in obtaining 'surgical' or 'precision' results...

Given the circumstances, and the 'relativity' of such terminology... ;-)

Besides...

Btselem is a Human Rights organization...

They are not competent to judge what is surgical and precise and what is not surgical and precise in a blunt-instrument warfare scenario...

So much for credentials in a military setting... :-)
Well, being surgical is not even an element in defining war crimes. I expect they did not use certain words and chose others because of the censorship. What the report more importantly does is identify unlawful attacks that resulted in many unlawful killings which Israelis should be held accountable for.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
"...Well, being surgical is not even an element in defining war crimes. I expect they did not use certain words and chose others because of the censorship.What the report more importantly does is identify unlawful attacks that resulted in many unlawful killings which Israelis should be held accountable for."
Oh, and now we've moved the goal-posts, from talking about whether or not they are competent to judge military operations (surgical and precise) and results, to 'war-crimes'... uhhhhh.... yeppers.

It is not a war-crime to drop a bomb or launch a missile or fire-off an artillery or tank-gun round at a military target and its environs, and to hit civilians in the process... happens all the time... when war-assets are positioned amongst civilian populations.

Wanna look for 'war-crimes' in Gaza?

Look for the cold-hearted Palestinian bastards who positioned those rockets and guns and other assets amongst their civilians...

Now that's a war-crime!
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:49 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post
Btselem concludes the opposite to you. As they have expertise in investigating human rights abuses and you have none, I will accept their conclusions and reject yours. They carried out investigations in every case in which individuals not participating in the hostilities were killed. Israel has an obligation to comply with international law and not target civilians and civilian objects.
Here's a couple of civilians Israel targeted and good riddance. Now someone wants to make heroes out of terrorists.


Media Museum to Honor Hamas Terrorists | HonestReporting
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