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A message from Canada to the Palestinians

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Israel and Palestine Thoughts in this conflict?

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:49 AM
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Those are very good points, but when two parties are negotiating, I believe both should make offers and counter offers. Abbas did not make a counter offer from what I understand
I do agree with you, but I am confused about what happened at these meetings.

I read here:

Olmert Details His Offer to Abbas :: Middle East Forum

Olmert claim they had 35 meetings - and then Abbas seemed to lose interest.

That doesn't add up to me. If Olmert offered everything he said he did, I can't see why Abbas wouldn't have at least taken talks to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:57 AM
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Those are very good points, but when two parties are negotiating, I believe both should make offers and counter offers. Abbas did not make a counter offer from what I understand
I do agree with you, but I am confused about what happened at these meetings.

I read here:

Olmert Details His Offer to Abbas :: Middle East Forum

Olmert claim they had 35 meetings - and then Abbas seemed to lose interest.

That doesn't add up to me. If Olmert offered everything he said he did, I can't see why Abbas wouldn't have at least taken talks to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Yes, there are a couple of points missing here. Weird.
I'm guessing that had Abbas accepted the offer, then Hamas would have not been to happy ! Maybe he rejected it out of fear?
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:00 AM
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Toastman -

It is possible. But he would also have been hailed around the world, and would have been a cert for a Nobel Peace Prize. And he would have got what I think most Palestinians would think was a great deal.

I am curious now...I'll see what I can find out.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:31 PM
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I have to say that I'm disappointed that the best response Canada can muster to the endless construction in the West Bank is to act as Israel's PR agency.

It is woefully one sided, painfully short-sighted and not beneficial to Canada's normally positive reputation abroad. It seems to me that the Canadians have simply crumpled into the lap of lobbyists.

Regardless of how one sees an eventual solution to the Palestinian issues - the construction are an extremely hostile and counter-productive move.
Once again Saigon. Abbas was offered 93%, which is virtually all, of the West Bank (as well as Gaza being completely under control of the Palestinians, and sharing East Jerusalem. He rejected.

You are correct!

The Palestinians were also offered by Ehud Barak a very generous peace settlement at Camp David in 2000, but of course this was rejected by Arafat because the Palestinians won't settle for just a two state solution, what they really want is one state solution!!! that is all of Gaza, the West bank and Israel!

PALESTINIANS = ETERNAL TROUBLEMAKERS
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:37 PM
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Those are very good points, but when two parties are negotiating, I believe both should make offers and counter offers. Abbas did not make a counter offer from what I understand
I do agree with you, but I am confused about what happened at these meetings.

I read here:

Olmert Details His Offer to Abbas :: Middle East Forum

Olmert claim they had 35 meetings - and then Abbas seemed to lose interest.

That doesn't add up to me. If Olmert offered everything he said he did, I can't see why

Abbas wouldn't have at least taken talks to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Yes, there are a couple of points missing here. Weird.
I'm guessing that had Abbas accepted the offer, then Hamas would have not been to happy ! Maybe he rejected it out of fear?

Toast---I think you are right-----arafart did say something about
"if I make a deal I will die"-----no actual deal can be
made with the ZIONIST ENTITY----by any muslim leader---
it either kills them or puts them in jail or in exile or hiding
until they are dead. The ZIONIST ENTITY is not supposed
to exist
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:20 PM
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Saigon, BecauseIKnow, reabhloideach, SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Is it really this? Or could it be something else?

I have to say that I'm disappointed that the best response Canada can muster to the endless construction in the West Bank is to act as Israel's PR agency.

It is woefully one sided, painfully short-sighted and not beneficial to Canada's normally positive reputation abroad. It seems to me that the Canadians have simply crumpled into the lap of lobbyists.

Regardless of how one sees an eventual solution to the Palestinian issues - the construction are an extremely hostile and counter-productive move.
(COMMENT)

Why should Canadians feel compeled to donate anything at all to the Palestinians? They do this because they feel it is the right thing to do; not because the owe the Palestinians anything.

I live not far from Canada. They are their own people - a proud people, with a mind of their own. If they think America is wrong, believe me when I say, they will tell us in a heartbeat (and they have).

I cannot speak for the Canadians; but, I would venture to say they have a good argument for anything they do. My experience has been that they are well educated and versed on the issues.

No one, with the possible exception of the Arab League, owes the Palestinians anything. I'm sure they can find another benefactor. Maybe their Iranian sponsors will be willing to pickup the slack.

I still think that if the Palestinians believe they have a good case, they should pursue it in court. Let's see it litigated and look at the security issues that the Palestinians have raised.

Most Respectfully,
R
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:43 PM
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You are correct!

The Palestinians were also offered by Ehud Barak a very generous peace settlement at Camp David in 2000, but of course this was rejected by Arafat because the Palestinians won't settle for just a two state solution, what they really want is one state solution!!! that is all of Gaza, the West bank and Israel!

PALESTINIANS = ETERNAL TROUBLEMAKERS

....was it so generous?

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Quote:
Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israelís proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.
If the positions were reversed - would you have expected Israel to agree to such terms?

No sane person would.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2013, 05:17 PM
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You are correct!

The Palestinians were also offered by Ehud Barak a very generous peace settlement at Camp David in 2000, but of course this was rejected by Arafat because the Palestinians won't settle for just a two state solution, what they really want is one state solution!!! that is all of Gaza, the West bank and Israel!

PALESTINIANS = ETERNAL TROUBLEMAKERS

....was it so generous?

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Quote:
Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israelís proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.
If the positions were reversed - would you have expected Israel to agree to such terms?

No sane person would.


You have to be careful in this case, to present reliable sources, which can only be those people who were actually present at the time of the negotiations.
Dennis Ross was the chief Middle East negotiator and was intimately involved in them from start to finish.

The final proposal in December known as the "Clinton Parametres" would have produced an independent Palestinian State with 100% of Gaza, about 97% of the West Bank and an elevated highway to connect them.

The talks fell apart as Arafat was not interested, for the very reason that his aim always called for the destruction of Israel, and to accept a Peace offer would have been seen as a weakness.

Times haven't changed , despite all the hypocrisy and bluster, the Palestinians still want much more than they can ever reasonably expect.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2013, 05:47 PM
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You are correct!

The Palestinians were also offered by Ehud Barak a very generous peace settlement at Camp David in 2000, but of course this was rejected by Arafat because the Palestinians won't settle for just a two state solution, what they really want is one state solution!!! that is all of Gaza, the West bank and Israel!

PALESTINIANS = ETERNAL TROUBLEMAKERS

....was it so generous?

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Quote:
Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israelís proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.
If the positions were reversed - would you have expected Israel to agree to such terms?

No sane person would.


You have to be careful in this case, to present reliable sources, which can only be those people who were actually present at the time of the negotiations.
Dennis Ross was the chief Middle East negotiator and was intimately involved in them from start to finish.

The final proposal in December known as the "Clinton Parametres" would have produced an independent Palestinian State with 100% of Gaza, about 97% of the West Bank and an elevated highway to connect them.

The talks fell apart as Arafat was not interested, for the very reason that his aim always called for the destruction of Israel, and to accept a Peace offer would have been seen as a weakness.

Times haven't changed , despite all the hypocrisy and bluster, the Palestinians still want much more than they can ever reasonably expect.
Quote:
You have to be careful in this case, to present reliable sources,
Indeed.

Dennis Ross is a lying sack of crap.

Coyote's version is quite accurate.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:14 PM
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Those are very good points, but when two parties are negotiating, I believe both should make offers and counter offers. Abbas did not make a counter offer from what I understand
I do agree with you, but I am confused about what happened at these meetings.

I read here:

Olmert Details His Offer to Abbas :: Middle East Forum

Olmert claim they had 35 meetings - and then Abbas seemed to lose interest.

That doesn't add up to me. If Olmert offered everything he said he did, I can't see why Abbas wouldn't have at least taken talks to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Maybe no Arab leader is allowed to make peace with Israel if he knows what is good for him. I thought this opinion piece was interesting.

Things you can't see from DC - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:24 PM
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You have to be careful in this case, to present reliable sources, which can only be those people who were actually present at the time of the negotiations.
Dennis Ross was the chief Middle East negotiator and was intimately involved in them from start to finish.

The final proposal in December known as the "Clinton Parametres" would have produced an independent Palestinian State with 100% of Gaza, about 97% of the West Bank and an elevated highway to connect them.

The talks fell apart as Arafat was not interested, for the very reason that his aim always called for the destruction of Israel, and to accept a Peace offer would have been seen as a weakness.

Times haven't changed , despite all the hypocrisy and bluster, the Palestinians still want much more than they can ever reasonably expect.
You're not offering any sources much less reliable ones. What you say does not address the specific points given in my source (which linked to other sources) - are you claiming they are all false?
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:28 PM
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Those are very good points, but when two parties are negotiating, I believe both should make offers and counter offers. Abbas did not make a counter offer from what I understand
I do agree with you, but I am confused about what happened at these meetings.

I read here:

Olmert Details His Offer to Abbas :: Middle East Forum

Olmert claim they had 35 meetings - and then Abbas seemed to lose interest.

That doesn't add up to me. If Olmert offered everything he said he did, I can't see why Abbas wouldn't have at least taken talks to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Maybe no Arab leader is allowed to make peace with Israel if he knows what is good for him. I thought this opinion piece was interesting.

Things you can't see from DC - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews
Quote:
US President Obama and Secretary of State Kerry are expected to visit the region together in late March to try and promote an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement.
Move along folks. There is nothing to see here.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:46 PM
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You have to be careful in this case, to present reliable sources, which can only be those people who were actually present at the time of the negotiations.
Dennis Ross was the chief Middle East negotiator and was intimately involved in them from start to finish.

The final proposal in December known as the "Clinton Parametres" would have produced an independent Palestinian State with 100% of Gaza, about 97% of the West Bank and an elevated highway to connect them.

The talks fell apart as Arafat was not interested, for the very reason that his aim always called for the destruction of Israel, and to accept a Peace offer would have been seen as a weakness.

Times haven't changed , despite all the hypocrisy and bluster, the Palestinians still want much more than they can ever reasonably expect.
You're not offering any sources much less reliable ones. What you say does not address the specific points given in my source (which linked to other sources) - are you claiming they are all false?


Your links are unreliable and bias, but if you do your own research you will find what I have said is correct.

The best authorities, rather than the journalists and authors of books and other hearsay are the people who were actually present at the Camp David summit, which were President Clinton, Ehud Barak, Arafat and Dennis Ross.


Clinton blamed Arafat for the failure of the talks, stating "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the oportunity to bring that nation into being". Dennis Ross said "Arafat was unwilling to sing a final deal and the ultimate reason is that Arafat really wanted a one state solution [ie] a single Arab state including Gaza the West Bank and Israel".

Barak himself stated that he had offered Arafat more than 91% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip, with other compensation going to the Palestinians.

You must remember that Arafat did not even proposed a counter or final offer .... he merely ended negotiations.

Had he been serious, which of course he wasn't he probably would achieved a much better result for the Palestinians.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:51 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by P F Tinmore Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

I do agree with you, but I am confused about what happened at these meetings.

I read here:

Olmert Details His Offer to Abbas :: Middle East Forum

Olmert claim they had 35 meetings - and then Abbas seemed to lose interest.

That doesn't add up to me. If Olmert offered everything he said he did, I can't see why Abbas wouldn't have at least taken talks to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Maybe no Arab leader is allowed to make peace with Israel if he knows what is good for him. I thought this opinion piece was interesting.

Things you can't see from DC - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews
Quote:
US President Obama and Secretary of State Kerry are expected to visit the region together in late March to try and promote an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement.
Move along folks. There is nothing to see here.
Obama and Kerry will be pissing into the wind,
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:00 PM
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I have to say that I'm disappointed that the best response Canada can muster to the endless construction in the West Bank is to act as Israel's PR agency.

It is woefully one sided, painfully short-sighted and not beneficial to Canada's normally positive reputation abroad. It seems to me that the Canadians have simply crumpled into the lap of lobbyists.

Regardless of how one sees an eventual solution to the Palestinian issues - the construction are an extremely hostile and counter-productive move.
Once again Saigon. Abbas was offered 93%, which is virtually all, of the West Bank (as well as Gaza being completely under control of the Palestinians, and sharing East Jerusalem. He rejected.
you keep, dare I say, spaming 93%...can you tell us what the 7% was?
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