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Palestinian resistance fighters survive three targeted bombings

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Israel and Palestine Thoughts in this conflict?

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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2012, 09:33 AM
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Palistians, free your mind and end the abuse of you by your fellow Muslims, come join the winning team. We'll let you meet Pamela Anderson.
I think you'd have more luck with Hayden Panetierre.
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2012, 10:11 AM
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There is little question that the Arab World attempted --- not once, but several times --- to use these lands as a gateway to corrupt the sovereign integrity of Israel (hostile intent). It really makes little difference which Arab nation or subgroup controlled, or held title to, what territory prior to the outbreak of hostilities. It is historically clear that the entire region conspired to overthrow the sovereignty of Israel (as recognized by the UN Membership in May 1949).
Unfortunately, before zionists stood up and declared sovereignty with no legal justification to do so, it can also be argued, that zionists migrating into the area, did so with the intent of corrupting the sovereignty of the indigenous people who were already living in that area for generations. You can't move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

And you can't claim "hostile intent" for one side and not acknowledge the "hostile intent" of the other side. Jewish terrorism drove out over 700,000 Palestinian's. And the former PM of Israel who recently died, is a good example of that.

Quote:
The Zionist terror campaign of Plan Dalet, put into effect in early 1948 and described by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, consisted of “large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding population centres; setting fires to homes, properties, and goods; expulsion; demolition; and finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning.”

Shamir seemed to relish the opportunity to terrorize, murder and ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous population into order to make room for the nascent state of Israel. The massacre of Deir Yassin in April 1948, during which over 100 unarmed villagers were murdered, was carried out by Zionist commandos of Shamir’s Lehi and Menachem Begin’s Irgun (of which Shamir was a former member).
So arabs had good reason to be hostile to zionists.

There is no question that, whichever entity had sovereign control over the lands collectively known as the "Occupied Territories" (so designated by the UNSC and the ICJ under international law) the stewardship was less than honorable. The UNSC and the ICJ both recognize that by designating the land as "Occupied" that in fact inclusively they acknowledged as it being seized as a result of "war." This essentially nullified the 1949 Armistice Agreement.
The '67 borders have international recognition as Israel's borders. And there is only one way to solve the problem of "occupation" and that is to end it. There are no other legal options available. An occupying force is merely a temporary caretaker and administrator, not an owner.

Quote:
Art. 6. The present Convention shall apply from the outset of any conflict or occupation mentioned in Article 2.

In the territory of Parties to the conflict, the application of the present Convention shall cease on the general close of military operations.

In the case of occupied territory, the application of the present Convention shall cease one year after the general close of military operations; however, the Occupying Power shall be bound, for the duration of the occupation, to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory, by the provisions of the following Articles of the present Convention: 1 to 12, 27, 29 to 34, 47, 49, 51, 52, 53, 59, 61 to 77, 143.
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2012, 11:55 AM
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by P F Tinmore Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

What you call "Palestine" IS Israel borders. Since "Palestine" is not a state, it is PALESTINE which does not have actual borders.
The 1949 armistice agreements were after the end of the Mandate, after resolution 181, after Israel declared itself to be a state, and after the 1948 war.

Quote:
Article I

With a view to promoting the return of permanent peace in Palestine solid in recognition of the importance in this regard of mutual assurances concerning the future military operations of the Parties, the following principles, which shall be fully observed by both Parties during the armistice, are hereby affirmed:

Article V

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
Israel claims the border between Lebanon and Palestine as theirs. I can find no documentation to back up that claim.
You couldn't find your hind end with both hands, Twinkie.
Cool, then you can find documentation to where Israel established borders with Lebanon.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by P F Tinmore Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
Quote: Originally Posted by P F Tinmore Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

The 1949 armistice agreements were after the end of the Mandate, after resolution 181, after Israel declared itself to be a state, and after the 1948 war.



Israel claims the border between Lebanon and Palestine as theirs. I can find no documentation to back up that claim.
You couldn't find your hind end with both hands, Twinkie.
Cool, then you can find documentation to where Israel established borders with Lebanon.
Israel still unlawfully occupies Sheeba Farms, that belongs to Lebanon.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2012, 01:00 PM
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lionboy, lipush, et al,

Certainly, is is ONE of the keystone issues.

It is your fault you've maintained an illegal occupation of land that isn't yours for the last 45 years.
(COMMENT)

Clearly, the plaintiffs (selected Palestinians) have a complaint in this regard; but not the entire Arab World.

The occupation came as a result of the Six Day War (1967); pursuant to Chapter VII, Article 51 (Self-Defense). It was further aggravated in what is known as the Yom Kippur War (1973).

The Occupied Territories (capture of the Gaza Strip, Sinai, the West Bank and the Golan Heights) were acquired after the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Algeria were defeated by Israel in 1967; and the seizure was re-affirmed in a trial by combat in 1973. At the conclusion of the 1973 War (Yom Kipper), Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Algeria lost all claim.

The question was later reopened when, in 1993, the Oslo Accords concluded that these territories were to become a part of the Palestinian state. The key questions today are:
  • Who abrogated the Oslo Accords?
  • And, are the these captured territories sovereign to the Arab Nations that lost the wars?
  • Are these territories now under lawful sovereign control of Israel; --- won in trial by combat a half-century ago?

Most Respectfully,
R
The answers are as follows:
Israel didn't live up to their part of the Oslo Accords, which made the "Accords" un-enforceable.

The question regarding arab rights to that land is still being decided; However, Israeli rights to that land, has been decided and it came down as a big fat NO. Israel has no right to that land.

You cannot hold onto land seized in a war.
loinboy,

I agree, except with respect to the second question, I think sovereignty clearly lies with the indigenous Palestinian Arab peoples, not the Arab nations of Jordan and Egypt. This land is what is left of the land set aside as an Arab State by the UN Partition Plan.

The problem is 500,000+ Israeli illegal settlers now live in this land, completely unlawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention, their daily presence constituting war crimes. If they do not leave, there cannot be an Arab State there. And there is noone and no mechanism to make them leave, this is the problem today with the two state solution, and why practically speaking it is probably dead. The US could play a positive role here in saving the two state solution, if we would choose to do so, but there is no indication we will. The US chooses instead to just keep funding and supporting the continuing Occupation, instead of funding and supporting peace.

Sherri
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
lionboy, lipush, et al,

Certainly, is is ONE of the keystone issues.


(COMMENT)

Clearly, the plaintiffs (selected Palestinians) have a complaint in this regard; but not the entire Arab World.

The occupation came as a result of the Six Day War (1967); pursuant to Chapter VII, Article 51 (Self-Defense). It was further aggravated in what is known as the Yom Kippur War (1973).

The Occupied Territories (capture of the Gaza Strip, Sinai, the West Bank and the Golan Heights) were acquired after the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Algeria were defeated by Israel in 1967; and the seizure was re-affirmed in a trial by combat in 1973. At the conclusion of the 1973 War (Yom Kipper), Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Algeria lost all claim.

The question was later reopened when, in 1993, the Oslo Accords concluded that these territories were to become a part of the Palestinian state. The key questions today are:
  • Who abrogated the Oslo Accords?
  • And, are the these captured territories sovereign to the Arab Nations that lost the wars?
  • Are these territories now under lawful sovereign control of Israel; --- won in trial by combat a half-century ago?

Most Respectfully,
R
The answers are as follows:
Israel didn't live up to their part of the Oslo Accords, which made the "Accords" un-enforceable.

The question regarding arab rights to that land is still being decided; However, Israeli rights to that land, has been decided and it came down as a big fat NO. Israel has no right to that land.

You cannot hold onto land seized in a war.
loinboy,

I agree, except with respect to the second question, I think sovereignty clearly lies with the indigenous Palestinian Arab peoples, not the Arab nations of Jordan and Egypt. This land is what is left of the land set aside as an Arab State by the UN Partition Plan.

The problem is 500,000+ Israeli illegal settlers now live in this land, completely unlawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention, their daily presence constituting war crimes. If they do not leave, there cannot be an Arab State there. And there is noone and no mechanism to make them leave, this is the problem today with the two state solution, and why practically speaking it is probably dead. The US could play a positive role here in saving the two state solution, if we would choose to do so, but there is no indication we will. The US chooses instead to just keep funding and supporting the continuing Occupation, instead of funding and supporting peace.

Sherri
I agree with your post except for one thing.

Quote:
This land is what is left of the land set aside as an Arab State by the UN Partition Plan.
The partition plan was sent to the Security Council for implementation. The Security Council rejected the plan.

Resolution 181 didn't happen. I means nothing.
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
loinboy,

I agree, except with respect to the second question, I think sovereignty clearly lies with the indigenous Palestinian Arab peoples, not the Arab nations of Jordan and Egypt. This land is what is left of the land set aside as an Arab State by the UN Partition Plan.

The problem is 500,000+ Israeli illegal settlers now live in this land, completely unlawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention, their daily presence constituting war crimes. If they do not leave, there cannot be an Arab State there. And there is noone and no mechanism to make them leave, this is the problem today with the two state solution, and why practically speaking it is probably dead. The US could play a positive role here in saving the two state solution, if we would choose to do so, but there is no indication we will. The US chooses instead to just keep funding and supporting the continuing Occupation, instead of funding and supporting peace.

Sherri
It's okay we can disagree. No big deal there. I don't even mind admitting I'm wrong and changing my opinion when the situation calls for it. Unlike some people around here, I don't consider being wrong tantamount to death; for me, it's just a coarse correction.

BTW, those settlers are ****in' psycho's! Even the Israeli government is afraid of pissing them off! They assassinated their own PM because they thought he was a little too appeasing to the Pals. They're Israel's equivalent to the "skin-heads".
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2012, 01:30 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by P F Tinmore Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
The partition plan was sent to the Security Council for implementation. The Security Council rejected the plan.

Resolution 181 didn't happen. I means nothing.
Why is it we can disagree without WWIII starting?

Is this the abberation, or the norm?
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