I posted this on another thread, but didn't seem to get any takers, so I stared anew:

I've been seeing a lot of call outs regarding anti-semitism and anti-Palestinians. Often the reply is that the poster doesn't hate Jews, but rather Zionists. Then there are the accusations that the Israelis are repeating Nazi behaviors. How? Lord knows the arguments of 'stolen lands' from the wars are enough to make any sane person lift up their arms in exasperation; however, if every inch was returned, no conditions, would that make it ok? Or is the real problem the existence of any Jewish land? Is the real argument that a two state solution is wrong, that their should ONLY be Palestinian land?

What do you consider Zionism? Why is it so offensive? Do you believe a two state solution is viable? If yes, under what conditions? If no, why not? What about the right of return? If yes, why? If no, what is wrong with it?

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

This is the Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., position. And while these Palestinian murderers indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, Shogun and his supporters bemoan the treatment of those who backup the killing. Not once in any of Shogun's nauseatingly rabid spew on this board did I read anything about the way Palestinians rejected the Israelis when they were offered 99 percent of what they demanded at Camp David, including a Palestinian State and the return of almost all occupied land. Not once did I read condemnation of Palestinians resuming the murder campaign after Camp David. No the 99 percent the Palestinians received at Camp David was not good enough. Instead they, and their supporters, seek to erase Israel.

A two-state solution seems to me to be the only solution. How to get there and how to make it work are the problems of course.

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I've seen the wild horses, I've heard the bull roarers

Well that seems to be what I've read too. But perhaps we're wrong in what was meant. I certainly want to know what they see as 'so evil' about Zionism, since that seems to be the crux of their argument.

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

In order for a two state solution, one of the states would be Israel. Is that ok, or is that Zionism?

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

It is not zionism. Zionism is Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme. It would be what communism is to the average left-leaning person, or fascism is to the average right-leaning person - the extreme. A two-party state is the only solution. But as has been proven (and will happen again), give them autonomy and they'll start eating themselves (a la Hamas and Fatah at the moment). Same thing will happen when or if the Kurds ever get a home state. Once they get it, there'll be infighting like you wouldn't believe..

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"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins

“The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict”

Compiled, Edited, and Published by Jews for Justice in The Middle East

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?

“The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was ‘to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.’...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha’am wrote that the Arabs “understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at’...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated][b] ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund’s request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

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"We have an obligation and a responsibility to be investing in our students and our schools. We must make sure that people who have the grades, the desire and the will, but not the money, can still get the best education possible." Barack Obama

So a state for Israelis should NOT exist, isn't that what is being said by the 2 last posters?

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

? I was one of those posters. Where in my post did I directly - hell, even indirectly - say that Israel should not exist?

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"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins

You're correct, I jumped too quickly, but I suppose it was the definition of Zionism.

I'm not sold on that. Besides I've had this argument with others before, nationalism and extremism is redundant. Nationalism is wrong, unless one changes the definition, doesn't matter the modifier thrown in front of it.

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

Why do you consider it Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme? From my readings it's the desire for the homeland and national sovereignty, not nationalism. Are you sure that it hasn't been spun into what you said? On the other hand, if it weren't for Hitler, would it have happened? IMHO, no. Neither the Jews nor 'The West' would have caused it's existence. Yet, the holocaust did happen, Israel was constructed, the people living there, "Not Palestine" were offered and refused their own state. They refused then, have since that time.

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

I have said - I think here, but no matter I'm happy to restate it - that Israel has a right to exist. Given that then I have to say that the other state must be Palestine. Now, getting to that point is difficult enough of course but working out the details is horrendous. But I can't see any other solution. If someone brings up dismantling Israel as a state, no, it's unjust.

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I've seen the wild horses, I've heard the bull roarers

For some reason I'm unsurprised with your reply. Perhaps because I think you rational?

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

On Zionism - I was under the impression that it was a movement that held the establishment of Israel as its objective. Looks like it worked. If Zionism is now holding onto Israel then I suppose I have to say I support Zionism. If it means trampling the rights of non-Jewish Israelis or of grabbing land outside the current bounds of Israel then I don't support Zionism.

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I've seen the wild horses, I've heard the bull roarers

I must be having one of my better days then

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I've seen the wild horses, I've heard the bull roarers