I find it hilarious that prior to this latest finding the left has insisted our intel is faulty , our agencies wrong, the Administration to able to change the information, etc etc etc...

NOW though THIS new report, it is absolutely breath takingly right on.

I do not doubt that the new information may be correct, I just find it knee slapping funny that someone is wrong for years until suddenly the one time they say what the left wants to hear. Then they are a breath of fresh air.

Of course this is standard for the left, remember from 2000 through 2004 how our election process was stolen and corrupt and the republicans controlled it? Then 2006 the dems win and suddenly all is fine with the system again?

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The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

Yes, it's impossible for the intelligence services to improve their performance over the past 7 years. Of course they're just as fractured, just as prone to turf wars and silo behaviour now as they were 7 years ago. No way could they have improved their performance after the massively incompetent performance leading up the invasion of Iraq. No, everything stays the same.

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I've seen the wild horses, I've heard the bull roarers

Sure thing, once again if OUR intelligence agencies where as bad as you claim, that means the entire western intelligence apperatus was JUST as bad, or in a lot of cases even worse. Germany believed that Iraq was 2 years away from a bomb in 2002. For example.

Do twitter on as you cherry pick what you want to hear and believe.

__________________
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

What point is it exactly you are attempting to make? Well, besides trying to take a backhanded swipe at Bush and blame the intelligence community's failures on him?

The premise of RGS's statement is correct as I have pointed out in a couple other threads. Not to mention the fact that the IAEA has stated Iran's nuclear weapons program is on hold. THAT in itself is an admission there IS a program.

The left's newfound faith in the intel community is based solely on hearing what it wants to. Y'all do that a LOT.

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You can't always be first .... but you CAN be NEXT

Just going on past performance, which was pretty piss poor.

Intelligence gathering too a big hit when everyone thought technology was the be-all and end-all. Humanint is still preferable. Hopefully we'll all learn lessons from too much reliance on technology and not enough on gumshoes on the ground.

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I've seen the wild horses, I've heard the bull roarers

in the same vein...it is also possible the intelligence services have gotten worse over the past seven years....

I agree that HUMINT is critical and the techies have pushed that aside for some time now; the cost of ignoring HUMINT (or putting TOO much faith in it) is still up for debate.

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"Why, it appears that we appointed all of our worst generals to command the armies and we appointed all of our best generals to edit the newspapers. I mean, I found by reading a newspaper that these editor generals saw all of the defects plainly from the start but didn't tell me until it was too late. I'm willing to yield my place to these best generals and I'll do my best for the cause by editing a newspaper." -- Gen. Robert E. Lee

I'll stand accused of many things, but backhanding Bush is one I won't stand for. It will be up front when I criticise his administration. Anyway it's got to the point where it's too easy, I can't be bothered, just counting down now.

Now, about your query. If the intelligence community hasn't sorted itself out after 9/11 then all of us - well the west - are in big trouble. I sincerely hope that the US intelligence community (btw feel free to have a go at ours in Aus, we could have a rollicking good time exploring how incompetent our is, I tell you, it's no frigging joke but it produces peals of laughter in a discussion).

Bush is madly trying to minimise the intel on this. He needs you to be scared of someone, anyone, just someone. iran will do, Iran is the big bogeyman. You have Cheney snarling into Bush's ear that Iran has to be bombed because they have nukes. Now they don't have nukes I suppose the bombing of Iran has been put off. Forget the Israel lobby, Bush needs America to be frightened so that he can keep dismantling your democracy. Gotta have that good old Patriot Act to save the nation from the bogeyman.
The paradox is that Bush is trying to convince you that AQ is done in, that Iraq is a doddle. Damn, that means no more bogeymen to frighten people with. Ah, Iran. But, damnit, Iran hasn't got a nuke yet, can't fire an ICBM and nuke the homeland. No, he'll just deny the intel and babble on about how Iran was, is and will be a danger. Hollow man, a hollow man.

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I've seen the wild horses, I've heard the bull roarers

1) The conclusions of this NIE are a total 100% consensus. All intelligence agencies agreed with the core findings. In contrast, The 2002 NIE was riven with caveats and dissents. INR and DOE in particular, dissented from some of the core findings of the 2002 Iraq NIE.

2) After a multi-million dollar investigation, and a high profile presidential commission in 2004, the intelligence process was supposed to be updated and fixed. If they didn't improve anything, then its another stunning failure for your president.

3) The conclusions of this NIE are corroborated by independent international agencies: IAEA too, says it can't find evidence of a nuclear weapons program in Iran. Also, Inspectors on the ground in Iraq in 2003 couldn't find any evidence of the WMD the 2002 NIE claimed were there.

4) Even Bush is agreeing with this NIE. Bush, the american intel community, the IAEA -- the consensus is 100% is agreement, unlike the 2002 Iraq NIE.

Come on, just admit you LIKE this report so it is suddenly right. And as I recall you and several others have INSISTED Bush controls those agencies and only gets intel he wants burying the rest.

As for Diuretic's bullshit , Bush did not create the Patriot act, and the dems have voted for it every time, further it has an end date built in.

Still waiting for Dictator Bush to seize the Government like you baffoons have claimed he plans. I love how he is at one minute an evil Genius and when it suits you the idiot that can not tie his shoe laces.

I love how foreigners with less freedoms then us are so damn worried about our freedoms.

__________________
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

What ARE you talking about? You left out the subject or even a link to it.

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BUSH-BASHER entoto and proud to be.

Did that state it is on hold here? or is that just your spin? Please show us.

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BUSH-BASHER entoto and proud to be.

Sorry Doniston this thread is for people able to think. That you have no idea what I am talking about is once more proof off your ignorance. Go get a towel to wipe the drool from your chin please.

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The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.

-Bertrand Russell

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

-Laurence J. Peters

I never said that you had no right to have an opinion. I just said that it was, in fact, worth nothing.

-Maineman ( on 12 June 2007)

Perhaps you should go chase your tail. that appears to be about all you are good for.

Question: Did you cite a subject? or not???

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BUSH-BASHER entoto and proud to be.

Hey, I guess we can always OUT the agents in the intel community that don't fall in line...

RGS, classic strawman.

I remember this issue well as I got in a loud argument over it in a Wilmington diner, at the time a Google search would have served to prove all you needed to know.


"The range of what we think and do is limited by what we fail to notice. And because we fail to notice that we fail to notice, there is little we can do to change; until we notice how failing to notice shapes our thoughts and deeds." R. D. Laing