The world didn't change on September 11, 2001...America DID

you might want to do an edit there... all of the hijackers were here legally.

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"Trust none of what you hear And less of what you see" Springsteen

When the Founding Fathers protected our right to free speech, I think that meant we were supposed to use it.

Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi was the world's most unhinged lunatic. He's now dead. So that moves Ann Coulter up to first place - David Letterman

O, when she is angry she is keen and shrewd; / She was a vixen when she went to school, / And though she be but little, she is fierce. — Shakespeare

Yes, kids. We're just THAT awesome!

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"I will continue to be an impossible man as long as those men who are possible today remain possible." - Bakunin, letter to Ogarev.

"The ultimate aim of production is not production of goods, but the production of free human beings associated with one another on terms of equality." - John Dewey.

"It is embarrassing that the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council are responsible for the largest quantity of arms sales to the developing world. The very countries that should be maintaining world peace and security are the ones most responsible for promoting war and insecurity by producing and selling weapons." - Oscar Arias, 1987 Nobel Peace Prize Winner.

The thread is not about the EVENT, it's about the change in attitude of the people of our country.

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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

well for many of us that was a realization of just how deep the corruption and lies go..that was the effect

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"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861

Remember, remember, the 11th of september The Gunpowder Treason and plot;
I see of no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.....

Bfrgn: I hear ya. I also remember on AOL that you said I should commit suicide or some such. Remember that? You later defended that as hyperbole. Well, this thread, and this example, is not a shinning example. Either about immigration or terrorism. This man, Mr Amahd might have more to do with unfortunate circumstances and his personal lifestyle than anything else? My mothers' health care provider didn't catch the fact she had a fatal illness until 2 hours before she died. Coincidentaly, in September, 2001. I still don't know were to go with this thread, dear sir. I really don't. On any level you chose.

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I don't monkey around. I am a PC.

How the FBI and 9/11 Commission Suppressed Key Evidence about Hani Hanjour
Text size

Mark H. Gaffney
The 9/11 Mystery Plane, by Mark H. Gaffney
July 7, 2009

The evidence was crucial because it undermined the official explanation that Hani Hanjour crashed American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon at high speed after executing an extremely difficult top gun maneuver. But to understand how all of this played out, let us review the case in bite-size pieces…

In August 2004 when the 9/11 Commission completed its official investigation of the September 11, 2001 attack, the commission transferred custody of its voluminous records to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).[1] There, the records remained under lock and key for four and a half years, until last January when NARA released a fraction of the total for public viewing. Each day, more of the released files are scanned and posted on the Internet, making them readily accessible. Although most of the newly-released documents are of little interest, the files I will discuss in this article contain important new information.

As we know, the 9/11 Commission did not begin its work until 2003–––more than a year after the fact. By this time a number of journalists had already done independent research and published articles about various facets of 9/11. Some of this work was of excellent quality. The Washington Post, for example, interviewed aviation experts who stated that the plane allegedly piloted by Hani Hanjour [AA Flight 77] had been flown “with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm.”[2] Yet, strangely, when other journalists investigated Hani Hanjour they found a trail of clues indicating he was a novice pilot, wholly incapable of executing a top gun maneuver and a successful suicide attack in a Boeing 757. By early 2003 this independent research was a matter of public record, which created a serious problem for the 9/11 Commission…

The 9/11 Mystery Plane, by Mark H. Gaffney

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"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861

Remember, remember, the 11th of september The Gunpowder Treason and plot;
I see of no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.....

Maybe you just need to read the whole article...which can't be posted on this site...

I don't recall the conversation you're talking about, but I'm glad you didn't take what I said literally...

From the article:

Since he had no known health problems, his friends were shocked and disbelieving. They were told that Mr. Ahmad had suffered a heart attack in the jail, and despite all efforts to revive him, had been pronounced dead in a hospital emergency room at 5:51 p.m. on Sept. 9. An autopsy cited “occlusive coronary atherosclerosis.”

His friends did not know that the jail had a history of detainee complaints of medical neglect and physical abuse, and did not allow guards to send detainees to the medical unit without prior approval. Similar complaints have been made about many detention centers, spurring the Obama administration to order a review of the system.

According to the jail’s internal investigation, Mr. Ahmad walked into the medical unit shortly after 3:50 p.m. on Sept. 9 and “was seen immediately.” But the letter scrawled by a fellow inmate contended that before he showed up there, Mr. Ahmad’s pleas for treatment had been rebuffed by a guard for an hour.

Complaints about his death were filed with the Department of Homeland Security’s inspector general, documents show; the matter was passed for internal inquiry to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, with the notation that it need not report back its findings.

By 2007, when the immigration agency compiled its first list of deaths in immigration detention, under pressure from Congress and the news media, Mr. Ahmad’s death was not on it.

Yet if his death was not counted, his arrest was — it had been added to the agency’s anti-terrorism statistics, according to government documents showing he was termed a “collateral” apprehension in Operation Secure Commute, raids seeking visa violators after the London transit bombings.

How his children will remember him is another matter. Without the money Mr. Ahmad used to send, they had to move in with relatives far from his grave in Pakistan. But his 10-year-old son clings to a souvenir, the widow said: “He keeps his father’s photograph in his pocket.”

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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

No, he is perfectly right in posting in this thread. You made the claim that America changed. eots is attempting to explain how and what allowed these changes to be implemented.

I might want to edit? ( My understanding is they lied to get visas or misrepresented themselves, but no matter) No, actually, if they were here legally, then doesn't say anything positive for the immigration system at all. Don't you think? We let people in that would destroy us legal. Is that correct?

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I don't monkey around. I am a PC.

It's my understanding they were here legally. One of the hijackers was being hunted by the FBI and was pulled over for speeding in Maryland. Because the agencies couldn't communicate, well you know the rest of the story.

Bfrgn: I read the original post, but thanks for breaking it down for me. Read post 20 again. That was my reply. I have a good feeling for what an insensitive person you are. I may be just as big a jerk, but I don't hide behind pretenses. I live with illegal aliens, and I don't like people condescending to me about this issue any more than I like illegal aliens. Really.

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I don't monkey around. I am a PC.

Sir, that would be QUITE the accomplishment.

From all indications Tanveer Ahmad was a good human being; a person that cared about others, caused no harm to anyone and even defended America... BUT, he was a different color and from a different country, so in your opinion, he got what he deserved...BUT, I'm insensitive...

I sure hope the native Americans have more tolerance that you silver, otherwise YOU might need to find a new country...you are just a squatter on their land...


"I have a dream that one day my four little children will live in a nation where they are not judged my the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Martin Luther King Jr.

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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

'OK Hannity. Best.Most in debt. Most polluting and violent.Highest level of substance abuse and divorce.
Lotsa first places to be proud of.'

If loving my country makes me a 'Hannity', I wear by label proudly. The highest level of substance abuse? By whose stats? Not only do we import poverty, but ALSO drug abusers! Highes level of divorce? Only because this country gives us the freedom to do so. Extend ALL the freedoms you and I enjoy in this country and you will see those stats change so fast it will make your head swim.

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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"
Thomas Jefferson

where do you get that idea? and on what do you base your definition of "civilized"?... you know, given that there are countries won't extradite death penalty cases to us because they think the government putting people to death is barbaric...

Do you people live in a gilded cage??? Yes! CIVILIZED! And do you know that those countries have so much crime that they are in chaos as I write this and as YOU read it? Do you know how many crimes are committed in those countries and they NEVER bother to bring the criminals to justice? Where do YOU get YOUR idea?

and most other nations provide health care for their citizens...

And proceed to let those who are OLD - DIE! And when and if the test that might save your life to too expensive to give, they will send you home with a pill. Do your homework!

and if any other nation held an American for no reason and allowed them to die during their incarceration, you'd be screaming your little head off...

Probably not.....as this is happening now in some country somewhere on this planet and nobody is doing anything about it! And when this American dies, YOU little lady, will never know about it!

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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"
Thomas Jefferson