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If Jefferson founded the Republican Party what place do Democrats have in America?

This is a discussion on If Jefferson founded the Republican Party what place do Democrats have in America? within the History forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by code1211 Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte Quote: Originally Posted by regent The central government was a threat to liberals and Jefferson ...


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Old 02-22-2012, 08:02 PM
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regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet
Quote: Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by regent View Post
The central government was a threat to liberals and Jefferson feared governments based on their history of governments of that period,
of course that is 100% absurd, Jefferson looked at all of history and gave us freedom from all central governments regardless of period


Quote: Originally Posted by regent View Post
but when Jefferson and his party became the government, government seemed less of a threat. The size of government was never part of the core values of liberals,
here are 50 Jefferson quote to prove you are 100% wrong:

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."

"The path we have to pursue[when Jefferson was President ] is so quiet that we have nothing scarcely to propose to our Legislature."

-The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

-The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

" the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


-A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government.

-Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

-I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

-I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

-My reading of history convinces me that bad government results from too much government.

-Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.

-Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

-The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

-Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

-Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

-Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious
"Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four
pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most
free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual
embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed."
--Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801.

"The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens
free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits."
--Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787.

"[Ours is a] policy of not embarking the public in enterprises
better managed by individuals, and which might occupy as much
of our time as those political duties for which the public functionaries are particularly instituted. Some money could be
lent them [the New Orleans Canal Co.], but only on an assurance that it would be employed so as to secure the public objects."
--Thomas Jefferson to W. C. C. Claiborne, 1808.

"The rights of the people to the exercise and fruits of their own industry can never be protected against the selfishness of rulers
not subject to their control at short periods." --Thomas Jefferson
to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816.

"Our wish is that...[there be] maintained that state of property,
equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry
or that of his fathers." --Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural
Address, 1805.

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to
others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of
association--the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." --Thomas Jefferson: Note
in Tracy's "Political Economy," 1816.

"Private enterprise manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806.

"The merchants will manage [commerce] the better, the more they are left free to manage for themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to Gideon Granger, 1800.


"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface." --Thomas Jefferson to William T. Barry, 1822. ME 15:389


Some] seem to think that [civilization's] advance has brought on too complicated a state of society, and that we should gain in happiness by treading back our steps a little way. I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. I believe it might be much simplified to the relief of those who maintain it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Ludlow, 1824. ME 16:75

The parties of Whig and Tory are those of nature. They exist in all countries, whether called by these names or by those of Aristocrats and Democrats, Cote Droite and Cote Gauche, Ultras and Radicals, Serviles and Liberals. The sickly, weakly, timid man fears the people, and is a Tory by nature. The healthy, strong and bold cherishes them, and is formed a Whig by nature." --Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:492

"Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:337

"The power given to Congress by the Constitution does not extend to the internal regulation of the commerce of a State (that is to say, of the commerce between citizen and citizen) which remain exclusively with its own legislature, but to its external commerce only; that is to say, its commerce with another State, or with foreign nations, or with the Indian tribes." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Bank, 1791. ME 3:147

"Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money. ." - Thomas Jefferson


"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."

-- Thomas Paine


When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."
-Thomas paine

"If the government robs Peter to pay Paul, it can always count on the support of Paul." [in America to bottom 45% pay no Federal taxes]
-Winston Churchhill

"The government of the United States [federal government] is a definite government confined to specified objects [powers]. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. CHARITY IS NO PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE DUTY OF THE GOVERNMENT."
-James madison
Jefferson: "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."


Patrick Henry
Tell me when did liberty ever exist when the sword and the purse were given up?

Thomas Jefferson
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."



I see,... and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that, too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power... It is but too evident that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1825. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson


James Madison: "If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions."

James Madison: "The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specific objectives. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."

James Madison in Federalist paper NO. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."




I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." - Benjamin Franklin

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
-Benjamin Franklin

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of the society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Livingston, March 25, 1825
Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, September 7, 1803


That these are our grievances which we have thus laid before his majesty, with that freedom of language and sentiment which becomes a free people claiming their rights as derived from the laws of nature, andnot as the gift of their chief magistrate.

Thomas Jefferson, Rights of British America,
1774

The Constitution... is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary which they may twist and shape into any form they please.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Judge Spencer Roane, September 6, 1819


The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816

They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please...Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.

Thomas Jefferson, Opinion on National Bank, 1791


Okay libs. Cite the Jefferson quotes that illustrate the Communist stance taken by the Democrat Party of today.
<<<<<
Quoting Jefferson proves nothing regarding the core values of liberalism. Jefferson was a liberal and during his time, governments were entititys that took away one of those core values, freedom. If you read the Declaration of Independence you will see Jefferson express some of those core values of liberalism and his concept of government. At least reading the Declaration is a start. Incidently Jefferson never wrote letters to the editor regarding the new Constitution, he was in France.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2012, 08:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by regent View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte View Post

of course that is 100% absurd, Jefferson looked at all of history and gave us freedom from all central governments regardless of period




here are 50 Jefferson quote to prove you are 100% wrong:

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."

"The path we have to pursue[when Jefferson was President ] is so quiet that we have nothing scarcely to propose to our Legislature."

-The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

-The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

" the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


-A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government.

-Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

-I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

-I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

-My reading of history convinces me that bad government results from too much government.

-Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.

-Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

-The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

-Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

-Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

-Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious
"Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four
pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most
free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual
embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed."
--Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801.

"The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens
free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits."
--Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787.

"[Ours is a] policy of not embarking the public in enterprises
better managed by individuals, and which might occupy as much
of our time as those political duties for which the public functionaries are particularly instituted. Some money could be
lent them [the New Orleans Canal Co.], but only on an assurance that it would be employed so as to secure the public objects."
--Thomas Jefferson to W. C. C. Claiborne, 1808.

"The rights of the people to the exercise and fruits of their own industry can never be protected against the selfishness of rulers
not subject to their control at short periods." --Thomas Jefferson
to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816.

"Our wish is that...[there be] maintained that state of property,
equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry
or that of his fathers." --Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural
Address, 1805.

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to
others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of
association--the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." --Thomas Jefferson: Note
in Tracy's "Political Economy," 1816.

"Private enterprise manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806.

"The merchants will manage [commerce] the better, the more they are left free to manage for themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to Gideon Granger, 1800.


"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface." --Thomas Jefferson to William T. Barry, 1822. ME 15:389


Some] seem to think that [civilization's] advance has brought on too complicated a state of society, and that we should gain in happiness by treading back our steps a little way. I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. I believe it might be much simplified to the relief of those who maintain it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Ludlow, 1824. ME 16:75

The parties of Whig and Tory are those of nature. They exist in all countries, whether called by these names or by those of Aristocrats and Democrats, Cote Droite and Cote Gauche, Ultras and Radicals, Serviles and Liberals. The sickly, weakly, timid man fears the people, and is a Tory by nature. The healthy, strong and bold cherishes them, and is formed a Whig by nature." --Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:492

"Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise. Protection from casual embarrassments, however, may sometimes be seasonably interposed." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:337

"The power given to Congress by the Constitution does not extend to the internal regulation of the commerce of a State (that is to say, of the commerce between citizen and citizen) which remain exclusively with its own legislature, but to its external commerce only; that is to say, its commerce with another State, or with foreign nations, or with the Indian tribes." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Bank, 1791. ME 3:147

"Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money. ." - Thomas Jefferson


"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."

-- Thomas Paine


When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."
-Thomas paine

"If the government robs Peter to pay Paul, it can always count on the support of Paul." [in America to bottom 45% pay no Federal taxes]
-Winston Churchhill

"The government of the United States [federal government] is a definite government confined to specified objects [powers]. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. CHARITY IS NO PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE DUTY OF THE GOVERNMENT."
-James madison
Jefferson: "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."


Patrick Henry
Tell me when did liberty ever exist when the sword and the purse were given up?

Thomas Jefferson
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."



I see,... and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that, too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power... It is but too evident that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1825. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson


James Madison: "If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions."

James Madison: "The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specific objectives. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."

James Madison in Federalist paper NO. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."




I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." - Benjamin Franklin

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
-Benjamin Franklin

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of the society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Livingston, March 25, 1825
Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, September 7, 1803


That these are our grievances which we have thus laid before his majesty, with that freedom of language and sentiment which becomes a free people claiming their rights as derived from the laws of nature, andnot as the gift of their chief magistrate.

Thomas Jefferson, Rights of British America,
1774

The Constitution... is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary which they may twist and shape into any form they please.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Judge Spencer Roane, September 6, 1819


The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816

They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please...Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.

Thomas Jefferson, Opinion on National Bank, 1791


Okay libs. Cite the Jefferson quotes that illustrate the Communist stance taken by the Democrat Party of today.
<<<<<
Quoting Jefferson proves nothing regarding the core values of liberalism. Jefferson was a liberal and during his time, governments were entititys that took away one of those core values, freedom. If you read the Declaration of Independence you will see Jefferson express some of those core values of liberalism and his concept of government. At least reading the Declaration is a start. Incidently Jefferson never wrote letters to the editor regarding the new Constitution, he was in France.
Agreed, except that it wasn't just during Jefferson's time that governments took away freedom. The entire concept of government is the restriction of individual freedom.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:29 PM
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regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet regent is faster than a speeding bullet
Restriction of individual freedom may or may not be the role of government, depends on the government. America has lost a lot of individual freedom since 1789 but when you consider the US has gone from a population of five million or so to three hundred million and we have changed from an agriculture nation to a manufacturing nation with the cities and jobs and so on....
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EdwardBaiamonte View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post
It depends on which Republican party you're talking about. The current GOP doesn't trace it's lineage back to the Democratic-Republican party
of course thats absurd since they have the same name and philosophy. In fact, Greely named lincoln's Party Republican because of name and philosophy. What more do you want?



Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post

and you can probably find that if you read further down that Wiki article. The current Republican party was formed in the 1860's.
yes to revive the name and philosophy of Jefferson's Party. Is it making sense now?
By lineage I mean actual lineage. I share most of Jefferson's ideals, but I can't rightly say that he was my ancestor when my mom's Hawaiian Chinese and my dad's Scotch Irish. Even if they had named me Thomas with J as my middle initial, the guy wouldn't suddenly cameo on my family tree.

The GOP isn't the same party as the Democratic-Republicans because they're not the same party as the Democratic-Republicans. Jefferson's Republicans fractured somewhere in the early 1800's, and one of the fragments actually evolved into what is today called the Democratic party, which is why that party -can- claim -actual- lineage back to Jefferson's Republicans. My grandfather, on my mother's side, was a wife beater, an abusive father, a thug involved in organized crime. . . many things to which I am diametrically opposed. These differences in philosophy don't remove him from my family tree. My mother still sprung forth from his loin, and thus I am still a product thereof. The current Democrats might disagree in rhetoric and legislation with Jefferson's core principles, but their party still sprung forth from the loin of his, so to speak.
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Last edited by Not2BSubjugated; 02-22-2012 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by regent View Post
Restriction of individual freedom may or may not be the role of government, depends on the government. America has lost a lot of individual freedom since 1789 but when you consider the US has gone from a population of five million or so to three hundred million and we have changed from an agriculture nation to a manufacturing nation with the cities and jobs and so on....
There's no may or may not about it. The basic scope of any government is the enforcement of societies laws. Laws, by nature, are limits to what you're allowed to do, i.e. limits to individual freedom. Therefore the basic scope of any government is the enforcement of limits to individual freedom.

These limits may seem basic. Don't kill each other, for instance. They're still limits.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:45 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by regent View Post
Restriction of individual freedom may or may not be the role of government, depends on the government. America has lost a lot of individual freedom since 1789 but when you consider the US has gone from a population of five million or so to three hundred million and we have changed from an agriculture nation to a manufacturing nation with the cities and jobs and so on....
America has gained a lot of individual freedom since 1789. In 1789 over half the population could not vote. The rights of the Constitution were not applied to women, blacks or Indians. We have more freedom of speech, more freedom of the press more freedom of association
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:53 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Peach View Post
*FINDING. FDR kept this country together when Communism and Fascism were genuine threats.

kept it together by prolonging the Depression for 10 years that caused WW 2? If BO prolongs this recession for 10 years will he be your hero too?
The Depression didn't cause WWII. And it wasn't "prolonged" by FDR's policies. You may want to study history a bit. The disparity in wealth was leading to a rise in populist movements in this country..like Communists and Fascists. This place was ripe for a revolution. FDR tamped down those angry voices by implementing social programs in a package called "The New Deal". The economic calamity faced in this country was caused by Laissez-faire capitalism..and it was a tough slog getting out of it.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by regent View Post
Restriction of individual freedom may or may not be the role of government, depends on the government. America has lost a lot of individual freedom since 1789 but when you consider the US has gone from a population of five million or so to three hundred million and we have changed from an agriculture nation to a manufacturing nation with the cities and jobs and so on....
There's no may or may not about it. The basic scope of any government is the enforcement of societies laws. Laws, by nature, are limits to what you're allowed to do, i.e. limits to individual freedom. Therefore the basic scope of any government is the enforcement of limits to individual freedom.

These limits may seem basic. Don't kill each other, for instance. They're still limits.
Another way of looking at it if government keeps people from killing one another, that meams the government gave them theedom to live. So why do we have govenments?
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:47 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post
There's no may or may not about it. The basic scope of any government is the enforcement of societies laws. Laws, by nature, are limits to what you're allowed to do, i.e. limits to individual freedom. Therefore the basic scope of any government is the enforcement of limits to individual freedom.
Well, actually your final sentence doesn't follow from the rest, all of which is true. Let's say you're living in a village with a man who has so much personal power (through intelligence, charisma, fighting ability, followers, whatever) that he can force others to do what he wants to, or torture or kill them if they don't. A law might be in place that requires him not to torture or kill anyone, or to have them tortured or killed by his followers. While this law would certainly restrict HIS freedom, how can you say that it would restrict YOURS? Would it not, instead, protect you from being coerced by this guy, and thus INCREASE your freedom?

This is the reasoning behind having a government to protect our rights and liberties, and why there is a distinction between liberals (who distrust government but recognize its necessity) and anarchists (who distrust government and do not see its necessity).
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:52 AM
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Regarding Thomas Jefferson's liberalism, here is a quote (at length) which I like to present illustrating what he really believed. It's from a letter he wrote from France to a certain Rev. James Madison, not to be confused with James Madison the politician, who was a different person.

Quote: Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
As soon as I had got clear of the town I fell in with a poor woman walking at the same rate with myself and going the same course. Wishing to know the condition of the laboring poor I entered into conversation with her, which I began by enquiries for the path which would lead me into the mountain: and thence proceeded to enquiries into her vocation, condition and circumstances. She told me she was a day laborer at 8 sous or 4d. sterling the day: that she had two children to maintain, and to pay a rent of 30 livres for her house (which would consume the hire of 75 days), that often she could no employment and of course was without bread. As we had walked together near a mile and she had so far served me as a guide, I gave her, on parting, 24 sous. She burst into tears of a gratitude which I could perceive was unfeigned because she was unable to utter a word. She had probably never before received so great an aid. This little attendrissement, with the solitude of my walk, led me into a train of reflections on that unequal division of property which occasions the numberless instances of wretchedness which I had observed in this country and is to be observed all over Europe.

The property of this country is absolutely concentred in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards. These employ the flower of the country as servants, some of them having as many as 200 domestics, not laboring. They employ also a great number of manufacturers and tradesmen, and lastly the class of laboring husbandmen. But after all there comes the most numerous of all classes, that is, the poor who cannot find work. I asked myself what could be the reason so many should be permitted to beg who are willing to work, in a country where there is a very considerable proportion of uncultivated lands? These lands are undisturbed only for the sake of game. It should seem then that it must be because of the enormous wealth of the proprietors which places them above attention to the increase of their revenues by permitting these lands to be labored. I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable, but the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree, is a politic measure and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation. If we do not, the fundamental right to labor the earth returns to the unemployed. It is too soon yet in our country to say that every man who cannot find employment, but who can find uncultivated land, shall be at liberty to cultivate it, paying a moderate rent. But it is not too soon to provide by every possible means that as few as possible shall be without a little portion of land. The small landholders are the most precious part of a state.
Here we see Jefferson clearly articulating a core liberal position in the context of an agrarian economy, which requires a different approach than is appropriate for an industrial economy. Nevertheless, the core value is the same: inequality is bad. Inequality threatens liberty. That's true whether the inequality is of political power or, as in this case, of wealth.

Jefferson saw massive inequality of wealth (which for him meant land ownership) in Europe, and he saw its dire effects. His thought was of how to prevent the same thing occurring in America. He was quite prepared to use government to prevent or cure the problem if needed, including a progressive property tax and laws to require breaking up large estates.

In an industrial economy such as we have today, wealth takes different forms, but otherwise the same problem remains, and the attitudes of liberals are unchanged. Only the means differ.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Regarding Thomas Jefferson's liberalism, here is a quote (at length) which I like to present illustrating what he really believed. It's from a letter he wrote from France to a certain Rev. James Madison, not to be confused with James Madison the politician, who was a different person.

Quote: Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
As soon as I had got clear of the town I fell in with a poor woman walking at the same rate with myself and going the same course. Wishing to know the condition of the laboring poor I entered into conversation with her, which I began by enquiries for the path which would lead me into the mountain: and thence proceeded to enquiries into her vocation, condition and circumstances. She told me she was a day laborer at 8 sous or 4d. sterling the day: that she had two children to maintain, and to pay a rent of 30 livres for her house (which would consume the hire of 75 days), that often she could no employment and of course was without bread. As we had walked together near a mile and she had so far served me as a guide, I gave her, on parting, 24 sous. She burst into tears of a gratitude which I could perceive was unfeigned because she was unable to utter a word. She had probably never before received so great an aid. This little attendrissement, with the solitude of my walk, led me into a train of reflections on that unequal division of property which occasions the numberless instances of wretchedness which I had observed in this country and is to be observed all over Europe.

The property of this country is absolutely concentred in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards. These employ the flower of the country as servants, some of them having as many as 200 domestics, not laboring. They employ also a great number of manufacturers and tradesmen, and lastly the class of laboring husbandmen. But after all there comes the most numerous of all classes, that is, the poor who cannot find work. I asked myself what could be the reason so many should be permitted to beg who are willing to work, in a country where there is a very considerable proportion of uncultivated lands? These lands are undisturbed only for the sake of game. It should seem then that it must be because of the enormous wealth of the proprietors which places them above attention to the increase of their revenues by permitting these lands to be labored. I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable, but the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree, is a politic measure and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation. If we do not, the fundamental right to labor the earth returns to the unemployed. It is too soon yet in our country to say that every man who cannot find employment, but who can find uncultivated land, shall be at liberty to cultivate it, paying a moderate rent. But it is not too soon to provide by every possible means that as few as possible shall be without a little portion of land. The small landholders are the most precious part of a state.
Here we see Jefferson clearly articulating a core liberal position in the context of an agrarian economy, which requires a different approach than is appropriate for an industrial economy. Nevertheless, the core value is the same: inequality is bad. Inequality threatens liberty. That's true whether the inequality is of political power or, as in this case, of wealth.

Jefferson saw massive inequality of wealth (which for him meant land ownership) in Europe, and he saw its dire effects. His thought was of how to prevent the same thing occurring in America. He was quite prepared to use government to prevent or cure the problem if needed, including a progressive property tax and laws to require breaking up large estates.

In an industrial economy such as we have today, wealth takes different forms, but otherwise the same problem remains, and the attitudes of liberals are unchanged. Only the means differ.
In the Declaration of Independence, (Jefferson) changed "life liberty and property" to life liberty and pursuit of happiness. Why the change? The change is supposed to be because Jefferson already saw the beginnings of corporations and their use of power. Of course, Jefferson had envisioned America as a sea of small farms and America as an agriculture nation, each owning his own farm. Now corporations were emerging and property meant corporate ownership and a different America. And you are correct, the core values of liberalism are the same as brought forth in the Age of Enlightenment and Age of Reason.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post
There's no may or may not about it. The basic scope of any government is the enforcement of societies laws. Laws, by nature, are limits to what you're allowed to do, i.e. limits to individual freedom. Therefore the basic scope of any government is the enforcement of limits to individual freedom.
Well, actually your final sentence doesn't follow from the rest, all of which is true. Let's say you're living in a village with a man who has so much personal power (through intelligence, charisma, fighting ability, followers, whatever) that he can force others to do what he wants to, or torture or kill them if they don't. A law might be in place that requires him not to torture or kill anyone, or to have them tortured or killed by his followers. While this law would certainly restrict HIS freedom, how can you say that it would restrict YOURS? Would it not, instead, protect you from being coerced by this guy, and thus INCREASE your freedom?

This is the reasoning behind having a government to protect our rights and liberties, and why there is a distinction between liberals (who distrust government but recognize its necessity) and anarchists (who distrust government and do not see its necessity).
I certainly agree that many laws only serve to benefit many people who had no ability or desire to commit the acts that those laws identify as criminal. Your village example, however, doesn't contradict what I've said, which I still feel logically follows my premise to a T. Even if the law only serves to limit the individual rights of one man in the village because, for the sake of the argument, he's the only one capable of the force required to break the law, the law is still a limit to individual freedom and the government's scope is still to enforce that limit.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post

I certainly agree that many laws only serve to benefit many people who had no ability or desire to commit the acts that those laws identify as criminal. Your village example, however, doesn't contradict what I've said, which I still feel logically follows my premise to a T. Even if the law only serves to limit the individual rights of one man in the village because, for the sake of the argument, he's the only one capable of the force required to break the law, the law is still a limit to individual freedom and the government's scope is still to enforce that limit.
Let me make what I said a little clearer. It's not just that most people have no desire to do what the hypothetical petty tyrant would do, and therefore the law doesn't affect them. It's that most people are victims of the petty tyrant, their liberty is reduced by his activities, and therefore the law, by restraining him from these activities, augments the freedom of most of the people in the village.

Which is, to a liberal, the whole point of law.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post
By lineage I mean actual lineage.
When it comes to political parties you cant be much more actual than name and philosophy. Jefferson's Party never disappeared it just split apart only to be reformed in 1865

Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post

I share most of Jefferson's ideals, but I can't rightly say that he was my ancestor when my mom's Hawaiian Chinese and my dad's Scotch Irish. Even if they had named me Thomas with J as my middle initial, the guy wouldn't suddenly cameo on my family tree.
actually people are not political parties you are comparing apples and oranges


Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post

The GOP isn't the same party as the Democratic-Republicans because they're not the same party as the Democratic-Republicans.
the philosophy is the same so in that very very important sense they are the same


Quote: Originally Posted by Not2BSubjugated View Post

Jefferson's Republicans fractured somewhere in the early 1800's, and one of the fragments actually evolved into what is today called the Democratic party, which is why that party -can- claim -actual- lineage back to Jefferson's Republicans.
they can claim it just not in terms of name and philosophy,... which are somewhat important, one might say. Of course it hugely dishonest to attach themselves to America's founding that way.

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Old 02-23-2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Dragon View Post

Nevertheless, the core value is the same: inequality is bad.
.
that of course is idiotic, liberal, and out of context.

"Our wish is that...[there be] maintained that state of property,
equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry
or that of his fathers." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson loved inequality, just not the kind caused by strong liberal central government or monarchy. That is why he formed the Republican Party. That why his entire political life was devoted to reducing central government, not violent liberal property redistribution.
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