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This is a discussion on What is the first thing you think of when you look at this? within the History forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 Never said Maggie did or said anything. So ...


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  #181 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 06:49 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post

Never said Maggie did or said anything.

So you admit you were talking out of your ass.

Good, you're making progress.

You've any evidence I didn't know what the flag was?



Like Andersonville? Like Dresden? Can you name everyone ever slain during a Cherokee attack?

You're projecting again.



You base this assumption on what, exactly?
Quote:

We were here when you got here, and we'll be here when you're gone
Who is 'we'? Who is 'you'?
Holy shit, you like to listen to yourself talk. don't you?

"We" are the Cherokee (yes, I am Cherokee).

"You" are they who came to our land and took it from us, then act as if God put you here and you invented it or something, as if it didn't exist until you got off the boats.

Ever heard of Tsali? I am a direct descendant, so yeah, I know "a few" who died.

Look up Horseshoe Bend. That is when and where my family made a stand to what remains ours now, and where they made their way.

Those who weren't slaughtered, that is.

As I said, rock on. We'll still be here when you're finished with yourselves.
I went through HS with 2 Cherokee twins. Tried to date their sister but she wouldn't date any of her brothers friends. Wished i could find those guys today, just to see how they're doing. Haven't seen them since 71.
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  #182 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 06:54 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
My point is, there is no "we" and there is no "you" there is just "us".


Quote:

Then of course, there is the question of who was here first? The so called "native Americans"? The Vikings? The Japanese or Chinese? Who the heck cares at this point? We are all here now so it's better to work together to make things right than to separate ourselves based on our ancestors.
Write history however it makes you feel good. As I said, I don't care. I know the history (so do you, you just don't want to own it).

I've always found it comical (literally) how Americans don't want to even acknowledge how they came to control "America", yet have killed millions of people around the world, including some of their own, for doing the very same thing they claim as righteous and just in establishing their own country and society.

Hypocritical, comical, and our true and naked legacy.

And we are doomed to repeat it.

"Full circle" (an Indian concept) for sure.
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  #183 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:05 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
My point is, there is no "we" and there is no "you" there is just "us".


Quote:

Then of course, there is the question of who was here first? The so called "native Americans"? The Vikings? The Japanese or Chinese? Who the heck cares at this point? We are all here now so it's better to work together to make things right than to separate ourselves based on our ancestors.
Write history however it makes you feel good. As I said, I don't care. I know the history (so do you, you just don't want to own it).

I've always found it comical (literally) how Americans don't want to even acknowledge how they came to control "America", yet have killed millions of people around the world, including some of their own, for doing the very same thing they claim as righteous and just in establishing their own country and society.

Hypocritical, comical, and our true and naked legacy.

And we are doomed to repeat it.

"Full circle" (an Indian concept) for sure.
I'm not writing history, I'm talking about NOW. I never killed any Cherokee, have you killed any "whites?" Why can't you understand that in spite of our history, or maybe because of it, we need to stand together NOW!
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  #184 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
My point is, there is no "we" and there is no "you" there is just "us".


Quote:

Then of course, there is the question of who was here first? The so called "native Americans"? The Vikings? The Japanese or Chinese? Who the heck cares at this point? We are all here now so it's better to work together to make things right than to separate ourselves based on our ancestors.
Write history however it makes you feel good. As I said, I don't care. I know the history (so do you, you just don't want to own it).

I've always found it comical (literally) how Americans don't want to even acknowledge how they came to control "America", yet have killed millions of people around the world, including some of their own, for doing the very same thing they claim as righteous and just in establishing their own country and society.

Hypocritical, comical, and our true and naked legacy.

And we are doomed to repeat it.

"Full circle" (an Indian concept) for sure.
What the blazes are you babbling about?

Try reading my posts around this forum.

My willingness to condemn America for its actions have made me a darling of the Right, I assure.
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  #185 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema View Post


So you admit you were talking out of your ass.

Good, you're making progress.

You've any evidence I didn't know what the flag was?



Like Andersonville? Like Dresden? Can you name everyone ever slain during a Cherokee attack?

You're projecting again.



You base this assumption on what, exactly?

Who is 'we'? Who is 'you'?
Holy shit, you like to listen to yourself talk. don't you?

"We" are the Cherokee (yes, I am Cherokee).

"You" are they who came to our land and took it from us, then act as if God put you here and you invented it or something, as if it didn't exist until you got off the boats.

Ever heard of Tsali? I am a direct descendant, so yeah, I know "a few" who died.

Look up Horseshoe Bend. That is when and where my family made a stand to what remains ours now, and where they made their way.

Those who weren't slaughtered, that is.

As I said, rock on. We'll still be here when you're finished with yourselves.
No offense, but this was not "America" until the Europeans came over here and made it "America". They may have taken land away from the Indians but if they hadn't, my guess is the Indians would still be living in their teepees or grass huts, etc. Or maybe they would have died out as most of them were nomads who moved from place to place as they used up all the resources available. Think "Easter Island".

Also, I don't know very many Caucasians who don't claim to have at least some Cherokee blood. My husband is 1/32 Cherokee. In my family we're just mutts. We believe we either have some Indian blood or some black blood as my Grandmother was kind of dark and my Grandfather was disowned when he married her and never saw his family again until after her death.

My point is, there is no "we" and there is no "you" there is just "us". At this point, we are all Americans, if you have a problem with that, I'm sorry but it's too late. I think that we are all better off for the Europeans being here and making this into a major International Power.

Then of course, there is the question of who was here first? The so called "native Americans"? The Vikings? The Japanese or Chinese? Who the heck cares at this point? We are all here now so it's better to work together to make things right than to separate ourselves based on our ancestors.
Hey stupid........you DO realize that the buffalo were plentiful up until the white man moved west, right? I'm from Montana and know of which I speak.

As far as living in teepees? Guess what, the Indians were very practical and efficient people who were probably more civilized than the Europeans that came over here and used bio-warfare on the Native Americans in the form of smallpox infected blankets.

Considering that the Native Americans were healthier, as well as better adjusted to life than the Europeans, I'd be willing to bet that Europe colonizing this country was the start of something bad...........unless of course, you think genocide is a good thing.

As far as being all of us Americans? Yeah, sort of, but it's always good to remember who was here first.

Try again chumpsteak.
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  #186 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:11 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema View Post




Write history however it makes you feel good. As I said, I don't care. I know the history (so do you, you just don't want to own it).

I've always found it comical (literally) how Americans don't want to even acknowledge how they came to control "America", yet have killed millions of people around the world, including some of their own, for doing the very same thing they claim as righteous and just in establishing their own country and society.

Hypocritical, comical, and our true and naked legacy.

And we are doomed to repeat it.

"Full circle" (an Indian concept) for sure.
I'm not writing history, I'm talking about NOW. I never killed any Cherokee, have you killed any "whites?" Why can't you understand that in spite of our history, or maybe because of it, we need to stand together NOW!
Look at how the Irish and the Chinese were received.

Yet they've moved on.

We can't change the past. We can only go on from here and make the best of what we've inherited so we give the next generation something better.
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  #187 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:13 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ABikerSailor View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post

Holy shit, you like to listen to yourself talk. don't you?

"We" are the Cherokee (yes, I am Cherokee).

"You" are they who came to our land and took it from us, then act as if God put you here and you invented it or something, as if it didn't exist until you got off the boats.

Ever heard of Tsali? I am a direct descendant, so yeah, I know "a few" who died.

Look up Horseshoe Bend. That is when and where my family made a stand to what remains ours now, and where they made their way.

Those who weren't slaughtered, that is.

As I said, rock on. We'll still be here when you're finished with yourselves.
No offense, but this was not "America" until the Europeans came over here and made it "America". They may have taken land away from the Indians but if they hadn't, my guess is the Indians would still be living in their teepees or grass huts, etc. Or maybe they would have died out as most of them were nomads who moved from place to place as they used up all the resources available. Think "Easter Island".

Also, I don't know very many Caucasians who don't claim to have at least some Cherokee blood. My husband is 1/32 Cherokee. In my family we're just mutts. We believe we either have some Indian blood or some black blood as my Grandmother was kind of dark and my Grandfather was disowned when he married her and never saw his family again until after her death.

My point is, there is no "we" and there is no "you" there is just "us". At this point, we are all Americans, if you have a problem with that, I'm sorry but it's too late. I think that we are all better off for the Europeans being here and making this into a major International Power.

Then of course, there is the question of who was here first? The so called "native Americans"? The Vikings? The Japanese or Chinese? Who the heck cares at this point? We are all here now so it's better to work together to make things right than to separate ourselves based on our ancestors.
Hey stupid........you DO realize that the buffalo were plentiful up until the white man moved west, right? I'm from Montana and know of which I speak.

As far as living in teepees? Guess what, the Indians were very practical and efficient people who were probably more civilized than the Europeans that came over here and used bio-warfare on the Native Americans in the form of smallpox infected blankets.

Considering that the Native Americans were healthier, as well as better adjusted to life than the Europeans, I'd be willing to bet that Europe colonizing this country was the start of something bad...........unless of course, you think genocide is a good thing.

As far as being all of us Americans? Yeah, sort of, but it's always good to remember who was here first.

Try again chumpsteak.
stupid? chumpsteak? I've already won and I didn't even really try.
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  #188 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:15 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeukema View Post




Write history however it makes you feel good. As I said, I don't care. I know the history (so do you, you just don't want to own it).

I've always found it comical (literally) how Americans don't want to even acknowledge how they came to control "America", yet have killed millions of people around the world, including some of their own, for doing the very same thing they claim as righteous and just in establishing their own country and society.

Hypocritical, comical, and our true and naked legacy.

And we are doomed to repeat it.

"Full circle" (an Indian concept) for sure.
I'm not writing history, I'm talking about NOW. I never killed any Cherokee, have you killed any "whites?" Why can't you understand that in spite of our history, or maybe because of it, we need to stand together NOW!
And yet this thread (as expected) has been nothing but a bashing of Southerners for something that happened 135 years ago.

Is that "now?"
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  #189 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ABikerSailor View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post

Holy shit, you like to listen to yourself talk. don't you?

"We" are the Cherokee (yes, I am Cherokee).

"You" are they who came to our land and took it from us, then act as if God put you here and you invented it or something, as if it didn't exist until you got off the boats.

Ever heard of Tsali? I am a direct descendant, so yeah, I know "a few" who died.

Look up Horseshoe Bend. That is when and where my family made a stand to what remains ours now, and where they made their way.

Those who weren't slaughtered, that is.

As I said, rock on. We'll still be here when you're finished with yourselves.
No offense, but this was not "America" until the Europeans came over here and made it "America". They may have taken land away from the Indians but if they hadn't, my guess is the Indians would still be living in their teepees or grass huts, etc. Or maybe they would have died out as most of them were nomads who moved from place to place as they used up all the resources available. Think "Easter Island".

Also, I don't know very many Caucasians who don't claim to have at least some Cherokee blood. My husband is 1/32 Cherokee. In my family we're just mutts. We believe we either have some Indian blood or some black blood as my Grandmother was kind of dark and my Grandfather was disowned when he married her and never saw his family again until after her death.

My point is, there is no "we" and there is no "you" there is just "us". At this point, we are all Americans, if you have a problem with that, I'm sorry but it's too late. I think that we are all better off for the Europeans being here and making this into a major International Power.

Then of course, there is the question of who was here first? The so called "native Americans"? The Vikings? The Japanese or Chinese? Who the heck cares at this point? We are all here now so it's better to work together to make things right than to separate ourselves based on our ancestors.
Hey stupid........you DO realize that the buffalo were plentiful up until the white man moved west, right? I'm from Montana and know of which I speak.

As far as living in teepees? Guess what, the Indians were very practical and efficient people who were probably more civilized than the Europeans that came over here and used bio-warfare on the Native Americans in the form of smallpox infected blankets.

Considering that the Native Americans were healthier, as well as better adjusted to life than the Europeans, I'd be willing to bet that Europe colonizing this country was the start of something bad...........unless of course, you think genocide is a good thing.

As far as being all of us Americans? Yeah, sort of, but it's always good to remember who was here first.

Try again chumpsteak.
I think we would have been just fine
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  #190 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:18 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Againsheila View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post

Write history however it makes you feel good. As I said, I don't care. I know the history (so do you, you just don't want to own it).

I've always found it comical (literally) how Americans don't want to even acknowledge how they came to control "America", yet have killed millions of people around the world, including some of their own, for doing the very same thing they claim as righteous and just in establishing their own country and society.

Hypocritical, comical, and our true and naked legacy.

And we are doomed to repeat it.

"Full circle" (an Indian concept) for sure.
I'm not writing history, I'm talking about NOW. I never killed any Cherokee, have you killed any "whites?" Why can't you understand that in spite of our history, or maybe because of it, we need to stand together NOW!
And yet this thread (as expected) has been nothing but a bashing of Southerners for something that happened 135 years ago.

Is that "now?"
Actually, moron, it's been bashing of southerners today who fly the flag today. Primarily, it's been redneck bashing.
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  #191 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:24 PM
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The fact is, none of us can claim complete nobility in our ancestors. Yes many/most of the Native Americans who were here before the first English settlers got a raw deal but that was then and it can't be undone now.. But many Native American tribes were also extremely viscious toward other tribes including making slaves of them from time to time. Again that was then and now is now.

Yes slavery was a terrible thing and you would be hard put to find anyone who would condone it now. But it was commonplace at the time it was happening--sometimes free blacks owned slaves themselves. And it was black tribesmen who captured folks in Africa and brought them out to sell to the white slave traders to deliver to the auctions in Canada, America, Mexico, South America, and throughout the Carribean. Again that was then. This is now.

To those who had no part in racism or who condoned no racist acts of any kind, to those who grew up in the south with its many and commendable traditions and never experienced man's inhumanity to man, to those who have a good grasp of all the history and not just the cherry picked parts--that Confederate flag has a much different meaning than it does to you who have been taught that it means only racism or slavery.

Maybe as Christmas approaches with its traditions of Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men, a little tolerance from all of us would go a long way to begin to move into the here and now where people are not guilty of the historical sins of their ancesters.
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  #192 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:52 PM
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Thank you, Foxfyre.

While JBeukema seems to want to relive it, you seem to understand that it is what it is, that we can't change it, and that it didn't just start in 1776.

Merry Christmas to you and yours, and Tsa la gi u na de ti-yi s gv i (the closest thing to "Merry Christmas you're gonna get in the Cherokee language)
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  #193 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:55 PM
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As Americans, as a united people that we are supposed to be we need to get over this. There are other countries in this world who want to take us over and kill us and that is not a joke. They hate us and call us heathens b/c of the way we live. I don't want to wear a burka and lose the freedom I have known. C'mon y'all, let's get it together. While we're arguiing over a piece of cloth that does not mean a damn thing to God, the one we claim to put FIRST above all else...yeah, right! It seems this flag is FIRST.. to the ones who love it and the ones who hate it!!

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Old 12-22-2010, 09:20 PM
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Molly Hatchet.
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  #195 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2010, 09:46 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mini 14 View Post
Thank you, Foxfyre.

. . . .you seem to understand that it is what it is, that we can't change it, and that it didn't just start in 1776.

Merry Christmas to you and yours, and Tsa la gi u na de ti-yi s gv i (the closest thing to "Merry Christmas you're gonna get in the Cherokee language)
And thank you Mini. Heck, there is stuff that happened today, yesterday, last week, last month, last year, ten years ago, and going back to the beginnings of recorded history that in retrospect we can find reasons to condemn it. But to judge previous generations with all the hindsight we have here and now in the 21st century is to fail to appreciate or at least understand another time and culture. And I'm sure many if not most of all those people way back then would have judged us just as harshly if they looked forward to see the mess we're making of many things now.

So I'm all for learning from honest history and taking advantage of opportunity we have to do it better from right now forward.

Our New Mexico Jicarilla and Mescalero Apaches would say "Gozhqq Keshmish"
Our eastern Comanches would say "Tsaa Nu Sukatu waa Himiru"
Our Navajos would say "Ya'at'eeh keshmish"
Our Hopis have their own words but no written language for them yet. . . .
Folks from our rich Spanish and Mexican traditions here might say "Feliz Navidad"
And we all wish each other Merry Christmas which is what I wish for you and all our USMB friends.
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