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This is a discussion on Affordable Care Act saving taxpayer money at record pace within the Healthcare/Insurance/Govt Healthcare forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by Bfgrn Quote: Originally Posted by Quantum Windbag Quote: Originally Posted by Bfgrn Oh, we agree you deduced? How so? So, you ...
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| Oh, we agree you deduced? How so? So, you want the government to turn health care back over to Wall Street, so stockholders can put their profits before patients, who are STAKEholders in our health care system. The 'market' has/had TOO much control withOUT government regulation and oversight. Now, do we still agree??? Here is an apology by the same CIGNA executive VP. READ IT, and educate yourself. Shed your fucking ignorance. Become a thinking person, not a fucking parrot! Wendell Potter: Rally Against Wall Street's Health Care Takeover I would like to begin by apologizing to all of you for the role I played 15 years ago in cheating you out of a reformed health care system. Had it not been for greedy insurance companies and other special interests, and their army of lobbyists and spin-doctors like I used to be, we wouldn't be here today. I'm ashamed that I let myself get caught up in deceitful and dishonest PR campaigns that worked so well, hundreds of thousands of our citizens have died, and millions of others have lost their homes and been forced into bankruptcy, so that a very few corporate executives and their Wall Street masters could become obscenely rich. But it was only during the last few years of my career that I came to realize the full scope of the harm my colleagues and I had caused, and the lengths that insurance companies will go to increase their profits at the expense of working families. As I told the Senate Commerce Committee two months ago, the higher up the corporate ladder I climbed, the more I could see how insurance companies confuse their customers and dump the sick – all so they can satisfy those Wall Street masters. I described for the senators how insurers make promises they have no intention of keeping, how they flout regulations designed to protect consumers, and how they make it nearly impossible to understand -- or even to obtain -- information consumers need. I also told the Committee how the industry has conducted duplicitous and well-financed PR and lobbying campaigns every time Congress has tried to reform our health care system -- and how its current behind-scenes-efforts may well shape reform in a way that benefits Wall Street far more than average Americans. I noted that, just as the industry did 15 years ago when it led the effort to kill the Clinton reform plan, it is using shills and front groups to spread lies and disinformation to scare Americans away from the very reform that would benefit them most. Make no mistake, the industry, despite its public assurances to be good-faith partners with the President and Congress, has been at work for years laying the groundwork for devious and often sinister campaigns to manipulate public opinion. The industry goes to great lengths to keep its involvement in these campaigns hidden from public view. But I know from having served on many trade group committees that industry leaders are always full partners in developing strategies to derail any reform that might interfere with their ability to increase their companies' profits. In other words, you are the problem because you are one of the idiots that keep saying that the problem is something that does not exist and then you demand that the actual problem step in and fix the problem.
__________________ I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything -- you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him. |
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| [quote=Quantum Windbag;4885958][quote=Star;4881742] Actually, I think you are confusing access to health care with health care. I would rather have a system that allows people to pay for extra coverage they want than one that only gives extra coverage to those the state approves of. One is about freedom, the other is about control. Last edited by LilOlLady; 03-04-2012 at 01:35 PM. |
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| Here is an apology by the same CIGNA executive VP. READ IT, and educate yourself. Shed your fucking ignorance. Become a thinking person, not a fucking parrot! Wendell Potter: Rally Against Wall Street's Health Care Takeover I would like to begin by apologizing to all of you for the role I played 15 years ago in cheating you out of a reformed health care system. Had it not been for greedy insurance companies and other special interests, and their army of lobbyists and spin-doctors like I used to be, we wouldn't be here today. I'm ashamed that I let myself get caught up in deceitful and dishonest PR campaigns that worked so well, hundreds of thousands of our citizens have died, and millions of others have lost their homes and been forced into bankruptcy, so that a very few corporate executives and their Wall Street masters could become obscenely rich. But it was only during the last few years of my career that I came to realize the full scope of the harm my colleagues and I had caused, and the lengths that insurance companies will go to increase their profits at the expense of working families. As I told the Senate Commerce Committee two months ago, the higher up the corporate ladder I climbed, the more I could see how insurance companies confuse their customers and dump the sick – all so they can satisfy those Wall Street masters. I described for the senators how insurers make promises they have no intention of keeping, how they flout regulations designed to protect consumers, and how they make it nearly impossible to understand -- or even to obtain -- information consumers need. I also told the Committee how the industry has conducted duplicitous and well-financed PR and lobbying campaigns every time Congress has tried to reform our health care system -- and how its current behind-scenes-efforts may well shape reform in a way that benefits Wall Street far more than average Americans. I noted that, just as the industry did 15 years ago when it led the effort to kill the Clinton reform plan, it is using shills and front groups to spread lies and disinformation to scare Americans away from the very reform that would benefit them most. Make no mistake, the industry, despite its public assurances to be good-faith partners with the President and Congress, has been at work for years laying the groundwork for devious and often sinister campaigns to manipulate public opinion. The industry goes to great lengths to keep its involvement in these campaigns hidden from public view. But I know from having served on many trade group committees that industry leaders are always full partners in developing strategies to derail any reform that might interfere with their ability to increase their companies' profits. In other words, you are the problem because you are one of the idiots that keep saying that the problem is something that does not exist and then you demand that the actual problem step in and fix the problem. The core of the problem is health care will never fit a 'free market' solution. Anyone with an adult brain who understands the basics of a market based transaction can see that the incentives, stakes and leverage are fatally flawed...LITERALLY.
__________________ The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith |
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| It's because you didn't watch the fucking interview with a 15 year executive with CIGNA who identified WALL STREET. Instead you use idiotic catch phrases like 'crony capitalism' which doesn't apply to the problem. It all has to do with your dogmatic ignorance. You have found 'religion'...you're are a Marketist. No different than a Marxist. Here is an apology by the same CIGNA executive VP. READ IT, and educate yourself. Shed your fucking ignorance. Become a thinking person, not a fucking parrot! Wendell Potter: Rally Against Wall Street's Health Care Takeover I would like to begin by apologizing to all of you for the role I played 15 years ago in cheating you out of a reformed health care system. Had it not been for greedy insurance companies and other special interests, and their army of lobbyists and spin-doctors like I used to be, we wouldn't be here today. I'm ashamed that I let myself get caught up in deceitful and dishonest PR campaigns that worked so well, hundreds of thousands of our citizens have died, and millions of others have lost their homes and been forced into bankruptcy, so that a very few corporate executives and their Wall Street masters could become obscenely rich. But it was only during the last few years of my career that I came to realize the full scope of the harm my colleagues and I had caused, and the lengths that insurance companies will go to increase their profits at the expense of working families. As I told the Senate Commerce Committee two months ago, the higher up the corporate ladder I climbed, the more I could see how insurance companies confuse their customers and dump the sick – all so they can satisfy those Wall Street masters. I described for the senators how insurers make promises they have no intention of keeping, how they flout regulations designed to protect consumers, and how they make it nearly impossible to understand -- or even to obtain -- information consumers need. I also told the Committee how the industry has conducted duplicitous and well-financed PR and lobbying campaigns every time Congress has tried to reform our health care system -- and how its current behind-scenes-efforts may well shape reform in a way that benefits Wall Street far more than average Americans. I noted that, just as the industry did 15 years ago when it led the effort to kill the Clinton reform plan, it is using shills and front groups to spread lies and disinformation to scare Americans away from the very reform that would benefit them most. Make no mistake, the industry, despite its public assurances to be good-faith partners with the President and Congress, has been at work for years laying the groundwork for devious and often sinister campaigns to manipulate public opinion. The industry goes to great lengths to keep its involvement in these campaigns hidden from public view. But I know from having served on many trade group committees that industry leaders are always full partners in developing strategies to derail any reform that might interfere with their ability to increase their companies' profits. In other words, you are the problem because you are one of the idiots that keep saying that the problem is something that does not exist and then you demand that the actual problem step in and fix the problem. The core of the problem is health care will never fit a 'free market' solution. Anyone with an adult brain who understands the basics of a market based transaction can see that the incentives, stakes and leverage are fatally flawed...LITERALLY. Really? Why would I want Wall Street not to have to answer to rules? I just don't
__________________ I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything -- you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him. |
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| [QUOTE=Bfgrn;4810696]Provisions in the Affordable Care Act make it one of the toughest anti-fraud laws in history. The results? Another record setting year. [BFeds recover $4.1B in h]ealth care fraud in 2011[/B] Federal authorities say they recovered $last year, a record high which officials on Monday credited to new tools for cracking down on deceitful Medicare claims. The recovered funds are up roughly 50 percent from 2009. Attorney General Eric Holder and Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius were expected to make the announcement at a news conference Tuesday. more Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government. Edmund Burke[/QUOTE The 4.1 billion in health care fraud is not the important news. The Increased Cost of the AHA is the real news. The just-released( by the CBO) 2012 projection tags the gross cost at $1.76 trillion through 2022—nearly twice the original costt.d I'm Shocked! ObamaCare Costs More Than Promised - Forbes "This report also presents estimates through fiscal year 2022, because the baseline projection period now extends through that additional year. The ACA’s provisions related to insurance coverage are now projected to have a net cost of $1,252 billion over the 2012-2022 period; that amount represents a [B]gross cost to the federal government of $1,762 billion, offset in part by $510 billion in receipts and other budgetary effects (primarily revenues from penalties and other sources)."http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43080 If you do not understand this information, then you must be living in a delusional world of your own design.
__________________ "Attempts to redistribute wealth repeatedly led to the redistribution of poverty." -- Thomas Sowell "The utopian schemes of leveling [redistribution of wealth], and a community of goods, are as visionary and impracticable as those that vest all property in the Crown. [These ideas] are arbitrary, despotic, and, in our government, unconstitutional." Samuel Adams |
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| [quote=usmcstinger;4978757] Provisions in the Affordable Care Act make it one of the toughest anti-fraud laws in history. The results? Another record setting year. [BFeds recover $4.1B in h]ealth care fraud in 2011[/B] Federal authorities say they recovered $last year, a record high which officials on Monday credited to new tools for cracking down on deceitful Medicare claims. The recovered funds are up roughly 50 percent from 2009. Attorney General Eric Holder and Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius were expected to make the announcement at a news conference Tuesday. more Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government. Edmund Burke[/QUOTE The 4.1 billion in health care fraud is not the important news. The Increased Cost of the AHA is the real news. The just-released( by the CBO) 2012 projection tags the gross cost at $1.76 trillion through 2022—nearly twice the original costt.d I'm Shocked! ObamaCare Costs More Than Promised - Forbes "This report also presents estimates through fiscal year 2022, because the baseline projection period now extends through that additional year. The ACA’s provisions related to insurance coverage are now projected to have a net cost of $1,252 billion over the 2012-2022 period; that amount represents a [B]gross cost to the federal government of $1,762 billion, offset in part by $510 billion in receipts and other budgetary effects (primarily revenues from penalties and other sources)."http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43080 If you do not understand this information, then you must be living in a delusional world of your own design. The Cost of Doing Nothing Why the Cost of Failing to Fix Our Health System Is Greater than the Cost of Reform 2008 The U.S. health care system is in crisis. Health care costs too much; we often get too little in exchange for our health care dollar; and tens of millions of Americans are uninsured. Our economy loses hundreds of billions of dollars every year because of the diminished health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. Rising health care costs undermine the ability of U.S. firms to compete internationally, threaten the stability of American jobs, and place increasing strain on local, state, and federal budgets. As health care costs continue to rise faster than wages, health insurance becomes more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. Yet, the recent financial services meltdown has led some people to suggest that we cannot afford health reform and that fixing our broken health care system will have to wait once again. But waiting comes with a price. The crisis worsens every day that we do not act. Premiums will continue to rise; Americans will continue to pay more for less-generous health coverage; and fewer employers will offer health insurance to their workers. We must reform our struggling health system not in spite of our economic crisis, but rather because of the impact health care has on the American economy. The economic and social impact of inaction is high and it will only rise over time. Economic Cost The economic cost of failing to fix our broken health care system is greater than the upfront expense of comprehensive health reform. In 2006, our economy lost as much as $200 billion because of the poor health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. This is by most estimates as much as, if not greater than, the public costs of ensuring all Americans have quality, affordable, health coverage. The economies in California, Texas, and Florida suffer most from productivity loses stemming from the uninsured. Yet, Delaware’s economy loses more per uninsured person -- over $6,800 per uninsured resident. Affordability As health care costs continue to grow faster than wages, health insurance will become more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. The financial burdens associated with health care and health insurance will only get worse over time without action.The cost of the average employer-sponsored health insurance plan (ESI) for a family will reach $24,000 in 2016. This represents an 84 percent increase over 2008 premium levels. Under this scenario, we estimate that at least half of American households will need to spend more than 45 percent of their income to buy health insurance. More
__________________ The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith |
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| The Liberals aka Marxists only believe what makes sense in the delusional world they live in.
__________________ "Attempts to redistribute wealth repeatedly led to the redistribution of poverty." -- Thomas Sowell "The utopian schemes of leveling [redistribution of wealth], and a community of goods, are as visionary and impracticable as those that vest all property in the Crown. [These ideas] are arbitrary, despotic, and, in our government, unconstitutional." Samuel Adams |
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| Freedom of speech on the right: the freedom to parrot the propaganda you're being fed, OR ELSE. Waterloo | FrumForum At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994. This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none. Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.
__________________ The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith |
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| I have a question that I would like to answered by both sides. Is it possible for a company that insures it's employees to drop the coverage and decide to pay the fine because it's cheaper under Obamacare then to pay the insurance company. Then the employer hands out the list of exchanges that the employee will have to make arrangements with for coverage. Anyone have an opinion on this? |
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| I found a lot of articles that speculate this will be true but these articles were written a while back. Nothing more recent.I'm wondering if this was addressed or are the Libs slipping this one past us. If this is the case then Obama lied to America when he said those who have coverage nothing will change and we can still see our same Doctor and have the same coverage. Last edited by Rozman; 03-18-2012 at 02:40 PM. |
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| [quote=Bfgrn;4978846] Provisions in the Affordable Care Act make it one of the toughest anti-fraud laws in history. The results? Another record setting year. [BFeds recover $4.1B in h]ealth care fraud in 2011[/B] Federal authorities say they recovered $last year, a record high which officials on Monday credited to new tools for cracking down on deceitful Medicare claims. The recovered funds are up roughly 50 percent from 2009. Attorney General Eric Holder and Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius were expected to make the announcement at a news conference Tuesday. more Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government. Edmund Burke[/QUOTE The 4.1 billion in health care fraud is not the important news. The Increased Cost of the AHA is the real news. The just-released( by the CBO) 2012 projection tags the gross cost at $1.76 trillion through 2022—nearly twice the original costt.d I'm Shocked! ObamaCare Costs More Than Promised - Forbes "This report also presents estimates through fiscal year 2022, because the baseline projection period now extends through that additional year. The ACA’s provisions related to insurance coverage are now projected to have a net cost of $1,252 billion over the 2012-2022 period; that amount represents a [B]gross cost to the federal government of $1,762 billion, offset in part by $510 billion in receipts and other budgetary effects (primarily revenues from penalties and other sources)."http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43080 If you do not understand this information, then you must be living in a delusional world of your own design. The Cost of Doing Nothing Why the Cost of Failing to Fix Our Health System Is Greater than the Cost of Reform 2008 The U.S. health care system is in crisis. Health care costs too much; we often get too little in exchange for our health care dollar; and tens of millions of Americans are uninsured. Our economy loses hundreds of billions of dollars every year because of the diminished health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. Rising health care costs undermine the ability of U.S. firms to compete internationally, threaten the stability of American jobs, and place increasing strain on local, state, and federal budgets. As health care costs continue to rise faster than wages, health insurance becomes more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. Yet, the recent financial services meltdown has led some people to suggest that we cannot afford health reform and that fixing our broken health care system will have to wait once again. But waiting comes with a price. The crisis worsens every day that we do not act. Premiums will continue to rise; Americans will continue to pay more for less-generous health coverage; and fewer employers will offer health insurance to their workers. We must reform our struggling health system not in spite of our economic crisis, but rather because of the impact health care has on the American economy. The economic and social impact of inaction is high and it will only rise over time. Economic Cost The economic cost of failing to fix our broken health care system is greater than the upfront expense of comprehensive health reform. In 2006, our economy lost as much as $200 billion because of the poor health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. This is by most estimates as much as, if not greater than, the public costs of ensuring all Americans have quality, affordable, health coverage. The economies in California, Texas, and Florida suffer most from productivity loses stemming from the uninsured. Yet, Delaware’s economy loses more per uninsured person -- over $6,800 per uninsured resident. Affordability As health care costs continue to grow faster than wages, health insurance will become more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. The financial burdens associated with health care and health insurance will only get worse over time without action.The cost of the average employer-sponsored health insurance plan (ESI) for a family will reach $24,000 in 2016. This represents an 84 percent increase over 2008 premium levels. Under this scenario, we estimate that at least half of American households will need to spend more than 45 percent of their income to buy health insurance. More
__________________ "Attempts to redistribute wealth repeatedly led to the redistribution of poverty." -- Thomas Sowell "The utopian schemes of leveling [redistribution of wealth], and a community of goods, are as visionary and impracticable as those that vest all property in the Crown. [These ideas] are arbitrary, despotic, and, in our government, unconstitutional." Samuel Adams |
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