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Americans Will Suffer Under New Obamacare Mandates

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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 02:26 PM
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The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it. Thus there is no incentive to shop around, to economize, etc.
Obamacare does nothing to change that calculus. In fact it makes it worse. The result will be skyrocketing health care costs and a moribund system as the gov't squeezes more and more profit out of it. Eventually health care will become rationed. And yes, death panels.
"The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it."

explain this exactly? are you angry because people get free health care? if this is the case why shouldnt they be forced to pay into the system?
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"IRS says it will soon need 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce ObamaCare"
and the evidence is.. USA NEWS: The Internal Revenue Service says it will need an battalion of 1,054 new auditors and staffers. - Good math there
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No dummy, I'm saying that health care through an HMO or a PPO is a "subscription," just like a gym - it is not "insurance."
- Uncensored2008
heres to all those Health "Subscription" Plans!

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 02:35 PM
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The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it. Thus there is no incentive to shop around, to economize, etc.
Obamacare does nothing to change that calculus. In fact it makes it worse. The result will be skyrocketing health care costs and a moribund system as the gov't squeezes more and more profit out of it. Eventually health care will become rationed. And yes, death panels.
"The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it."

explain this exactly? are you angry because people get free health care? if this is the case why shouldnt they be forced to pay into the system?
Im not angry about anything.
But the fact is that we have a largely 3rd party payer system here, whether that party is Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross etc. That encourages people to use medical services indiscriminately because someone else is picking up the tab.
The uninsured is a very small part of the problem. Most people going to the ER have insurance.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 02:39 PM
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The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it. Thus there is no incentive to shop around, to economize, etc.
Obamacare does nothing to change that calculus. In fact it makes it worse. The result will be skyrocketing health care costs and a moribund system as the gov't squeezes more and more profit out of it. Eventually health care will become rationed. And yes, death panels.
"The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it."

explain this exactly? are you angry because people get free health care? if this is the case why shouldnt they be forced to pay into the system?
Im not angry about anything.
But the fact is that we have a largely 3rd party payer system here, whether that party is Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross etc. That encourages people to use medical services indiscriminately because someone else is picking up the tab.
The uninsured is a very small part of the problem. Most people going to the ER have insurance.
so what is your solution? single payer?

the model i think that should be followed (if not single payer) is the kaiser model. as they are a non profit and both sell insurance as well as own and operate their own hospitals and HC facilities. thus everything is under one roof.

the uninsured are a huge problem, the only consume services, but do not pay into the system. dont you think they should have to pay into the system?

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/03/uninsured-us-citizens/

the uninsured make up rough% of the general population and are typically well under the poverty level. (based on a population estimate of 307 million - i googled it)
__________________
"IRS says it will soon need 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce ObamaCare"
and the evidence is.. USA NEWS: The Internal Revenue Service says it will need an battalion of 1,054 new auditors and staffers. - Good math there
- American Cowboy

No dummy, I'm saying that health care through an HMO or a PPO is a "subscription," just like a gym - it is not "insurance."
- Uncensored2008
heres to all those Health "Subscription" Plans!

"Faith is the evidence of things not seen. When it's dark at night, does the sun cease to exist?"
- Jack Fate

Last edited by Skynet; 06-15-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 02:52 PM
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If everyone wants government run health care than the people of each state should vote and give their state the power to run their health care which is going to mean tax increases. Powers not given to the Federal government are reserved for the states, right?

That way NY and CA can have government run health care and the taxpayers of the other states don't have to foot the bill.

If you want nationwide health care then there has to be a constitutional amendment. Have an amendment giving the power to the Federal government to have universal health care and its done.

If the majority of Americans throughout the country want it than surely an amendment can be passed?

That's just it. The majority of Americans are against this health care bill ever since it was passed. The majority still wants it repealed.

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports™
Other than the mandate, can you please point to a "specific" section of the new health care law that you oppose.

Look at the cost of Medicare and Medicaid 817 Billion
Doctor's are not taking any new patients who are on Medicare, because they can't afford it. It has a cap on what they will get paid for services.
You have any idea how long you are going to have to wait to get an appointment?
Try at least 3 to 5 months.
Premiums are still going up.
The cost to state governments and companies.
Why do you think the majority of Americans have never wanted government Health care.
Ever since Teddy Roosevelt to today the majority has not wanted it.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 02:57 PM
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"The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it."

explain this exactly? are you angry because people get free health care? if this is the case why shouldnt they be forced to pay into the system?
Im not angry about anything.
But the fact is that we have a largely 3rd party payer system here, whether that party is Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross etc. That encourages people to use medical services indiscriminately because someone else is picking up the tab.
The uninsured is a very small part of the problem. Most people going to the ER have insurance.
so what is your solution? single payer?

the model i think that should be followed (if not single payer) is the kaiser model. as they are a non profit and both sell insurance as well as own and operate their own hospitals and HC facilities. thus everything is under one roof.

the uninsured are a huge problem, the only consume services, but do not pay into the system. dont you think they should have to pay into the system?

Uninsured U.S. Citizens | FactCheck.org

the uninsured make up rough% of the general population and are typically well under the poverty level. (based on a population estimate of 307 million - i googled it)
End corporate deductibility of insurance premiums. Lower tax rates so people can shop for their own insurance. Allow insurance to be sold across state lines. Tort reform.
Generally the theme should be to push as much responsibility on the individual as possible. This way people make their own decisions, which usually end up costing less.

The uninsured are not that big a factor in health care costs. They are a factor, but there are otehr much bigger ones.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 02:57 PM
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That's just it. The majority of Americans are against this health care bill ever since it was passed. The majority still wants it repealed.

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports™
Other than the mandate, can you please point to a "specific" section of the new health care law that you oppose.

Look at the cost of Medicare and Medicaid 817 Billion
Doctor's are not taking any new patients who are on Medicare, because they can't afford it. It has a cap on what they will get paid for services.
You have any idea how long you are going to have to wait to get an appointment?
Try at least 3 to 5 months.
Premiums are still going up.
The cost to state governments and companies.
Why do you think the majority of Americans have never wanted government Health care.
Ever since Teddy Roosevelt to today the majority has not wanted it.
Medicare and Medicaid were not created under the new health care law, if you dont like those programs they need to be repealed separately.

premiums increased 100% from 2000-2009 before this new law was even signed. how is this the new laws fault?

explain to me again what exact part of the new health care law you dont like, because all are see are opinions on "possible affects" or "existing problems"
__________________
"IRS says it will soon need 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce ObamaCare"
and the evidence is.. USA NEWS: The Internal Revenue Service says it will need an battalion of 1,054 new auditors and staffers. - Good math there
- American Cowboy

No dummy, I'm saying that health care through an HMO or a PPO is a "subscription," just like a gym - it is not "insurance."
- Uncensored2008
heres to all those Health "Subscription" Plans!

"Faith is the evidence of things not seen. When it's dark at night, does the sun cease to exist?"
- Jack Fate
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 02:58 PM
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"The main issue with health care costs, and thus insurance, is that the person getting health care is not the person paying for it."

explain this exactly? are you angry because people get free health care? if this is the case why shouldnt they be forced to pay into the system?
Im not angry about anything.
But the fact is that we have a largely 3rd party payer system here, whether that party is Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross etc. That encourages people to use medical services indiscriminately because someone else is picking up the tab.
The uninsured is a very small part of the problem. Most people going to the ER have insurance.
so what is your solution? single payer?

the model i think that should be followed (if not single payer) is the kaiser model. as they are a non profit and both sell insurance as well as own and operate their own hospitals and HC facilities. thus everything is under one roof.

the uninsured are a huge problem, the only consume services, but do not pay into the system. dont you think they should have to pay into the system?

Uninsured U.S. Citizens | FactCheck.org

the uninsured make up rough% of the general population and are typically well under the poverty level. (based on a population estimate of 307 million - i googled it)

Under the new Health Care plan Seniors will start going to emergency rooms, because Dr's are refusing to take new patients under Medicare. They can't afford it.
We got a whole lot of babyboomers going on medicare. So that means a whole lot are going to go the emergency rooms.
Where else will they go if they can't get a regular Dr. to see them.
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Old 06-15-2011, 02:58 PM
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ummmmmm that may be one of the stupidest thing anyone could say.
You're drooling cretin, wipe your chin..

Quote:
you pay your premiums for health care services.
Like you pay "premiums" for a gym membership?

Again, healthcare is provided with the assumption that all will utilize the service. Insurance assumes that very few will file a claim.

You're not just wrong here, you're utterly ****ing stupid.

Quote:
check ups, vaccination, physicals, etc. and when your premium dollars dont cover the costs of you treatments,
So coverage payments don't cover the cost of "check ups, vaccination, physicals, etc," but we assume ALL will utilize these - but we will take from the excess of others to cover them...

Are you sure you've thought this through?

Seriously dude, can't you see how abysmally stupid your claim is? I know you love and serve your party - but....

Quote:
thanks for not disputing that none of those things are in the constitution.
Well thanks for not disputing the path the Easter Bunny takes when dropping off eggs...

(Could you be anymore ****ing irrelevant?)

Quote:
do you have a supreme court ruling youd like to reference, or are you making things up as usual?
I believe Santa Clara is generally cited as precedent for ruling the compulsion to purchase goods violates the 14th amendment equal protection clause.

Quote:
all states have financial responsibility laws, which translates to either a $25,000 bond or mandatory auto insurance.
Again, you're full of ****.

In California, you must be able to cover $50,000 in personal injury and an additional $35,000 in property damage. Tennessee requires $100,000 in bond or escrow, or insurance to cover the same.

Each state is free to set their own laws regarding financial responsibility.

What is a "financial responsibility" law?


Quote:
prove this! between 2000 and 2009 health care premiums doubled all thanks to the new health care law right? oh wait a min.....
{The report shows health care costs and premiums continuing to rise—and uncertainty increasing for employers who offer insurance to their workers. Health care spending increased by 7.5 percent in 2010 and will grow by 8 percent this year. In 2012, it will rise again by 8.5 percent. This is exactly the opposite of the President’s promise that his health care plan would reduce premiums by $2,500 per person.}

New Study Shows Higher Health Care Costs under Obamacare | The Foundry


Quote:
im dont see the "right to trade time and labor for the things ones values" written specificallyin the constitution. please show me where this is....
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Try again, sparky.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 03:08 PM
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End corporate deductibility of insurance premiums. Lower tax rates so people can shop for their own insurance. Allow insurance to be sold across state lines. Tort reform.
Generally the theme should be to push as much responsibility on the individual as possible. This way people make their own decisions, which usually end up costing less.

The uninsured are not that big a factor in health care costs. They are a factor, but there are otehr much bigger ones.
isnt ending a corporate tax credit for providing HC the same as increasing taxes on corporation? i though the right was all for lowering the tax liability of the corporations so they can "create more jobs?"

Per the new health care law, you can now take your health insurance across state lines (thanks for agreeing with the new law finally)

so the tax credits in the new health care law to help pay for premiums are a good things?
(thanks for agreeing again)

so what is your solution to pay for the people consume health care but dont pay into the system? you still havent answered this question.....


the uninsured cost the US health care system over $125 billion annually (best i could find was a 2004 article from Kaiser - http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/...l-Spending.pdf)

thats not a small number, but its a number that is still passed on the rest of us.
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"IRS says it will soon need 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce ObamaCare"
and the evidence is.. USA NEWS: The Internal Revenue Service says it will need an battalion of 1,054 new auditors and staffers. - Good math there
- American Cowboy

No dummy, I'm saying that health care through an HMO or a PPO is a "subscription," just like a gym - it is not "insurance."
- Uncensored2008
heres to all those Health "Subscription" Plans!

"Faith is the evidence of things not seen. When it's dark at night, does the sun cease to exist?"
- Jack Fate
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 03:20 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Uncensored2008 Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
ummmmmm that may be one of the stupidest thing anyone could say.
You're drooling cretin, wipe your chin..

Quote:
you pay your premiums for health care services.
Like you pay "premiums" for a gym membership?

Again, healthcare is provided with the assumption that all will utilize the service. Insurance assumes that very few will file a claim.

so what youre saying is that your gym membership is actually insurance. when you get sick or hurt you can go to them and they will give you care? that really shows your stupidity. as the amount of money you pay in HC premiums never is the exact same cost of services you receive. some years you pay more, some years you pay less. when you consume more services than you pay for, they are covered by other people premiums.

i dont think ive ever heard someone call a gym membership a "premium" Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images. must be the same thing as the country club premium and museum premium....


So coverage payments don't cover the cost of "check ups, vaccination, physicals, etc," but we assume ALL will utilize these - but we will take from the excess of others to cover them...

what?? are you claiming that your premiums dont cover check ups, vaccinations and physicals? if thats your argument, your really really really dumb


I believe Santa Clara is generally cited as precedent for ruling the compulsion to purchase goods violates the 14th amendment equal protection clause.


you can believe all you want, its doesnt make it true. i bet you still believe in santa claus, the easter bunny and tooth fairy as well


In California, you must be able to cover $50,000 in personal injury and an additional $35,000 in property damage. Tennessee requires $100,000 in bond or escrow, or insurance to cover the same.

thats the insurance minimum, not the financial responsibility minimum per the DMV, you can put a cash bond on file with the state for $35,000 (i apologize i said $25k, as it has since gone up) -

Each state is free to set their own laws regarding financial responsibility.

yes you are still mandated by the government

What is a "financial responsibility" law?


Quote:
prove this! between 2000 and 2009 health care premiums doubled all thanks to the new health care law right? oh wait a min.....
{The report shows health care costs and premiums continuing to rise—and uncertainty increasing for employers who offer insurance to their workers. Health care spending increased by 7.5 percent in 2010 and will grow by 8 percent this year. In 2012, it will rise again by 8.5 percent. This is exactly the opposite of the President’s promise that his health care plan would reduce premiums by $2,500 per person.}

New Study Shows Higher Health Care Costs under Obamacare | The Foundry

thanks for quoting a conservative website that is know to report inaccuracies and half truths.

Quote:
im dont see the "right to trade time and labor for the things ones values" written specificallyin the constitution. please show me where this is....
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

still dont see those exact words, as this is his argument, that the government cant do anything that is not exactly written in the constitution.

Try again, sparky.
you should really stop trying to claim the Foundry is a legitimate source.
__________________
"IRS says it will soon need 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce ObamaCare"
and the evidence is.. USA NEWS: The Internal Revenue Service says it will need an battalion of 1,054 new auditors and staffers. - Good math there
- American Cowboy

No dummy, I'm saying that health care through an HMO or a PPO is a "subscription," just like a gym - it is not "insurance."
- Uncensored2008
heres to all those Health "Subscription" Plans!

"Faith is the evidence of things not seen. When it's dark at night, does the sun cease to exist?"
- Jack Fate
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 03:29 PM
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If everyone wants government run healthcare than the people of each state should vote and give their state the power to run their healthcare which is going to mean tax increases. Powers not given to the Federal government are reserved for the states, right?

That way NY and CA can have government run health care and the taxpayers of the other states don't have to foot the bill.

If you want nationwide healthcare then there has to be a constitutional amendment. Have an amendment giving the power to the Federal government to have universal healthcare and its done.

If the majority of americans throughout the country want it than surely an amendment can be passed?
MassCare’s Dismal Failure Is A Preview Of Whats To Come With ObamaCare | Flopping Aces

TennCare—A Failure Of Politics, Not Policy: A Conversation With Gordon Bonnyman

Single payer is a failure.
What does single payer have to do with "obamacare"?
Single payer is the goal of Obamacare.

Single Payer Coming Under Obamacare - HUMAN EVENTS

And single payer simply doesn't work.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:30 PM
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If everyone wants government run healthcare than the people of each state should vote and give their state the power to run their healthcare which is going to mean tax increases. Powers not given to the Federal government are reserved for the states, right?

That way NY and CA can have government run health care and the taxpayers of the other states don't have to foot the bill.

If you want nationwide healthcare then there has to be a constitutional amendment. Have an amendment giving the power to the Federal government to have universal healthcare and its done.

If the majority of americans throughout the country want it than surely an amendment can be passed?

That's just it. The majority of Americans are against this health care bill ever since it was passed. The majority still wants it repealed.

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports™
Don't make the mistake of believe that Democrats give a damn about democracy.

The proles need to be told what to think and what to do and how to live.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:32 PM
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are you angry because people get free health care?
There is no such thing.
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"Will you drink to the earth, and to the days that have passed upon it? Will you drink to the fullness that was, and to friends that have passed on? Will you drink to good company, well met? Will these things set us on, Old Mother?" -- The gunslinger's blessing

"I see your heart is true, gunslinger, and that you hold to the old ways of your kind; ay, you hold to them very well. I bless you and yours and will pray that no harm will come to you." -- The Old Mother's blessing
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2011, 03:34 PM
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End corporate deductibility of insurance premiums. Lower tax rates so people can shop for their own insurance. Allow insurance to be sold across state lines. Tort reform.
Generally the theme should be to push as much responsibility on the individual as possible. This way people make their own decisions, which usually end up costing less.

The uninsured are not that big a factor in health care costs. They are a factor, but there are otehr much bigger ones.
isnt ending a corporate tax credit for providing HC the same as increasing taxes on corporation? i though the right was all for lowering the tax liability of the corporations so they can "create more jobs?"

Per the new health care law, you can now take your health insurance across state lines (thanks for agreeing with the new law finally)

so the tax credits in the new health care law to help pay for premiums are a good things?
(thanks for agreeing again)

so what is your solution to pay for the people consume health care but dont pay into the system? you still havent answered this question.....


the uninsured cost the US health care system over $125 billion annually (best i could find was a 2004 article from Kaiser - http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/...l-Spending.pdf)

thats not a small number, but its a number that is still passed on the rest of us.
You obviously missed the part about lowering tax rates.
So the health care law allows you to buy insurance across state lines?? What section is that in?

How is another gov't subsidy a good thing? When did I say it was?

Making health care cheaper will allow more people to pay for it. Obamacare was initially touted as a fix for the uninsured. In fact their own figures show a very minor change. In MA they found people who were uninsured suddenly became insured after they got sick. How shifting the burden of people who cannot pay from one entity to another is going to help is a mystery to me.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:53 PM
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End corporate deductibility of insurance premiums. Lower tax rates so people can shop for their own insurance. Allow insurance to be sold across state lines. Tort reform.
Generally the theme should be to push as much responsibility on the individual as possible. This way people make their own decisions, which usually end up costing less.

The uninsured are not that big a factor in health care costs. They are a factor, but there are otehr much bigger ones.
isnt ending a corporate tax credit for providing HC the same as increasing taxes on corporation? i though the right was all for lowering the tax liability of the corporations so they can "create more jobs?"

Per the new health care law, you can now take your health insurance across state lines (thanks for agreeing with the new law finally)

so the tax credits in the new health care law to help pay for premiums are a good things?
(thanks for agreeing again)

so what is your solution to pay for the people consume health care but dont pay into the system? you still havent answered this question.....


the uninsured cost the US health care system over $125 billion annually (best i could find was a 2004 article from Kaiser - http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/...l-Spending.pdf)

thats not a small number, but its a number that is still passed on the rest of us.
You obviously missed the part about lowering tax rates.
So the health care law allows you to buy insurance across state lines?? What section is that in?

How is another gov't subsidy a good thing? When did I say it was?

Making health care cheaper will allow more people to pay for it. Obamacare was initially touted as a fix for the uninsured. In fact their own figures show a very minor change. In MA they found people who were uninsured suddenly became insured after they got sick. How shifting the burden of people who cannot pay from one entity to another is going to help is a mystery to me.
PPACA Section 1333 requires the parent department of CMS, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), to issue regulations governing the creation of “health care choice” compacts by July 1, 2013.
Starting Jan. 1, 2016, two or more states will be able to use a compact to allow qualified health plans based in the participating states to sell health insurance in all participating states.

you said you want to eliminate the tax breaks corporations gets for providing HC to its employees, how does that lower taxes?

how do you suggest we made health care costs decrease? i still havent heard an answer.
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and the evidence is.. USA NEWS: The Internal Revenue Service says it will need an battalion of 1,054 new auditors and staffers. - Good math there
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No dummy, I'm saying that health care through an HMO or a PPO is a "subscription," just like a gym - it is not "insurance."
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heres to all those Health "Subscription" Plans!

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