granted, weakly.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-12377,00.html

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

The British National Party is a fascist party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

My guess is that the rest of the participants are, too.

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The empiricist will change his opinion in light of contrary evidence. The ideologue will retain his opinion despite contrary evidence.

So is Vlaams Belang, problem is, the 'responsible folks' are not standing up. There is no where to turn.

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

Maybe the "responsible folks" don't want to be associated with the type of people who are "weakly" standing up.

And exactly what are they standing up to? The article isn't clear. Cities against Islamisation? I have no idea what that actually means. I know what they'd like me to think it means (Islam is spreading through Europe like a cancer and must be stopped before is has gone so far that everything we value will be lost forever). Sounds rather like what Hitler said about the Jews.

The more people "stand up" with xenophobes like the BNP, the more moderate Muslims will be driven towards the extremes of Islam.

__________________
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies.
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk to wise.

Rudyard Kipling

Then the responsible people need to recognize the difference between tolerance and appeasement. But that's not happening, is it?

Europe is in serious problems and they officially refuse to recognize it. Appease all you wish, the Islamicists are burning cars now, maybe more later.

__________________
"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

Boy, people really throw the word appease around easily these days.

Why is it that someone like me, who is unwilling to stand side by side with the British equivalent of the Klan, is the kind of person that you call an appeaser? How exactly is what I just said appeasement?

__________________
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies.
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk to wise.

Rudyard Kipling

There shouldn't be a reason for a person like you to stand with such. Bottom line, the good people in Europe should be demanding that their governments insist that immigrants and citizens adhere to the ideas that have made you all first world countries. It's time to say, 'we admire and allow for diversity, but not at the expense of our own identity. Not doing that, not yet.

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

Ah! Somewhat more on your page now. Though I'm still not sure how a government can insist on this sort of thing and actually achieve it - battles for hearts and minds are rarely won by one side or the other insisting on something. Some form of compromise is what is generally needed. Compromise is not really a tactic that the likes of the BNP are too interested in.

For them, it's more an all or nothing strategy. Realising that this is an issue that is high on the public agenda at present (and it is, whether you believe it or not), such parties use this kind of issue as part of a 'divide and conquer' strategy. The more anti-Muslim sentiment they can whip up, the more the public will be divided into 'them and us' camps. The more this happens, the more Muslims (and others) will be more receptive to radical messages.

I have no problem with Muslim immigrants in Britain wanting to have Mosques to worship in. What I have a problem with is the manner in which some of these Mosques appear to be used - specifically for promoting extreme forms of Islam. The way to counter this, in my opinion, is by working with the moderates in such communities (who are the overwhelming majority) in such a way that extreme messages do not have any fertile groung in which to grow.

What I also have a problem with is the ease with which immigrants can get into Britain, and the amount of time it takes to process those who should not be here and have them removed.

Every country, I would contend, can benefit from immigration. If the pool of skills is insufficient among the existing population, why not encourage immigration among those who can provide these skills? At the moment however, it seems to be largely a free for all.

Anyone who is a member of the EU has a right to work anywhere within the EU. This has meant that skilled workers from Eastern European countries have flooded into the UK, lured by the kind of wages they could never earn in their country of origin. However, along with them have come thousands of less useful people. Small wonder these days that prostitution, drug rings, money laundering and human trafficking in London are all dominated by gangs from the likes of Poland, Serbia, Albania, and others.

That last bit was slightly off subject I know, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

__________________
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies.
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk to wise.

Rudyard Kipling

What does that mean? Muslims themselves do not seem very interested in opposing their more radical adherents. Within the Muslim community there is probably more tacit acceptance of radical goals than you want to believe. Regarding the integration of Muslims in Europe, what's going to happen when 80 million Turks join the EU?

Government through leadership can make it as easy for those that wish to speak out to not be hit with the equivalent of our 'hate crimes' for words, whether spoken, drawn, or written. Stop the censorship of the opposing views, which we see happening often. Government can also apply those laws fairly, punishing those that are Asian for the same sort of behavior, rather than chalking it up to cultural. Why is England paying for the restoration of virginity for those returning 'home' to get married, but can't see paying for the obese WWII vet with cancer? Those would be some of the questions I'd ask myself. Truly, you and the government is guessing here, there is not one whit of evidence to back that up. In fact, the Muslim groups are always calling 'foul' and the government and 'reasonable' people are always trying to appease more. Like onedomino, this strikes me as the height of avoidance. Tell me, if you were to go to your church or an association and the leaders were speaking of hate and domination, (sort of like the neo-Nazi groups, would you stay? I think not. So what makes you think that those you consider 'moderate' are? Which was my point about the 'good people.' See the neo-Nazis are the weakest link that is reacting to the threat. A couple charismatic leaders there and then you'll have your war. Actually, I think this last bit is quite on the subject and the one area that many Americans can relate to. I think as a result of being able to speak up here, at least so far, both our illegals and those that think that it has gotten out of hand are able to argue openly. While our 'war' about illegals is on going and far from won, our politicians are aware that they cannot operate on this the way they wish, not if they wish to be reelected. On the other side, illegals are recognizing that the sides are engaged and time is against them. While anecdotal, there are stories of people returning at least to Mexico to try to rectify their standing. Of course, these are the people that have been causing no harm, other than in salaries. In all likelihood they will return, legally, better for us and them.

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"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

That will be news to those of them that are.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=48535664

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/in...gewanted=print

http://www.euro-islam.info/spip/arti...page=20&pas=88

__________________
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies.
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk to wise.

Rudyard Kipling

I'm not familiar with either example so I can't really comment. But there are always micro-arguments that can be used in cases like this. If you can provide links or more detail I'll read up on both issues.

Er, truly, I'm not. Are you seriously suggesting that people with a political agenda do not latch onto populist issues and then try to segment the electorate by giving them a load of hypothetical threats, citing extreme examples and then telling them who's to blame for it?

Would I stay? I don't know. It depends how much it meant to me. Is retreat from difficult issues is always your preferred policy? If so, that truly is the thin end of the wedge.

It seems to me that a lot of people just somehow assume that if you're a Muslim, there's something evil or at least duplicitous about you. I just think it's astonishingly unfair to group them in this manner.

__________________
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies.
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk to wise.

Rudyard Kipling

I think we are speaking past each other again. I'm not for retreating, quite the contrary. I'm unsure what the immigration policies are in EU, but they seem to deport more than the US does. I've read of cases where imams were deported for incitement to violence, but it seems that is a major problem, so the numbers probably do not keep up with what's going on. I'm guessing on that, but you originally brought that up.

With what I was speaking about listening to 'hate' talk. If I went into my church and the priest was ranting about illegals the way some of us do on a messageboard and the congregation seemed to go along with that, I would find myself another church. It wouldn't matter to me if there wasn't a 'call to action', just the idea of using a situation to rail against others, no. If I heard calls for 'action', I'd report to the authorities.

I think we, the US, needs to change our way of dealing with illegal immigrants, but I would never choose to join a group where that was the focus. No, I look for candidates that want to work within the system.

From what I've read, Europe would be better off to end discrimination against the 'Asians' so they have more working young men instead of young men in jails or churches being radicalized. This seems to be the largest issue in France and I've read that England is just slightly better off. France seems overly punitive, while England overly appeasing. Germany seems to have less of a problem, but because of their history, less able to cope when problems arise. I also fear what may happen if Europe doesn't get this under control, the continent has not the best track record in working out it's problems, peacefully.

__________________
"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain

Your first article was about the US, the conversation I thought we were having was about Europe. It is going to take a lot more than one new Imam at Finsbury Park to turn attitudes around there. The third article (all your citations were US media, btw) pertains to "Britain is struggling with how to counter radical jihadist ideologies that have taken hold among some Muslim young people here, particularly those of Pakistani descent. The 2004 train bombing, organized by four Pakistani immigrants, has made this community a target of the government’s efforts." None of what you posted negates my point that Muslims themselves do not seem very interested in opposing their more radical adherents. Within the Muslim community there is probably more tacit acceptance of radical goals than you want to believe." Where are the massive Muslim street demonstrations in the UK denouncing the violence of Islamic radical terrorists? Where are those demonstrations in the rest of Europe, or the US, for that matter? Of course the answer is that there are no such demonstrations because there is tacit acceptance (and fear) of Islamic radical terrorist violence in the Muslim communities. Yeah, an occasional Imam speaks against such violence, but so what? Violence seems to be the main method that many Muslims use to express themselves politically, whether the venue is the UK, Spain, Iraq, Gaza, Pakistan, Thailand, Western China, Philippines, etc.

Anyway, you did not address my question about the admission of 80 million Muslim Turks into the EU. What will happen with the Islamification of Europe then?

Came across this, thought you might find it interesting:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019648.php

__________________
"We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain