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CAP AND TRADE - Coming to your state soon?

This is a discussion on CAP AND TRADE - Coming to your state soon? within the Environment forums, part of the US Discussion category; Skull Pilot up there has just touched on the tip of the iceberg of the unalienable rigthts, choices, opportunities, and options that we can personally ...


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View Poll Results: What effect will Cap and Trade most likely have?
It is necessary to combat climate change and promote a changeover to clean energy. 2 13.33%
It won't help but will hurt the economy and violate our rights. 12 80.00%
It won't have much effect on anybody at all. 1 6.67%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-30-2010, 12:47 PM
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Skull Pilot up there has just touched on the tip of the iceberg of the unalienable rigthts, choices, opportunities, and options that we can personally lose. And the cost will be enormous.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:47 PM
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Posted in another thread - and worth repeating:

Given the Obama Administration's goal of passing Cap and Trade and its demonization of Wall Street - it's important to understand how Goldman Sachs is actually a big stakeholder in seeing it pass:

Whether Wall Street colossus Goldman Sachs has committed a crime remains to be seen, but the investigation may well uncover the environmental lobby and its public figurehead. For nearly a decade, Goldman Sachs has been a quiet but major investor in cap and trade. And Goldman’s main investment partner has been Al Gore.

About a decade ago, Goldman executives recognized that personal fortunes could be made with the invention of a carbon trading system through the passage of a U.S. cap-and-trade bill. This area was well suited to Goldman Sachs, the architects behind the complex world of futures trading and exotic derivatives.

Goldman joined Al Gore in 2004 and capitalized his investment company, Generation Investment Management. Strangely for a man who was a heartbeat away from the presidency, Gore decided to register his company in London — not the United States.

In November 2004, Gore unveiled GIM. Standing at his side was David Blood, the CEO of Goldman Asset Management. Blood was to become his co-founder (the new company was quickly nicknamed “Blood & Gore”). It was established with the initial capital of $206 million, much of it from Blood clients at Goldman Sachs.

Gore also turned to Goldman Sachs guru (and later Bush Treasury Secretary) Henry Paulson to help him establish GIM. At the time, Paulson himself was an eco-warrior of sorts, serving as chairman of the board of the Nature Conservancy.

Today, seven of Gore’s GIM chief partners are from Goldman Sachs. The company is now valued at $2.2 billion.

(snip)

Marc Morano, publisher of Climatedepot.com, agrees:

Goldman Sachs is helping to engineer the next great bubble. And we are talking about subprime science, subprime politics, and subprime economics. Goldman Sachs is at the forefront of the subprime economics of carbon trading.

Although cap and trade has temporarily faded in Washington, D.C., carbon trading still lives in the nation’s capital. Next week, Senators John Kerry (D-MA), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), and Joe Lieberman (I-CT) are expected to unveil a new cap-and-trade bill.

The idea of turning a free, colorless, and odorless gas into a product still attracts the money people. Myron Ebell, director of Freedom Action, says:

These Gore investments could potentially make him a billionaire. For a guy who started with just a small fortune he could end up with a very large one.


Pajamas Media Will Obama’s Goldman Sachs Attack Expose Al Gore? Or Other Dems?
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:00 PM
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You know, I expect bills like that to be introduced by liberal airheads like Kerry.

But it is galling when it is somebody who purports to be a good conservative playing into their hand that way.

Lindsey Graham needs to go at the earliest opportunity.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:28 PM
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:45 PM
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Well pick one who will admit that he or she is a Progressive Democrat and we will at least have somebody in the office with some ideological integrity.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:35 PM
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Cap and trade worked for sulphate emmissions. However, I think that even with cap and trade, the effects of the GHGs will become severe enough that by the time the policy is in position, much more draconian measures will be taken. To not much avail. At least 30 years inertia in the system.
Not the same thing and it was a more local system closed to speculators and outside investing. Sulphate was a much smaller scale than CO2. Also it was a true problem and a harm to the environment. CO2 is everywhere and in nearly every industry on the planet hell man life itself produces CO2.

You are trying an apples to oranges comparison...
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:41 PM
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http://www.epa.gov/AIRMARKET/cap-tra.../ctresults.pdf

The Acid Rain Program was established under Title IV
of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments to reduce acid
rain and improve public health by dramatically reducing
emissions of SO2 and NOx. Using a market-based cap
and trade approach, the program sets a permanent cap
on the total amount of SO2 that may be emitted by
electric power plants nationwide. The cap is set at about
one half of the amount of SO2 emitted in 1980, and the
trading component allows flexibility for sources to select
the method of compliance. The program also sets NOx
emission limitations for coal-fired units with some
compliance flexibility, representing about a 27 percent
reduction from 1990 levels.
Nice piece of propaganda oldsocks...... Why not just post evidence of global warming from the Club of Rome site and cut out the middleman? Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:45 PM
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Close to the same, harder to enforce. The suphate emissions usually settled within a few hundred miles of the source, the CO2 affects all the world.

The reason that I do not think they will be effective is that the effects we are seeing right now from AGW were predicted to happen 20 to 100 years from now. If this continues, only an outright, and rapidly declining cap will do any good, and only decades in the future. From past observation, there is about 30 years or more heating from the present GHGs in the atmosphere. There is that much inertia in the system.
DUDE STOP LYING!

Seriously man its getting old now. You don't know any of that at all, all you have is a popular theory and its losing popularity by the minute.......
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"Before Einstein, scientists stated the energy could not be created nor destroyed. After Einstein, that was ammended by the addition of, "by ordinary means", neglecting of course that on a universal scale there is nothing more ordinary than nuclear fusion." -PMZ explaining his version of conservation of energy..
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:57 PM
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I've been reading up a little about Cap and Trade.

I didn't really understand it until recently. Now, I think I have a slightly better idea of what it is.

This is the liberal idea of how one buys his way into heaven. It is very similar to the Catholic Church selling indulgences during the days of Martin Luther only now it is the U.S. Government selling indulgences to companies allowing them to sin a little bit of pollution into our air.

Hmm, as a Lutheran, I'm not so sure I like this idea.

Immie
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:59 PM
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I've been reading up a little about Cap and Trade.

I didn't really understand it until recently. Now, I think I have a slightly better idea of what it is.

This is the liberal idea of how one buys his way into heaven. It is very similar to the Catholic Church selling indulgences during the days of Martin Luther only now it is the U.S. Government selling indulgences to companies allowing them to sin a little bit of pollution into our air.

Hmm, as a Lutheran, I'm not so sure I like this idea.

Immie
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:03 PM
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yikes---that makes Al Gore pope don't it ? Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:05 PM
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Two days ago, 4/29/10 Glenn Beck started exposing the Chicago Climate exchange's linkages in the second hour of his show. I'm sure you can find the podcast to listen to, but this information is what I remember being talked about regarding it. Listen for more clear details, there may be errors in translation.

As it is planned, the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) will be utilizing new technology and software created to monitor all major greenhouse gases in order to price and facilitate trade in this new form of taxation and economic control. (Since AGW doesn't exist, there's no crisis to prevent but the pretense to maintain.)

The patent for this 'big board' technology to monitor Greenhouse Gasses that will be used by the CCX is held by Franklin Raines, purchased relatively cheaply while he was in charge of Fannie Mae and used federal tax monies in which to purchase it. Now we all should remember that Franklin Raines collected millions and millions of dollars in bonuses for cooking the books at Fannie in order to keep the profit margins artificially high for his own personal gain as well as give the illusion all was well. When questioned WHY Fannie Mae bought the patent, since it obviously is outside the scope of services and duties of Fannie Mae, the interested parties were told that they weren't interested in the technology... yet.

Now, Franklin Raines is at the Center for American Progress (a radical leftist political action group), being rehabilitated before being put back into public circulation, and is also involved in an initiative being called "Emerald City (Cities maybe?)" who's goal is to create greener cities and smart growth policy among other aspects. I find it interesting that I can't find much information right now on it, so I'm not sure what to make of this initiative or group. Why is it significant... you shall see.

In the mean time, if/when cap and tax passes, the CCX now has the EXCLUSIVE rights to the technology, owned by Fannie Mae and Franklin Raines to begin selling carbon and greenhouse gas credits. The money collected by these transactions is estimated to be approximately 10 TRILLION dollars. The CCX on the other hand is a non-profit and therefore cannot keep the money, if my understanding is correct. So, it has been suggested by the board of directors to funnel the money of 10 trillion dollars into associated green, progressive political action groups like SEIU, ACT, ACORN, Center for American Progress and this potential Emerald Cities group in which to push forth their progressive/fascist/socialist agenda. To give an idea of scale... the US GDP is 14 trillion.

So, what is at stake here? 10 trillion dollars of your money ending up in the hands of radical socialist/fascist/progressives funneled through an exchange that stands to profit an organization rife with fraud, and enrich a man exposed as a fraud, not to mention enrich thousands of political shock troops who will then try to fundamentally change this nation forever.

The horrible beautiful machine has been built. It is just waiting for the fuel to be put in... and then...

What I have not been so good at is confirming what I was listening to on Glenn's show. Check it out at his site and see what I've got wrong, and/or what I misunderstood. I would rather know truth than be right on this one. Particularly if this whole mess isn't true, as I sure as hell hope it isn't.

2nd hour, 4/29/10. Listen for yourself at glennbeck.com
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:08 PM
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Hahahahaha,

Maybe not Pope, but at least a Cardinal.

Immie
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:26 PM
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does anybody have any info on "Chicago Climate Exchange" a business set up solely for trading in emissions (which really seems strange to me --- what kind of product is that?)

apparently this company stockholders include goldman-sachs, al gore and barack obama.
CCX Chicago Carbon Exchange, Al Gore and Former UN environmental programme head Maurice strong are stock holders, Strong being the former president of that company while he was the UN environment head.

Also the company is part of Climate Exchange PLC. A multi-national climate trading company. Incidentally they made attention in 1995 in the small scale So2 markets.... Coincidence?

In this group of CO2 marketers we have...

ENVEX - ENVEX is a key service provider to emerging environmental markets. Our goal is to foster Australian environmental markets that are deep, liquid, efficient, and transparent.

CCFE - Chicago Climate Futures Exchange® (CCFE®) operates the leading U.S. marketplace for environmental derivatives, financial instruments whose underlying values are tradable environmental assets.

ECX - The European Climate Exchange (ECX) is the leading marketplace for trading carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in Europe and internationally.

MCEX - The Montréal Climate Exchange (MCeX) provides a market-based solution to help companies and all those involved in addressing the most serious environmental challenges, especially reducing air pollutant and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions.

TCX* - TIANJIN CLIMATE EXCHANGE (TCX) is a joint venture of Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX),China National Petroleum Corporation Asset Management Corporation (CNPC-AM) and Tianjin Property Rights Exchange (TPRE), TCX is the first integrated multi-product environmental exchange in China. *The site was down at the time of writing, so the link is to the CCX news of its opening. Suffice to say it is on the same model as those above. The CCX even states as much.

ICX* - India Climate Exchange (ICX). The goal of this effort is to enable entities in India to become involved in greenhouse gas reductions integrated with emissions trading, for the purposes of climate change mitigation, institution building and social development. *Under current development according to the CCX website.

Yes this is a global system.... Conflict of interest? You bet.... Monopolization? Most definitely....

These *******s are no better than pirates...... And you want to talk about ethics? THe very same Big Oil they claim is trying to block them in the media, are some of the largest contributors and biggest backers of this. THey don't want to stop this they are ready and invested in it. Some big bad boogey man they got there... Investors not just any investors but some of the biggest ones... When we go to CCX and look for investors we find a list of big names but only those who wish to be named are on it. For some reason BP, Exxon, and the rest are not listed any longer.... Odd.... monsanto was removed after the bovine growth hormone issue came public..... odd again...

From their partners page; a short list follow the link for a longer one...

Members of CCX

Petrochemicals
LANXESS Elastomeros do Brasil S.A. (petrochemicals are petroleum derived chemicals)

Vessels Coal Gas Inc.

Dow Corning*

DuPont

FMC Corporation

Potash Corporation

Rhodia Energy Brasil Ltda

U.S. Salt, LLC

Rolls-Royce

United Technologies Corporation

Ford Motor Company

Thats a very short representation, the list on the site is astounding and remember those are only the ones wanting to be listed. We have electric companies who burn coal already set up in this to trade for more credits and or turn their unused credits into cash...

This is the most heinous act of public larceny ever perpetrated on the people of this planet by its so-called leaders. make no mistake, a CO2 cap and trade bill will in effect be a tax on life.

They will not stop using fossil fuels when they can make double the money from burning them. And its insane to think they will. Even if there are good people with good intentions in the mix, the market will be dominated by market types. THe same types who bring about the savings and loan scams, the real estate crash, wall street raiding, and the list goes on.

That is the reality of this. like it or not.... When and or IF we find an alternative fuel that is sustainable and viable that does not create CO2, do you really think they will let this go after years of it making them untold wealth? Do honestly in your mind feel that these business people will stop charging for the product and the result no matter what CO2 levels are? If you really believe that than god help you before you sell us all.....

All of this is not hidden, it is just not talked about publicly. It's real you have the links and all the info you need to look into it for yourself. I implore you, every one to please look into this yourselves. Do not take my word or the media's word on this. it's too big and too all-inclusive to trust the media any media. look for yourself you have the links you have the info, and you obviously have the internet. All you need to do is follow the links I gave you to the companies own sites and see for yourself....

please take off your party politics and global warming hats and goggles and go and see for yourself, then decide...... This will be a tax on life, and thats too big a deal to leave to any one to decide for you...
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"Part of the issue is that the science behind AGW is over." -PMZ

"I agree that science is never over."-PMZ, from the same thread...



"Before Einstein, scientists stated the energy could not be created nor destroyed. After Einstein, that was ammended by the addition of, "by ordinary means", neglecting of course that on a universal scale there is nothing more ordinary than nuclear fusion." -PMZ explaining his version of conservation of energy..
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