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08-05-2009, 11:44 AM
|  | Supporting Member Member #19762  | | Join Date: Jun 2009
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Rep Power: 85 | | | The House and the Senate deliberately pen bills that are hard to understand so people will not actually know what the full consequences of passage are. It is Obama's plan to end up with a single payer system (no insurance company competition).
Obama is only being a good Marxist...what else can he do?
Give him a chance...and he'll take it. |
08-05-2009, 11:46 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Immanuel 
Quote: Originally Posted by N4mddissent
snip...
So basically your comment, "you have to go public option" is just ignorance or bullshit as far as I can tell. Did you really come to that conclusion on your own? Perhaps I'm wrong. I will be more than happy to apologize if you would just quote the section that led you to this conclusion. I am fallible and may have missed it.
I completely disagree with your assessment.
The fact is right there in your post. Private insurers will simply not be able to write new policies. No new policies = no new business. Eventually, with people moving from job to job and employers shopping around, insurers will lose their clout and have no leg with which to negotiate with hospitals and their costs (if not all of ours) will go up. Within just a few years the insurance companies will be bankrupt and we will all be begging the government not to ration our doses of laxatives.
Immie sorry, bulloney!
The private insurance sector, once this bill takes hold, opens all of their NEW POLICIES under the new health insurance reform plan....which means they HAVE TO COVER existing conditions, they have to be clear on what they do cover so there is no surprise at the hospital, they have to offer end of life counseling IF the patient requests it and the insurance has to pay for this counseling....and a number of other things....that the insurance company has already agreed to with Congress....
If you have an existing policy with the Insurance company, then your plan is "grandfathered" and these GOOD CHANGES imo, do not have to take hold for 5 years...so instead of a 1 year policy, which is what most all insurance plans are writen as...you can keep your same policy for 5 years if you want it....which I really wouldn't want to keep my old policy, I would want the benefits of the new policy that came with reforms that are positive for us.
then after this 5 year period of those that were granfathered in with their existing policies will have to go to an INSURANCE PLAN in the private sector that meets all of the REQUIREMENTS that came with the healthcare insurance reform bill....
simple as that....  |
08-05-2009, 11:46 AM
|  | Eh... Member #19851 | | Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: IL
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Rep Power: 24 | | Quote: Where are the protests?
Now that word is getting out about the tactics being used by the right maybe there will be some.
__________________  If BP isn't allowed to destroy the environment with impunity, how can any of us be free?
Last edited by EriktheRed; 08-05-2009 at 02:03 PM.
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08-05-2009, 11:53 AM
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Rep Power: 76 | | | App. 80% of Americans have health insurance. Of that number, nearly 80% are very happy with their coverage - so there is no real incentive to protest in favor of legislation that could alter the satisfaction of the vast majority of Americans regarding their private health insurance - in essence, there was never a "health care crisis".
As to rising costs, that could be remedied far more easily, and cheaply, with reforms at the state level where health care is currently regulated. (And if you think the costs are high when the state governments are handling the issue, how in the hell do you think the feds will make it any better?) Simply require that states compete with one another - allow people to shop policies from state to state. This would create even more competition within the market, and further incentivise lower cost policies. At present, competition resides within your state of residence, and in some cases, there are but a handful of insurance carriers that dominate the market and set price.
Vast reforms of Medicare and Medicaid are also essential - two federal programs that are among the greatest contributors to rising health costs in America... |
08-05-2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Care4all
Quote: Originally Posted by Immanuel
Quote: Originally Posted by N4mddissent
snip...
So basically your comment, "you have to go public option" is just ignorance or bullshit as far as I can tell. Did you really come to that conclusion on your own? Perhaps I'm wrong. I will be more than happy to apologize if you would just quote the section that led you to this conclusion. I am fallible and may have missed it.
I completely disagree with your assessment.
The fact is right there in your post. Private insurers will simply not be able to write new policies. No new policies = no new business. Eventually, with people moving from job to job and employers shopping around, insurers will lose their clout and have no leg with which to negotiate with hospitals and their costs (if not all of ours) will go up. Within just a few years the insurance companies will be bankrupt and we will all be begging the government not to ration our doses of laxatives.
Immie sorry, bulloney!
The private insurance sector, once this bill takes hold, opens all of their NEW POLICIES under the new health insurance reform plan....which means they HAVE TO COVER existing conditions, they have to be clear on what they do cover so there is no surprise at the hospital, they have to offer end of life counseling IF the patient requests it and the insurance has to pay for this counseling....and a number of other things....that the insurance company has already agreed to with Congress....
If you have an existing policy with the Insurance company, then your plan is "grandfathered" and these GOOD CHANGES imo, do not have to take hold for 5 years...so instead of a 1 year policy, which is what most all insurance plans are writen as...you can keep your same policy for 5 years if you want it....which I really wouldn't want to keep my old policy, I would want the benefits of the new policy that came with reforms that are positive for us.
then after this 5 year period of those that were granfathered in with their existing policies will have to go to an INSURANCE PLAN in the private sector that meets all of the REQUIREMENTS that came with the healthcare insurance reform bill....
simple as that.... Sorry,
They have simply become another tool of the government. There will be no reason for private insurers to exist... no competition... no reason to take the risk of being in business and no reason to exist. Buh Bye!
Simple as that.
Immie
__________________
"To confess you were wrong yesterday, is only to acknowledge that you are a little wiser today; and instead of being a reflection on yourself, it is an honor to your judgment, and shows that you are improving in the knowledge of the truth." Charles H. Spurgeon in his sermon on Election.
Last edited by Immanuel; 08-05-2009 at 11:57 AM.
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08-05-2009, 11:56 AM
|  | Republic of Texas Member #19381 | | Join Date: May 2009
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Quote: Originally Posted by N4mddissent Quote: On page 16 of the House bill: private insurance will become illegal. Insurance companies cannot write new policies, people will lose their existing policy if they change jobs, if they change coverage, or if they change prices. Once any aspect of your private health insurance changes after this bill goes into effect, you can't renew it. You have to go public option. Okay, I took the time to read this section and I'm not sure how you came to that understanding.
Starting on page 16, the section in question states the rules for maintaining current coverage (rules to "grandfather" current coverage). It states that you can maintain your current coverage as long as: You already have your coverage the day before the bill goes into effect and dependents of those who have coverage on the day before the bill goes into effect can also be covered.
If the insurance company attempts to change your policy or increase your rates- except for general premium increases approved by the insurance commissioner- then the policy loses its grandfathered status.
(Since a reduction in benefits or a hike in your premium would in effect change the current policy the individual chose to keep, they have not kept the same coverage due to the actions of the insurance company, not the government. I believe this is primarily intended to dissuade insurance companies from abusing customers who choose to stay with them.)
There is a 5 year grace period for current employment based health plans. After the 5 year period, they must meet the standards of a qualified health plan, including the essential benefits package.
(Part of the healthcare bill establishes minimal standards for insurance coverage which insurance companies must meet. This is a quality control measure to prevent health insurance from leaving large gaps in coverage, creating policy holders that are little better than uninsured, or not covering serious conditions that often are the biggest financial strain on hospitals and citizens.)
Individual policies that are not grandfathered, can only be purchased through the Health Insurance Exchange.
(The Health Insurance Exchange is a program which will be a one-stop shop for health insurance. It will require standardization of benefits packages so it is easier to compare prices and content. Plans purchased through the exchange will be subsidized to lower cost for individuals making up to 400% of the poverty level- about $43,000 for individuals, $88,000 for a family of four. The public plan option will also be offered through the Exchange, but would be just one option and not required for anyone to purchase or required to receive subsidized coverage.) So basically your comment, "you have to go public option" is just ignorance or bullshit as far as I can tell. Did you really come to that conclusion on your own? Perhaps I'm wrong. I will be more than happy to apologize if you would just quote the section that led you to this conclusion. I am fallible and may have missed it. Quote: "Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1" Which means, you can all keep your coverage, just as promised with exceptions. Those who currently have private coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.
__________________
“Texas will again lift it's head and stand among the nations. It ought to do so, for no country upon the globe can compare with it in natural advantages.” --Sam Houston-- |
08-05-2009, 12:08 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lonestar_logic
Quote: Originally Posted by N4mddissent Quote: On page 16 of the House bill: private insurance will become illegal. Insurance companies cannot write new policies, people will lose their existing policy if they change jobs, if they change coverage, or if they change prices. Once any aspect of your private health insurance changes after this bill goes into effect, you can't renew it. You have to go public option. Okay, I took the time to read this section and I'm not sure how you came to that understanding.
Starting on page 16, the section in question states the rules for maintaining current coverage (rules to "grandfather" current coverage). It states that you can maintain your current coverage as long as: You already have your coverage the day before the bill goes into effect and dependents of those who have coverage on the day before the bill goes into effect can also be covered.
If the insurance company attempts to change your policy or increase your rates- except for general premium increases approved by the insurance commissioner- then the policy loses its grandfathered status.
(Since a reduction in benefits or a hike in your premium would in effect change the current policy the individual chose to keep, they have not kept the same coverage due to the actions of the insurance company, not the government. I believe this is primarily intended to dissuade insurance companies from abusing customers who choose to stay with them.)
There is a 5 year grace period for current employment based health plans. After the 5 year period, they must meet the standards of a qualified health plan, including the essential benefits package.
(Part of the healthcare bill establishes minimal standards for insurance coverage which insurance companies must meet. This is a quality control measure to prevent health insurance from leaving large gaps in coverage, creating policy holders that are little better than uninsured, or not covering serious conditions that often are the biggest financial strain on hospitals and citizens.)
Individual policies that are not grandfathered, can only be purchased through the Health Insurance Exchange.
(The Health Insurance Exchange is a program which will be a one-stop shop for health insurance. It will require standardization of benefits packages so it is easier to compare prices and content. Plans purchased through the exchange will be subsidized to lower cost for individuals making up to 400% of the poverty level- about $43,000 for individuals, $88,000 for a family of four. The public plan option will also be offered through the Exchange, but would be just one option and not required for anyone to purchase or required to receive subsidized coverage.) So basically your comment, "you have to go public option" is just ignorance or bullshit as far as I can tell. Did you really come to that conclusion on your own? Perhaps I'm wrong. I will be more than happy to apologize if you would just quote the section that led you to this conclusion. I am fallible and may have missed it. Quote: "Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1" Which means, you can all keep your coverage, just as promised with exceptions. Those who currently have private coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers. Where does it say that people will not be able to buy individual plans from private carriers? The portion you just quoted states that if you are not grandfathered in, you must purchase your insurance through the Exchange. It can still be an individual plan from a private carrier. The Exchange is just a clearinghouse that has rules for standardizing benefits packages so that consumers can more easily compare policies offered by various private insurance companies and also compare it to the public option.
So, once again, where does it say you must take the public option? That was your original claim. Or were you mistaken?
__________________
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.
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08-05-2009, 12:19 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sinatra App. 80% of Americans have health insurance. Of that number, nearly 80% are very happy with their coverage - so there is no real incentive to protest in favor of legislation that could alter the satisfaction of the vast majority of Americans regarding their private health insurance - in essence, there was never a "health care crisis".
As to rising costs, that could be remedied far more easily, and cheaply, with reforms at the state level where health care is currently regulated. (And if you think the costs are high when the state governments are handling the issue, how in the hell do you think the feds will make it any better?) Simply require that states compete with one another - allow people to shop policies from state to state. This would create even more competition within the market, and further incentivise lower cost policies. At present, competition resides within your state of residence, and in some cases, there are but a handful of insurance carriers that dominate the market and set price.
Vast reforms of Medicare and Medicaid are also essential - two federal programs that are among the greatest contributors to rising health costs in America... ,,, |
08-05-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Immanuel
Quote: Originally Posted by Care4all
Quote: Originally Posted by Immanuel
I completely disagree with your assessment.
The fact is right there in your post. Private insurers will simply not be able to write new policies. No new policies = no new business. Eventually, with people moving from job to job and employers shopping around, insurers will lose their clout and have no leg with which to negotiate with hospitals and their costs (if not all of ours) will go up. Within just a few years the insurance companies will be bankrupt and we will all be begging the government not to ration our doses of laxatives.
Immie
sorry, bulloney!
The private insurance sector, once this bill takes hold, opens all of their NEW POLICIES under the new health insurance reform plan....which means they HAVE TO COVER existing conditions, they have to be clear on what they do cover so there is no surprise at the hospital, they have to offer end of life counseling IF the patient requests it and the insurance has to pay for this counseling....and a number of other things....that the insurance company has already agreed to with Congress....
If you have an existing policy with the Insurance company, then your plan is "grandfathered" and these GOOD CHANGES imo, do not have to take hold for 5 years...so instead of a 1 year policy, which is what most all insurance plans are writen as...you can keep your same policy for 5 years if you want it....which I really wouldn't want to keep my old policy, I would want the benefits of the new policy that came with reforms that are positive for us.
then after this 5 year period of those that were granfathered in with their existing policies will have to go to an INSURANCE PLAN in the private sector that meets all of the REQUIREMENTS that came with the healthcare insurance reform bill....
simple as that.... Sorry,
They have simply become another tool of the government. There will be no reason for private insurers to exist... no competition... no reason to take the risk of being in business and no reason to exist. Buh Bye!
Simple as that.
Immie and where does the facts and reasoning come in to play with this decision and conclusion of yours? and please don't just parrot a bunch of partisan crapola!  i really want to know specifics immie!
how about a decent conversation and debate with some facts present?
care |
08-05-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by N4mddissent
Quote: Originally Posted by Lonestar_logic
Quote: Originally Posted by N4mddissent
Okay, I took the time to read this section and I'm not sure how you came to that understanding.
Starting on page 16, the section in question states the rules for maintaining current coverage (rules to "grandfather" current coverage). It states that you can maintain your current coverage as long as: You already have your coverage the day before the bill goes into effect and dependents of those who have coverage on the day before the bill goes into effect can also be covered.
If the insurance company attempts to change your policy or increase your rates- except for general premium increases approved by the insurance commissioner- then the policy loses its grandfathered status.
(Since a reduction in benefits or a hike in your premium would in effect change the current policy the individual chose to keep, they have not kept the same coverage due to the actions of the insurance company, not the government. I believe this is primarily intended to dissuade insurance companies from abusing customers who choose to stay with them.)
There is a 5 year grace period for current employment based health plans. After the 5 year period, they must meet the standards of a qualified health plan, including the essential benefits package.
(Part of the healthcare bill establishes minimal standards for insurance coverage which insurance companies must meet. This is a quality control measure to prevent health insurance from leaving large gaps in coverage, creating policy holders that are little better than uninsured, or not covering serious conditions that often are the biggest financial strain on hospitals and citizens.)
Individual policies that are not grandfathered, can only be purchased through the Health Insurance Exchange.
(The Health Insurance Exchange is a program which will be a one-stop shop for health insurance. It will require standardization of benefits packages so it is easier to compare prices and content. Plans purchased through the exchange will be subsidized to lower cost for individuals making up to 400% of the poverty level- about $43,000 for individuals, $88,000 for a family of four. The public plan option will also be offered through the Exchange, but would be just one option and not required for anyone to purchase or required to receive subsidized coverage.) So basically your comment, "you have to go public option" is just ignorance or bullshit as far as I can tell. Did you really come to that conclusion on your own? Perhaps I'm wrong. I will be more than happy to apologize if you would just quote the section that led you to this conclusion. I am fallible and may have missed it. Quote: "Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1" Which means, you can all keep your coverage, just as promised with exceptions. Those who currently have private coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers. Where does it say that people will not be able to buy individual plans from private carriers? The portion you just quoted states that if you are not grandfathered in, you must purchase your insurance through the Exchange. It can still be an individual plan from a private carrier. The Exchange is just a clearinghouse that has rules for standardizing benefits packages so that consumers can more easily compare policies offered by various private insurance companies and also compare it to the public option.
So, once again, where does it say you must take the public option? That was your original claim. Or were you mistaken? Once health coverage is mandated and it will be, what other option is there once they make private insurance illegal. The problem here is you're only seeing one paragraph and not seeing the entire proposal. Not all insurance policies are the same and there will be a governing body who decides which coverage is adequate and which is not. You will be required to show proof of coverage every year and if you fail to provide adequate coverage or you do not have coverage, you will be fined and enrolled into the public option program. You have no choice in the matter, it will become law.
Here's an article that lays out what you're asking and it's exactly what I've been saying. IBD: Individual Private Health Insurance Illegal Under House Bill | NewsBusters.org
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08-05-2009, 12:37 PM
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08-05-2009, 12:42 PM
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08-05-2009, 12:47 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Care4all
Quote: Originally Posted by Immanuel
Quote: Originally Posted by Care4all
sorry, bulloney!
The private insurance sector, once this bill takes hold, opens all of their NEW POLICIES under the new health insurance reform plan....which means they HAVE TO COVER existing conditions, they have to be clear on what they do cover so there is no surprise at the hospital, they have to offer end of life counseling IF the patient requests it and the insurance has to pay for this counseling....and a number of other things....that the insurance company has already agreed to with Congress....
If you have an existing policy with the Insurance company, then your plan is "grandfathered" and these GOOD CHANGES imo, do not have to take hold for 5 years...so instead of a 1 year policy, which is what most all insurance plans are writen as...you can keep your same policy for 5 years if you want it....which I really wouldn't want to keep my old policy, I would want the benefits of the new policy that came with reforms that are positive for us.
then after this 5 year period of those that were granfathered in with their existing policies will have to go to an INSURANCE PLAN in the private sector that meets all of the REQUIREMENTS that came with the healthcare insurance reform bill....
simple as that....
Sorry,
They have simply become another tool of the government. There will be no reason for private insurers to exist... no competition... no reason to take the risk of being in business and no reason to exist. Buh Bye!
Simple as that.
Immie and where does the facts and reasoning come in to play with this decision and conclusion of yours? and please don't just parrot a bunch of partisan crapola! i really want to know specifics immie!
how about a decent conversation and debate with some facts present?
care You are asking for facts?
The only facts we have today is what is in the bill itself AND what the politicians tell us this bill does. Today they tell us, "this is not meant to drive private insurance companies out of business", but then you look at the bill and you read it as plain as the nose on your face and what do you see... "No new policies may be written after Y1 D1".
Any fool can see that "No new policies may be written after Y1 D1" means the death of competition and the death of the private insurer.
Why would a private insurer take the risk associated with running (and you know as well as I do that there are risks) a business in which they can not control either their costs or the revenue they are allowed to charge for a policy? Plain and simple... they won't.
Immie
__________________
"To confess you were wrong yesterday, is only to acknowledge that you are a little wiser today; and instead of being a reflection on yourself, it is an honor to your judgment, and shows that you are improving in the knowledge of the truth." Charles H. Spurgeon in his sermon on Election. |
08-05-2009, 01:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Avatar4321 If America wants this health care "reform" so badly, why arent people protesting these politicians to get them to pass it. Instead we see the exact opposite.
If there are protests against, and none for, why do our politicians think its such a good idea to push this through Congress? America does not want this HC reform.The protests are being addressed by letter email and phone to the reps of the citizens.
Reform is needed, forced political reform is not the way to do it. |
08-05-2009, 02:30 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Immanuel
Quote: Originally Posted by N4mddissent
snip...
So basically your comment, "you have to go public option" is just ignorance or bullshit as far as I can tell. Did you really come to that conclusion on your own? Perhaps I'm wrong. I will be more than happy to apologize if you would just quote the section that led you to this conclusion. I am fallible and may have missed it.
I completely disagree with your assessment.
The fact is right there in your post. Private insurers will simply not be able to write new policies. No new policies = no new business. Eventually, with people moving from job to job and employers shopping around, insurers will lose their clout and have no leg with which to negotiate with hospitals and their costs (if not all of ours) will go up. Within just a few years the insurance companies will be bankrupt and we will all be begging the government not to ration our doses of laxatives.
Immie This is why you people get into trouble trying to pick only portions to rail about. That section dealt with rules for maintaining current coverage only. What part of that can't you grasp? It isn't talking about new insurance (insurers); it isn't talking about eliminating anyone's option to shop around. It is talking about 'grandfathering' the private insurance benefits you already have with the insurance provider you already have, period. | | |
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